The Issue of Limited Atonement

[Presby02]

You can't show one but at least you admitted the contradictions with your theology

Never said any such thing.

There are many, to many. Want a few??

 

[Presby02]

It was not there

So. See if the Trinity is there or LFW

 

[TomL]

Never said any such thing.

There are many, to many. Want a few??

sure you did with

"So also"

Do your best

 

[Presby02]

sure you did with

"So also"

Do your best

Well let's see. Christ takes away the sin of the whole world yet some are still accountable for what?

 

[TibiasDad]

He was murdered by those who nailed Him to the cross. He was a innocent man.

What part of “no man takes my life” is hard to understand?

Doug

 

[Presby02]

What part of “no man takes my life” is hard to understand?

Doug

A man did not take His life? Who nailed him to the cross? Asking for a friend

 

[TibiasDad]

Read Isiah 53 and get back to us. That's alot of suffering for someone who did no wrong. Why did He suffer those things?

Easy on the popcorn.

Suffering is not necessarily because of wrath. Your logical errors are unending.


Doug

 

[Rockson]

Still waiting on what Isiah 53 is exactly.

Let's see, he was smitten by God. What's that mean?

Crushed by the Lord? What's that mean

Suffering servant? Suffering what exactly?

He was suffering the judgement of God as a substitute. But does that have to mean that God was angry at Jesus and out of God's angry he experienced wrath. I'd say no. God does have anger and he does have wrath but he's slow to anger but anger is directed towards one's who rebel against God's will. But this is one of those things that it's impossible for God to do somethings....like lie or create a square hole.

There's some things that are impossible for God to do and to be actually angry and to have wrath from God's emotions is IMPOSSIBLE to occur for one who is doing he will! You recall Jesus even said Not my will but your will be done? So are we to believe that Jesus obeyed God's word (by going to the cross) and there's this anger and rage God has built up within him now towards one who is doing his will? I believe however that Jesus experienced the judgement from God that is as a substitute but that's what it's all about. Substitution. Jesus received the judgement so that we could go free!

 

[Presby02]

Suffering is not necessarily because of wrath. Your logical errors are unending.


Doug

Not necessarily, but can be. I guess logic is not your strong suit?

This from the guy who claims a foreseen certain choice could still be a different?

 

[Presby02]

He was suffering the judgement of God as a substitute. But does that have to mean that God was angry at Jesus and out of God's angry he experienced wrath. I'd say no. God does have anger and he does have wrath but he's slow to anger but anger is directed towards one's who rebel against God's will. But this is one of those things that it's impossible for God to do somethings....like lie or create a square hole.

There's some things that are impossible for God to do and to be actually angry and to have wrath from God's emotions is IMPOSSIBLE to occur for one who is doing he will! You recall Jesus even said Not my will but your will be done? So are we to believe that Jesus obeyed God's word (by going to the cross) and there's this anger and rage God has built up within him now towards one who is doing his will? I believe however that Jesus experienced the judgement from God that is as a substitute but that's what it's all about. Substitution. Jesus received the judgement so that we could go free!

And that judgement was what?

 

[TibiasDad]

A man did not take His life? Who nailed him to the cross? Asking for a friend

So you’re calling Jesus a liar?

Murder is when the victim can’t stop or survive another’s attack. Jesus had the capacity to stop any attempt on his life, and the Bible gives several accounts of this happening. But the Father’s plan required Jesus’s death, therefore Jesus willing came to earth to give his life for us.

I understand your perspective, and don’t wish to argue over such a trivial difference. Technically speaking, Pilate had the power to sentence him to death- which Jesus acknowledged had been given him by God. Thus, it was a legal matter and cannot be classified as murder, regardless of his innocence, because Jesus knew what he was doing and willingly gave up his right to argue against or stop it.

Doug

 

[Eleazar]

A man did not take His life? Who nailed him to the cross? Asking for a friend

No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.” John 10:18

Jesus willingly laid down His life to save us from our sins (John 10:17–19), took the punishment we deserved for our sin, and reconciled us to God (2 Corinthians 5:21). The atonement of Christ was prophesied in Isaiah 53:5: “But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed.” Because of God’s great love, He provided the only way to redeem all who would believe in Him. Yet God did not allow death to have the final say, but He raised Jesus from the dead (Acts 2:24; Psalm 16:10). Got?

Ultimately, all of humanity is guilty of killing Jesus.

 

[Presby02]

So you’re calling Jesus a liar?

Murder is when the victim can’t stop or survive another’s attack. Jesus had the capacity to stop any attempt on his life, and the Bible gives several accounts of this happening. But the Father’s plan required Jesus’s death, therefore Jesus willing came to earth to give his life for us.

I understand your perspective, and don’t wish to argue over such a trivial difference. Technically speaking, Pilate had the power to sentence him to death- which Jesus acknowledged had been given him by God. Thus, it was a legal matter and cannot be classified as murder, regardless of his innocence, because Jesus knew what he was doing and willingly gave up his right to argue against or stop it.

Doug

The people who crucified Him committed murder. He was innocent and committed no offense. Hence they were held accountable. Because of the intent of their heart. Whether He could call down 10,000 angels or not.

If you don't wish to argue it then drop it.

 

[Presby02]

No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.” John 10:18

Jesus willingly laid down His life to save us from our sins (John 10:17–19), took the punishment we deserved for our sin, and reconciled us to God (2 Corinthians 5:21). The atonement of Christ was prophesied in Isaiah 53:5: “But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed.” Because of God’s great love, He provided the only way to redeem all who would believe in Him. Yet God did not allow death to have the final say, but He raised Jesus from the dead (Acts 2:24; Psalm 16:10). Got?

Ultimately, all of humanity is guilty of killing Jesus.

Amen

 

[Eleazar]

So you’re calling Jesus a liar?

Murder is when the victim can’t stop or survive another’s attack. Jesus had the capacity to stop any attempt on his life, and the Bible gives several accounts of this happening. But the Father’s plan required Jesus’s death, therefore Jesus willing came to earth to give his life for us.

I understand your perspective, and don’t wish to argue over such a trivial difference. Technically speaking, Pilate had the power to sentence him to death- which Jesus acknowledged had been given him by God. Thus, it was a legal matter and cannot be classified as murder, regardless of his innocence, because Jesus knew what he was doing and willingly gave up his right to argue against or stop it.

Doug

What you say is true, But also the charges that were levied against him were trumped-up, no pun intended.

violating the Sabbath law (by healing on the Sabbath); threatening to destroy the Jewish Temple; practicing sorcery, exorcising people by the power of demons; and claiming to be the Messiah.

Jesus did not directly state the words "I am the Messiah" or "I am God"1. However, Jesus did claim to be the Messiah of Israel and the Son of God2. Jesus acknowledged His messiahship a number of times in the New Testament,

 

[TibiasDad]

Not necessarily, but can be. I guess logic is not your strong suit?

But you don’t acknowledge the possibility that it might not be wrath, Presby02. Wrath is not the only legitimate interpretation.

This from the guy who claims a foreseen certain choice could still be a different?

And you are making a straw man argument. The argument that a foreseen outcome cannot be any different is not to say that something else could not have been foreseen. They are separate questions.

Foreseeing something is a view of the end, like reading a published book. What’s published and before your eyes cannot be changed, it is, as the Bible often says, written. But that doesn’t mean that the author of the book could not have used different words than what he finally wrote.

So yes, what God foresees as final cannot be changed, but that doesn’t mean what could be foreseen is the only thing that could have been foreseen.

You don’t seem to be able to acknowledge that possibility, so I’m not the one that fails to understand the whole logic of the question.

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Ultimately, all of humanity is guilty of killing Jesus.

Ultimately all of humanities guilt is the reason Jesus was killed. I would have a hard time saying that Mary, his mother, would have been guilty of killing her son. That certainly wasn’t what she wanted.

Doug

 

[brightfame52]

You continue to run from rebuttal

1 Timothy 2:4–6
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned every one to his own way; And the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
John 6:51
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
2 Corinthians 5:14–15
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
John 11:51
And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

which indicates you twist scripture

Those the elect

 

[Rockson]

Or to put it another way I think God knows the place is real....that he can bring judgment and take care of that situation without having to feel anger or wrath. In fact here's what encouraged Jesus and I believe the Father as well.....Jesus said for the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. Heb 12;2 Jesus had the joy set before him of all of born again children of God who would become such because of his work on he cross. I believe God the Father was highly appreciative of Jesus doing this as well so how can you muster up anger and feelings of wrath towards the one who was going to make all this possible? I don't believe you can. Jesus however received the judgement for sin for us. He died as our substitute.

 

[Administrator]

If you don't wish to argue it then drop it.

This seems to be where you're confused as we're not here to argue. You're free to post your beliefs and tell us why you hold to those beliefs but if you want to argue about what you believe you're in the wrong place. Feel free to debate just don't make it personal.