The Issue of Limited Atonement

[civic]

I think it might be a lack of willingness to hear

Agreed I was just having some fun with their doctrine

 

[TomL]

Agreed I was just having some fun with their doctrine

Ok

 

[Johann]

Ok

Are you agreeing with him that "having some fun with their doctrines" is the acceptable norm and is Christlike? I hope not.

 

[Rockson]

Are you agreeing with him that "having some fun with their doctrines" is the acceptable norm and is Christlike? I hope not.

I think we can actually see Jesus do this one time though.....

To what can I compare this generation? They are like children sitting in the marketplaces and calling out to others:17“ ‘We played the pipe for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge, and you did not mourn.’18For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon.’ 19The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.’ But wisdom is proved right by her deeds.” Matt 11:16

I'm not saying Jesus actually did this all the time but this was a time where it seems like he did. He created a story which in turn would reveal to them how ridiculous his critics were being so yes he was making fun of their doctrine. Not to be malicious but rather for them to see the truth and wake them up.

 

[Johann]

I think we can actually see Jesus do this one time though.....

To what can I compare this generation? They are like children sitting in the marketplaces and calling out to others:17“ ‘We played the pipe for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge, and you did not mourn.’18For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon.’ 19The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.’ But wisdom is proved right by her deeds.” Matt 11:16

I'm not saying Jesus actually did this all the time but this was a time where it seems like he did. He created a story which in turn would reveal to them how ridiculous his critics were being so yes he was making fun of their doctrine. Not to be malicious but rather for them to see the truth and wake them up.

Mostly with them-right? If we go by context.
Pharisees:

Hebrew: פְּרוּשִׁים (Perushim)
Sadducees:

Hebrew: צְדוּקִים (Tz'dukim)
Members of the Sanhedrin:

The Sanhedrin was composed of various religious leaders, including Pharisees, Sadducees, and other prominent figures. The Hebrew word "סַנְהֶדְרִין" (Sanhedrin) itself refers to the assembly or council of elders. The individual members would be referred to by their respective group names: Pharisees as פְּרוּשִׁים (Perushim) and Sadducees as צְדוּקִים (Tz'dukim), along with any other titles or positions they held within the council.

In Matthew 11:16-19, Jesus is using a metaphor to illustrate the stubbornness and inconsistency of the people of His generation in responding to the message of God.

The metaphor compares the people of Jesus' time to children playing in the marketplace. Just as children play games, these people are unable to respond appropriately to the different messages presented to them. Jesus describes how they are like children who refuse to join in the games no matter what is offered to them. If music is played for them to dance, they do not dance; if a funeral song is sung for them to mourn, they do not mourn. In other words, they are obstinate and resistant regardless of the circumstance.

Then, Jesus applies this metaphor to the response to the ministries of John the Baptist and Himself. John the Baptist lived an ascetic lifestyle, abstaining from certain foods and drinks, and his message was one of repentance. However, instead of responding to his call for repentance, the people accused him of having a demon, rejecting his message.

On the other hand, Jesus came with a different approach. He associated with people from various backgrounds, including tax collectors and sinners, and His message emphasized love, forgiveness, and salvation. Yet, despite His compassionate approach, the people criticized Him, accusing Him of being a glutton and a drunkard, and associating with the wrong crowd.

In summary, Jesus is highlighting the inconsistency and stubbornness of the people in responding to the messages of both John the Baptist and Himself. No matter how the message is presented, whether through a call to repentance or through love and acceptance, the people refuse to heed it. This passage serves as a warning about the danger of hardening one's heart and rejecting God's message, regardless of how it is delivered.

--but now after the resurrection of Messiah and the indwelling Ruach HaKodesh I don't think believers are to crack jokes or poking fun at "the erroneous doctrines of others" @Rockson since we don't have our doctrines 100% correct-right?
Just affirm if you agree with me or not-that's all I ask, honesty and transparency-truth.
Johann.

 

[TomL]

Are you agreeing with him that "having some fun with their doctrines" is the acceptable norm and is Christlike? I hope not.

The OK simply meant I understand, but why so one way critical.

Why balk over such while remaining silent in the face of overt ad hominem

 

[civic]

I think we can actually see Jesus do this one time though.....

To what can I compare this generation? They are like children sitting in the marketplaces and calling out to others:17“ ‘We played the pipe for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge, and you did not mourn.’18For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon.’ 19The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.’ But wisdom is proved right by her deeds.” Matt 11:16

I'm not saying Jesus actually did this all the time but this was a time where it seems like he did. He created a story which in turn would reveal to them how ridiculous his critics were being so yes he was making fun of their doctrine. Not to be malicious but rather for them to see the truth and wake them up.

Yes using their own doctrines on them , what’s wrong with that ?

Nothing

 

[Johann]

The OK simply meant I understand, but why so one way critical.

Why balk over such while remaining silent in the face of overt ad hominem

I am far from being critical or resorting to ad hominem @TomL all I am looking for is to have fellowship-without cracking jokes or poking fun at other believers "doctrines"
Correct?

 

[TomL]

I am far from being critical or resorting to ad hominem @TomL all I am looking for is to have fellowship-without cracking jokes or poking fun at other believers "doctrines"
Correct?

I never stated you indulged in ad hominem. I am stating some of the Calvinist or Calvinist leaning posters have done so without an objection on your part

Be consistent

 

[Rockson]

I am far from being critical or resorting to ad hominem @TomL all I am looking for is to have fellowship-without cracking jokes or poking fun at other believers "doctrines"
Correct?

Sorry but some Calvinistic doctrines when they're advocating T.U.L.I.P deserve no respect and they should be flung away from one with a force like you might see a person throw a Frisbee away on a beach with all might and determination . They grieve the Spirit of God and should be ejected from one's life .

If you play around and pet these things like leaving the impression that all is fine and we just see things differently on issues when it comes to whether God loves all sinners or not making it seem like he doesn't and we're told to show respect to that? Nope not going to happen at least with me. By doing so you can clamp a cloud of depression and despair over one's life who have a very wrong view of God that he truly wants them delivered from such ways of thinking. And PS that doesn't mean I don't love those who hold those views but I think they need to know how off they really are.

 

[civic]

Sorry but some Calvinistic doctrines when they're advocating T.U.L.I.P deserve no respect and they should be flung away from one with a force like you might see a person throw a Frisbee away on a beach with all might and determination . They grieve the Spirit of God and should be ejected from one's life .

If you play around and pet these things like leaving the impression that all is fine and we just see things differently on issues when it comes to whether God loves all sinners or not making it seem like he doesn't and we're told to show respect to that? Nope not going to happen at least with me. By doing so you can clamp a cloud of depression and despair over one's life who have a very wrong view of God that he truly wants them delivered from such ways of thinking. And PS that doesn't mean I don't love those who hold those views but I think they need to know how off they really are.

Can’t false doctrine be considered to be leaven in a lump ?

 

[synergy]

Sorry but some Calvinistic doctrines when they're advocating T.U.L.I.P deserve no respect and they should be flung away from one with a force like you might see a person throw a Frisbee away on a beach with all might and determination . They grieve the Spirit of God and should be ejected from one's life .

If you play around and pet these things like leaving the impression that all is fine and we just see things differently on issues when it comes to whether God loves all sinners or not making it seem like he doesn't and we're told to show respect to that? Nope not going to happen at least with me. By doing so you can clamp a cloud of depression and despair over one's life who have a very wrong view of God that he truly wants them delivered from such ways of thinking. And PS that doesn't mean I don't love those who hold those views but I think they need to know how off they really are.

Hear hear! They want us to console and pamper gangrene infections. Ain't going to happen with me either!

 

[TibiasDad]

Can’t false doctrine be considered to be leaven in a lump ?

I would be very cautious about that; leaven is symbolic of sin, and sin is an action contrary to God’s law.

If one were to put forth an argument that they knew was false, then that is lying, and thus a sin. But I don’t think an interpretation, especially a long held and historic view can be held as such. After all, it could be asserted by all sides of an argument that the opposition is leaven.

I understand your point, but O think it would be rather hyperbolic to say that. Just my opinion!


Doug

 

[Rockson]

Hear hear! They want us to console and pamper gangrene infections. Ain't going to happen with me either!

And again I'd say it doesn't mean we don't love those who hold those views. Real love actually will make the strongest appeal imaginable for such ones to discard their way of thinking. I can appreciate they have perhaps a zeal for God but let it be according to knowledge of God's word Rom 10:2 for their sake and sanity. I trust and hope many will consider it.

 

[Rockson]

Can’t false doctrine be considered to be leaven in a lump ?

I would say this that Calvinistic doctrines at least when it comes to T.U.L.I.P. can bring the unlearned into becoming neutralized and unbiblically passive when it comes to recognizing the need to believe and receiving God's grace. If it does have this nullifying effect then regardless of what one calls it it needs to be removed.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

I would say this that Calvinistic doctrines at least when it comes to T.U.L.I.P. can bring the unlearned into becoming neutralized and unbiblically passive when it comes to recognizing the need to believe and receiving God's grace. If it does have this nullifying effect then regardless of what one calls it it needs to be removed.

I'm not a Calvinist, and I don't care about TULIP, but what if the Calvinists and TULIP turn out to be right and you don't find out this side of heaven? Are the anti-Calvinists prepared for that?

 

[Rockson]

I'm not a Calvinist, and I don't care about TULIP, but what if the Calvinists and TULIP turn out to be right and you don't find out this side of heaven? Are the anti-Calvinists prepared for that?

It's not right so I refuse to entertain the questions.

 

[Johann]

Sorry but some Calvinistic doctrines when they're advocating T.U.L.I.P deserve no respect and they should be flung away from one with a force like you might see a person throw a Frisbee away on a beach with all might and determination . They grieve the Spirit of God and should be ejected from one's life .

If you play around and pet these things like leaving the impression that all is fine and we just see things differently on issues when it comes to whether God loves all sinners or not making it seem like he doesn't and we're told to show respect to that? Nope not going to happen at least with me. By doing so you can clamp a cloud of depression and despair over one's life who have a very wrong view of God that he truly wants them delivered from such ways of thinking. And PS that doesn't mean I don't love those who hold those views but I think they need to know how off they really are.

Yup-please stay out of my way-you don't have the love of God within you.
Matthew 22:37-39 - "Jesus replied: 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"

This passage commands us to love our neighbors, which includes people of all faiths.
Luke 10:25-37 - The Parable of the Good Samaritan

This parable teaches us to show mercy and love to everyone, even those who are different from us, as exemplified by the Samaritan helping a Jew.
John 13:34-35 - "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."

Jesus commands us to love one another as a testimony of our discipleship, which includes loving those of different faiths.
Romans 12:18 - "If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone."

This verse encourages believers to live peacefully with all people.
Galatians 5:14 - "For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"

Loving your neighbor, regardless of their religion, fulfills the law of God.
1 Peter 3:15 - "But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect."

This passage highlights the importance of sharing our faith with gentleness and respect.
1 John 4:7-8 - "Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love."

Love is a fundamental characteristic of knowing God, and it extends to loving all people.
Colossians 3:12-14 - "Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity."

This passage encourages believers to demonstrate virtues that promote love and unity.
James 2:8 - "If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, 'Love your neighbor as yourself,' you are doing right."

Again, the command to love your neighbor is emphasized as doing what is right.
1 Corinthians 13:4-7 - "Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres."

This well-known passage defines love and encourages us to exhibit these qualities to all, including those of other faiths.
These scriptures collectively call Christians to demonstrate love, respect, and kindness towards all people, reflecting the inclusive and compassionate nature of Christ's teachings.

Please help me God not to become stale and stagnant and bitter in my old age.

 

[TomL]

I'm not a Calvinist, and I don't care about TULIP, but what if the Calvinists and TULIP turn out to be right and you don't find out this side of heaven? Are the anti-Calvinists prepared for that?

If the Calvinist were right then those who do not believe Calvinist doctrine do so because God determined it

 

[Johann]

I would be very cautious about that; leaven is symbolic of sin, and sin is an action contrary to God’s law.

If one were to put forth an argument that they knew was false, then that is lying, and thus a sin. But I don’t think an interpretation, especially a long held and historic view can be held as such. After all, it could be asserted by all sides of an argument that the opposition is leaven.

I understand your point, but O think it would be rather hyperbolic to say that. Just my opinion!


Doug

Well said @TibiasDad

Matthew 5:43-44

"You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you."
Luke 6:27-28

"But I say to you who hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you."
Romans 12:14-18

"Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them. Rejoice with those who rejoice, weep with those who weep. Live in harmony with one another. Do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly. Never be wise in your own sight. Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all. If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all."
Galatians 6:10

"So then, as we have opportunity, let us do good to everyone, and especially to those who are of the household of faith."
1 Peter 2:12

"Keep your conduct among the Gentiles honorable, so that when they speak against you as evildoers, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day of visitation."
1 Peter 3:15-16

"But in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect, having a good conscience, so that, when you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame."
1 John 4:7-8

"Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love."
1 John 4:20-21

"If anyone says, 'I love God,' and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen. And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother."
Romans 13:8-10

"Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, 'You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,' and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."
James 2:8

"If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself,' you are doing well."

These verses emphasize the importance of love, kindness, and respect towards all people, regardless of their faith, as a fundamental aspect of Christian living.

Johann