The Issue of Limited Atonement

brightfame52 said:
Those the elect
Click to expand...
Not one mentions the elect

1 Timothy 2:4–6
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned every one to his own way; And the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
John 6:51
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
2 Corinthians 5:14–15
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
John 11:51
And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

and you addressed none
 
TibiasDad said:
Ultimately all of humanities guilt is the reason Jesus was killed. I would have a hard time saying that Mary, his mother, would have been guilty of killing her son. That certainly wasn’t what she wanted.

Doug
Click to expand...
That's an interesting subject. I think Mary knew Jesus was the Messiah. Being his mother she probably knows him better than we ever will even when we see him face to face.

Orthodox and Protestants (with the exception of some Anglo-Catholics) agree that Mary identified Jesus as both her son and her Savior, and herself as his mother as well as his servant and disciple. She looked to him for her own salvation as well as the salvation of the world.

Here's an excellent study:

What Did Mary Know? Quite a Bit, It Turns Out - Logos Bible Study …​


Lyrics​

Mary, did you know
That your baby boy will one day walk on water?
Mary, did you know
That your baby boy will save our sons and daughters?
Did you know
That your baby boy has come to make you new?
This child that you've delivered
Will soon deliver you

Mary, did you know
That your baby boy will give sight to a blind man?
Mary, did you know
That your baby boy will calm a storm with His hand?
Did you know
That your baby boy has walked where angels trod?
And when you kiss your little baby
You've kissed the face of God

Mary, did you know?
The blind will see
The deaf will hear
And the dead will live again
The lame will leap
The dumb will speak
The praises of the Lamb
 
TomL said:
Not one mentions the elect

1 Timothy 2:4–6
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned every one to his own way; And the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
John 6:51
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
2 Corinthians 5:14–15
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
John 11:51
And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

and you addressed none
Click to expand...
Its a given, its the elect.
 
brightfame52 said:
Its a given, its the elect.
Click to expand...
It's you adding to scripture

Not one mentions the elect

1 Timothy 2:4–6
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned every one to his own way; And the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
John 6:51
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
2 Corinthians 5:14–15
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
John 11:51
And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

and you addressed none
 
TomL said:
It's you adding to scripture

Not one mentions the elect

1 Timothy 2:4–6
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned every one to his own way; And the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
John 6:51
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
2 Corinthians 5:14–15
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
John 11:51
And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

and you addressed none
Click to expand...
They all refer to the elect
 
Eleazar said:
That's an interesting subject. I think Mary knew Jesus was the Messiah. Being his mother she probably knows him better than we ever will even when we see him face to face.

Orthodox and Protestants (with the exception of some Anglo-Catholics) agree that Mary identified Jesus as both her son and her Savior, and herself as his mother as well as his servant and disciple. She looked to him for her own salvation as well as the salvation of the world.

Here's an excellent study:

What Did Mary Know? Quite a Bit, It Turns Out - Logos Bible Study …​


Lyrics​

Mary, did you know
That your baby boy will one day walk on water?
Mary, did you know
That your baby boy will save our sons and daughters?
Did you know
That your baby boy has come to make you new?
This child that you've delivered
Will soon deliver you

Mary, did you know
That your baby boy will give sight to a blind man?
Mary, did you know
That your baby boy will calm a storm with His hand?
Did you know
That your baby boy has walked where angels trod?
And when you kiss your little baby
You've kissed the face of God

Mary, did you know?
The blind will see
The deaf will hear
And the dead will live again
The lame will leap
The dumb will speak
The praises of the Lamb
Click to expand...
A Mark Lowery classic. My only point is that not everyone in Jerusalem wanted to kill Jesus, though it was for their sins, and everyone else’s that he died.


Doug
 
TibiasDad said:
A Mark Lowery classic. My only point is that not everyone in Jerusalem wanted to kill Jesus, though it was for their sins, and everyone else’s that he died.


Doug
Click to expand...
The disciples definitely didn't want Jesus killed nor did they want him to go back to heaven. Once you know him he you never want to be without him. They had witnessed all the Miracles had performed And three of them Peter, James and John for with him on the mount of transfiguration.

Most of the Jews in Jerusalem didn't believe he was the Messiah. That's why when pilot asked the crowd what they wanted him to do with them. They all yelled back crucify him.

From studying the Torah in their synagogue they knew the prophecies that were directed toward the Messiah. They just didn't think the carpenter's son from Nazareth could be him.

The Old Testament contains several prophecies about the death of Jesus123. These include:
  • He would be killed with criminals (Isaiah 53:12; Matthew 27:38).
  • He would be a sacrifice for sin (Isaiah 53, Romans 5:6–8).
  • God cursed any man executed for breaking one of God’s commands. His body hanging on a pole was a public display of judgment (Deuteronomy 21:22–23).
  • Jesus fulfilled anywhere from 300 to 570 Old Testament prophecies
 
The atonement, the shedding of the redemptive blood of Christ is limited to them chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world Eph 1:7

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Check the context, who are the we here who have redemption through His Blood and forgiveness of sins ? It tells us in the context backup in Vs 4:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

This is particular redemption !
 
This redemption wasnt contingent upon our believing in time, but was obtained for us by the death of Christ before we were born if we were chosen in Him and He was our Surety Heb 9:12

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
 
brightfame52 said:
This redemption wasnt contingent upon our believing in time, but was obtained for us by the death of Christ before we were born if we were chosen in Him and He was our Surety Heb 9:12

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Click to expand...
salvation is contingent upon faith that happens in time not outside of time. No faith, no salvation, no justification, no righteousness, no Holy Spirit, no regeneration and the list goes on and on and on.

next
 
brightfame52 said:
The atonement, the shedding of the redemptive blood of Christ is limited to them chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world Eph 1:7

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Check the context, who are the we here who have redemption through His Blood and forgiveness of sins ? It tells us in the context backup in Vs 4:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

This is particular redemption !
Click to expand...
Let’s parse this passage.


Eph 1:4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.

The first question is whom did God choose? The “us” can specifically be identified as “To God’s holy people in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus” in verse one’s salutation; but by extension, to all who have believed and are faithful in their faith. There is no textual evidence of particularly, except for the “in Ephesus”, which cannot mean that the teaching which follows was exclusive to those believers alone. Therefore, the “us” in the rest of the context are believers who are faithful.

Secondly, the believers are chosen in relationship to Christ. It is their belief in him that qualifies them for “every spiritual blessing” (1:3) that God has bestowed upon them from heaven. As John 3:16 says, “whoever believes in him…shall receive everlasting life”.

Thirdly, for what purpose are we chosen? This begins a delineation of what those spiritual blessings are that have been given to believers. The first blessing is to make us “to be holy and blameless in his sight”.

Fourthly, when was this choosing to make us holy and blameless purposed by God? Paul places this in eternity past “before the creation of the world.” This would be expected, for God would not purpose his family to be different in character from him, which is why he chose to create us in his own image.

So far then, the blessings of God are particular to only believers who are faithful and that believers are meant to be “holy and blameless in his sight”. We are not chosen to be chosen, but believers are chosen to be “holy and blameless in his sight”. This is an eternally existent choice of the character of God’s people.



In love 5he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.

Next we have another blessing described.

“In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ…”

First we see the motivation for God’s actions, for he acted “in love” for sake of “us”, the faithful believers.

Secondly, as with verse 4, God’s actions are “predestined”, or determined from all eternity.

So what then was predestined? Namely the methodology for making believer’s family, through “adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ”. And this, again, is in accordance to his “pleasure and will” which disposition is underserved, and therefore renders praise to “his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.”


7In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8that he lavished on us.


This act of adoption and becoming holy and blameless is the result of a work done by Christ alone, for these blessings are “through his blood” and by our believing “in him”, “we have redemption… the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace that he lavished on us.”

Nothing in these verses indicates that some are chosen to believe and some are not, but only that those who have believed and are faithful in their belief, have been blessed with spiritual blessings, specifically to be adopted into sonship and be made holy and blameless by the gracious pleasure and will of God.


Doug
 
TibiasDad said:
Let’s parse this passage.


Eph 1:4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.

The first question is whom did God choose? The “us” can specifically be identified as “To God’s holy people in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus” in verse one’s salutation; but by extension, to all who have believed and are faithful in their faith. There is no textual evidence of particularly, except for the “in Ephesus”, which cannot mean that the teaching which follows was exclusive to those believers alone. Therefore, the “us” in the rest of the context are believers who are faithful.

Secondly, the believers are chosen in relationship to Christ. It is their belief in him that qualifies them for “every spiritual blessing” (1:3) that God has bestowed upon them from heaven. As John 3:16 says, “whoever believes in him…shall receive everlasting life”.

Thirdly, for what purpose are we chosen? This begins a delineation of what those spiritual blessings are that have been given to believers. The first blessing is to make us “to be holy and blameless in his sight”.

Fourthly, when was this choosing to make us holy and blameless purposed by God? Paul places this in eternity past “before the creation of the world.” This would be expected, for God would not purpose his family to be different in character from him, which is why he chose to create us in his own image.

So far then, the blessings of God are particular to only believers who are faithful and that believers are meant to be “holy and blameless in his sight”. We are not chosen to be chosen, but believers are chosen to be “holy and blameless in his sight”. This is an eternally existent choice of the character of God’s people.



In love 5he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.

Next we have another blessing described.

“In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ…”

First we see the motivation for God’s actions, for he acted “in love” for sake of “us”, the faithful believers.

Secondly, as with verse 4, God’s actions are “predestined”, or determined from all eternity.

So what then was predestined? Namely the methodology for making believer’s family, through “adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ”. And this, again, is in accordance to his “pleasure and will” which disposition is underserved, and therefore renders praise to “his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.”


7In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8that he lavished on us.


This act of adoption and becoming holy and blameless is the result of a work done by Christ alone, for these blessings are “through his blood” and by our believing “in him”, “we have redemption… the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace that he lavished on us.”

Nothing in these verses indicates that some are chosen to believe and some are not, but only that those who have believed and are faithful in their belief, have been blessed with spiritual blessings, specifically to be adopted into sonship and be made holy and blameless by the gracious pleasure and will of God.


Doug
Click to expand...
Great job in explaining the Eph 1:4 verse!
 
civic said:
salvation is contingent upon faith that happens in time not outside of time. No faith, no salvation, no justification, no righteousness, no Holy Spirit, no regeneration and the list goes on and on and on.

next
Click to expand...
This redemption wasnt contingent upon our believing in time, but was obtained for us by the death of Christ before we were born if we were chosen in Him and He was our Surety Heb 9:12

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
 
TibiasDad said:
Let’s parse this passage.


Eph 1:4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.

The first question is whom did God choose? The “us” can specifically be identified as “To God’s holy people in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus” in verse one’s salutation; but by extension, to all who have believed and are faithful in their faith. There is no textual evidence of particularly, except for the “in Ephesus”, which cannot mean that the teaching which follows was exclusive to those believers alone. Therefore, the “us” in the rest of the context are believers who are faithful.

Secondly, the believers are chosen in relationship to Christ. It is their belief in him that qualifies them for “every spiritual blessing” (1:3) that God has bestowed upon them from heaven. As John 3:16 says, “whoever believes in him…shall receive everlasting life”.

Thirdly, for what purpose are we chosen? This begins a delineation of what those spiritual blessings are that have been given to believers. The first blessing is to make us “to be holy and blameless in his sight”.

Fourthly, when was this choosing to make us holy and blameless purposed by God? Paul places this in eternity past “before the creation of the world.” This would be expected, for God would not purpose his family to be different in character from him, which is why he chose to create us in his own image.

So far then, the blessings of God are particular to only believers who are faithful and that believers are meant to be “holy and blameless in his sight”. We are not chosen to be chosen, but believers are chosen to be “holy and blameless in his sight”. This is an eternally existent choice of the character of God’s people.



In love 5he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.

Next we have another blessing described.

“In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ…”

First we see the motivation for God’s actions, for he acted “in love” for sake of “us”, the faithful believers.

Secondly, as with verse 4, God’s actions are “predestined”, or determined from all eternity.

So what then was predestined? Namely the methodology for making believer’s family, through “adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ”. And this, again, is in accordance to his “pleasure and will” which disposition is underserved, and therefore renders praise to “his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.”


7In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8that he lavished on us.


This act of adoption and becoming holy and blameless is the result of a work done by Christ alone, for these blessings are “through his blood” and by our believing “in him”, “we have redemption… the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace that he lavished on us.”

Nothing in these verses indicates that some are chosen to believe and some are not, but only that those who have believed and are faithful in their belief, have been blessed with spiritual blessings, specifically to be adopted into sonship and be made holy and blameless by the gracious pleasure and will of God.


Doug
Click to expand...
The atonement, the shedding of the redemptive blood of Christ is limited to them chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world Eph 1:7

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Check the context, who are the we here who have redemption through His Blood and forgiveness of sins ? It tells us in the context backup in Vs 4:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

This is particular redemption !
 

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