The Elect

[praise_yeshua]

Isaac is a child of promise, he was promised to Abraham and Sarah. This doesnt excuse your slanderous ways

There is no lasting promise relative to Isaac. You're doing nothing but display your carnality. What good is a promises that fades away..

Do you even care about Eternal things? Where is your treasure? It certainly doesn't appear to be Christ. You never think of Him in most any context. You think of yourself. That is where you first thoughts go. You prove it on most every thread you comment on.

 

[brightfame52]

There is no lasting promise relative to Isaac. You're doing nothing but display your carnality. What good is a promises that fades away..

Do you even care about Eternal things? Where is your treasure? It certainly doesn't appear to be Christ. You never think of Him in most any context. You think of yourself. That is where you first thoughts go. You prove it on most every thread you comment on.

I dont know what you mean, however as Issac was a child promised to Abe and his Wife, so are believers in Christ. They become believers because they were promised to Abraham as was Isaac. Gal 4:28

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

They became believers and brethren by the Power and Promise of God, just like Isaac did

 

[praise_yeshua]

I dont know what you mean, however as Issac was a child promised to Abe and his Wife, so are believers in Christ. They become believers because they were promised to Abraham as was Isaac. Gal 4:28

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

They became believers and brethren by the Power and Promise of God, just like Isaac did

Again. You're oblivious to the obvious.

You see yourself as the promise when Christ is the Promise.....

Get it? Again and over and over again. You think of yourself without any thoughts whatsoever to Christ. Over and over again. YOU.... replace Christ.

I'm a betting man at times. I'll bet that Jesus doesn't enjoy you trying to always take His Glory from Him.

If God chose you.... wouldn't you deserve the glory? Sure you would. You enjoy that....

 

[brightfame52]

Again. You're oblivious to the obvious.

You see yourself as the promise when Christ is the Promise.....

Get it? Again and over and over again. You think of yourself without any thoughts whatsoever to Christ. Over and over again. YOU.... replace Christ.

I'm a betting man at times. I'll bet that Jesus doesn't enjoy you trying to always take His Glory from Him.

If God chose you.... wouldn't you deserve the glory? Sure you would. You enjoy that....

I can only show you the Truth in a witness, but its above my pay grade to give you understanding to receive it. More Slander

 

[praise_yeshua]

I can only show you the Truth in a witness, but its above my pay grade to give you understanding to receive it. More Slander

You can't give understanding because you don't have it yourself to give. If you had it, you could.

Psa 119:104 Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

You're the one who said "hate" means "love less". So you're saying your "God is love" can love some people less than He loves others.

@civic are you going to agree with this? I mean, it's exactly what you were saying by defining "hate" as "love less".

 

[praise_yeshua]

@civic are you going to agree with this? I mean, it's exactly what you were saying by defining "hate" as "love less".

No. That is not what was said. He gave the definition relative to the context of his comments. Don't remember reading his comments concerning context?

Do you some more than others? Isn't that why you hate some of your brothers? And love your own? Jesus said you haven't accomplished anything with such love.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

wrong it means to love less in the context just like it does when Jesus said unless you hate your mother, father, siblings etc.......

a text without the context is a pretext for a proof text- you are a proof texter. (eisegesis )

context in King ! (exegesis )

This is what he said. It means "love less". So does "God is love" mean God loves some people less than He loves others?

When God says "Jacob I loved but Esau I hated", I assume @civic is saying Esau I loved less. Therefore the "God is love" loves some people less than he loves others, right?

 

[praise_yeshua]

This is what he said. It means "love less". So does "God is love" mean God loves some people less than He loves others?

Why don't you quote all of it. He said this in response to your comrades' claim.....

If people arent born into this world In Christ Jesus, God doesnt Love them

Your comrade was claiming that God didn't love them at all....

It is a simple answer. Simple context.

You actually believe God hates men without first loving them. That is what you believe and you know you do. Why not admit it?

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Why don't you quote all of it. He said this in response to your comrades' claim.....

If people arent born into this world In Christ Jesus, God doesnt Love them

Your comrade was claiming that God didn't love them at all....

It is a simple answer. Simple context.

You actually believe God hates men without first loving them. That is what you believe and you know you do. Why not admit it?

How does that apply to "Jacob I loved but Esau I hated"? The "God is love" doesn't love Esau at all? Or did God really mean Esau He hated? But if "hated" means "love less", then "God is love" loves some people less than others. Pick one and stick with it.

 

[praise_yeshua]

How does that apply to "Jacob I loved but Esau I hated"? The "God is love" doesn't love Esau at all? Or did God really mean Esau He hated? But if "hated" means "love less", then "God is love" loves some people less than others. Pick one and stick with it.

Wasn't my pick. I'm just saying that you're not including all the context.

My pick is consistent. Has been for many many years. The context of Esau and Jacob is more than just love and hate. It is an allegory relative to choice of Christ over any other. In this context, it is perfectly compatible with what @civic said.

God loved Christ MORE than he loved humanity.

You should realize by now that such references are more complicated and have applications that extend beyond the immediate English Definition of a particular definition. This is why Theology is so very important. It is the systematic application of all revelation expressed in meaningful doctrine.

The arguments you make and others make relative to Calvinism is NEVER more than 1 plus 2 deep. Never. Always seeking to oversimplify the complex so as to avoid details.

God does not hate without first loving.

God loved Satan. Satan's rejection of God ultimately leads to the hatred of God in damnation. There is never hate from God without first loving. God saw everything and said it was good. Satan was once even good.

For you to then insist that there is never any love for God's creation is absolute nonsense. You know it is. However, your view of yourself requires you to believe your own imagination rather than the truth.

We all do it. Some worse than others. It is a bitter pill for most people to see themselves for what they a really are. I had to face it myself.

You've found some doctrine revolving around hatred that gives a certain sense of meaning.... Since you believe "you've been chosen" and others haven't.

Just admit it. It gives meaning to you to believe that you've been chosen and others just like you or worse didn't. Calvinist equals = "there must be something good about me"

Look. I don't want to make a enemy of you again. I'll leave you alone for a while. I do care about you brother. I mean that.

 

[TedT]

Limited Atonement is the cornerstone rejecting the loving God.

My premise: Reprobation cannot be reversed by GOD, not because of a lack of love for the reprobate but because they are unforgivable.

The Unforgivable Sin
This concept rests upon two premises:
1. All free will decisions must be seen to be inviolable and sacrosanct.
A true free will decision cannot be nullified or changed by GOD as that would make our free will null and void. Guilt for sin, true love and real marriages including the heavenly marriage, all become suspect.

A free will decision cannot be changed by anyone unless the person asks for it to be changed.

2. The enslaving power of sin makes it impossible for the sinner to save them from their own sinfulness. IF GOD can't save them, nothing can.

Therefore the Satanic reprobate can't be forgiven because
- they made the decision by their free will to reject YHWH's claims to be our creator GOD as a lie and so rebuked HIM as a false god, repudiating HIM fully and rejecting HIM from interfering in their lives in any any way in any capacity as a Saviour from sin, a fantasy they derided as a delusion.

- Since their free will decision cannot be changed unless they ask for it to be changed, once they rebelled and became enslaved by the addictive power of evil, their ability and desire to seek HIM or true repentance was destroyed. They were instantly and totally unable to repent of their evil and committed fully to the belief they were right to rebel against this upstart liar and false god. Even after the proof of HIS Deity and eternal power was given to everyone, they changed the truth for a lie, Romans 1:18 to the end, so great is their enslavement to the addictive power of sin.

They can't save themselves and they have chosen to refuse HIM to ever try to change their minds. They self sealed their own fates no matter that HE still loved them until their evil became fully leavened.

Addendum:
The elect sinners are those who accepted YHWH as their GOD and Saviour from all and any sin BEFORE they ever sinned (ie, while they were still in a state of innocence), thus giving HIM permission to interfere with their addiction to evil and the possibility of hell if they should ever need it. The sinful elect live in this world with the reprobate, Matt 13:27-30, to open their eyes to the eternal nature of the evil of the reprobate so the sinful elect become willing for the judgement to be called upon the reprobate, man, woman and child, which speeds up the coming of that day of GOD:
2 Peter 3:11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to conduct yourselves in holiness and godliness 12 as you anticipate and hasten, (speed up) the coming of the day of God, when the heavens will be destroyed by fire and the elements will melt in the heat.

 

[brightfame52]

@praise_yeshua

God loved Christ MORE than he loved humanity.

Did God Love these less than He did Christ ? Jn 17:23-24

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Wasn't my pick. I'm just saying that you're not including all the context.

My pick is consistent. Has been for many many years. The context of Esau and Jacob is more than just love and hate. It is an allegory relative to choice of Christ over any other. In this context, it is perfectly compatible with what @civic said.

God loved Christ MORE than he loved humanity.

You should realize by now that such references are more complicated and have applications that extend beyond the immediate English Definition of a particular definition. This is why Theology is so very important. It is the systematic application of all revelation expressed in meaningful doctrine.

The arguments you make and others make relative to Calvinism is NEVER more than 1 plus 2 deep. Never. Always seeking to oversimplify the complex so as to avoid details.

God does not hate without first loving.

God loved Satan. Satan's rejection of God ultimately leads to the hatred of God in damnation. There is never hate from God without first loving. God saw everything and said it was good. Satan was once even good.

For you to then insist that there is never any love for God's creation is absolute nonsense. You know it is. However, your view of yourself requires you to believe your own imagination rather than the truth.

We all do it. Some worse than others. It is a bitter pill for most people to see themselves for what they a really are. I had to face it myself.

You've found some doctrine revolving around hatred that gives a certain sense of meaning.... Since you believe "you've been chosen" and others haven't.

Just admit it. It gives meaning to you to believe that you've been chosen and others just like you or worse didn't. Calvinist equals = "there must be something good about me"

Look. I don't want to make a enemy of you again. I'll leave you alone for a while. I do care about you brother. I mean that.

I'd like @civic to pick one and stick with it. But I guess he's busy or on vacation.

 

[praise_yeshua]

@praise_yeshua



Did God Love these less than He did Christ ? Jn 17:23-24

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

God doesn't need our love. Without Christ, God is not God.

 

[brightfame52]

God doesn't need our love. Without Christ, God is not God.

God doesn't need our love. Without Christ, God is not God.

Did God Love these less than He did Christ ? Jn 17:23-24

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

 

[TedT]

Supralapsarianism / antelapsarianism (“before the lapse”) puts God’s decrees in the following order: (1) God decreed the election of some and the eternal condemnation of others, (2) God decreed to create those elected and eternally condemned, (3) God decreed to permit the fall, and (4) God decreed to provide salvation for the elect through Jesus Christ. Supralapsarianism focuses on God ordaining the fall, creating certain people for the sole purpose of being condemned, and then providing salvation for only those whom He had elected.

Pre-lapsarian pov of the Pre-Conception Existence Theology:
1. GOD created everyone ever created in HIS image with a free will and an equal ability and opportunity to choose by our free will to put our faith in HIM as our GOD (and become elect to heaven) or reject HIM as a liar and a false god (to become reprobate condemned to the outer darkness).

2. HE then proclaimed to us all HIS Divinity and the role of the divine Son as our only saviour from sin, Col 1:23, and the need for us to make the choice to enter HIS family, safe from all and any consequence for sin or to choose something else. HE promised to choose, ie, to elect, all who put their faith in HIM as their GOD and Saviour to end safely in the heavenly marriage with HIM, no matter how far they might subsequently fall into sin and HE warned that all who refused HIM as their GOD and Saviour from sin would end in the outer darkness as reprobate, removed from this reality to sequester HIS heavenly family from their predations.

Then we all made our decisions about this proclamation by faith, that is by an unproven hope that HE was our GOD and choosing to believe (have faith in) HIM would ensure everything would came out for our good OR by unproven faith that HE was a liar so all his warnings against going our own way were moot and since his lies proved he was a false god we could scorn him safely.

Not a whole lot of decree-ing going on in this pov but it does contend that election and reprobation were promised or warned of before the choice to sin called the Satanic fall...warnings and promises to all the people in HIS image who had a free will and needed to choose what they most hoped for to be their reality...

HE did not have to decree that those who wanted to join HIM as HIS Family would be saved from sin as that was just the way of things, of HIS loving realty.

Nor did HE have to decree any one who sinned the unforgivable sin and rebuked HIM as a liar would end in hell as that too was just the natural progression of a person who chose to repudiate HIS salvative work on their behalf, that is, hell was just inevitable by the definitions of HIS love and the nature of sinfulness without any decree for it to be so.

The impulse to see GOD's relationship with us to be all by decree denies the personal nature of HIS relationship with us, HIS loving nature and emotional connection with HIS creation, stemming from when rationalism set out to redefine everything in our religion.

Our created ability to think and to choose and HIS making proclamations of HIS gospel and laws for our edification to help us to choose is the nature of our relationship with HIM, not magisterial decrees from some heavenly throne...sigh.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Did God Love these less than He did Christ ? Jn 17:23-24

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

I gave you the answer. There are several aspects of love. Again. You're oversimplifying love.

We are the sons of God but we are not exactly like Christ. The fact you can't accept this is not my issue. It is your carnal mind pretending to be loved as Divinity.

I haven't seen anything from you that makes me believes you actually care about Jesus Christ. Jesus is nothing more than a means for you. A means to exalt your own personal worth to equal of above Him.

Have you ever heard the saying "you don't know what you've got till it is gone?" You can tell what you value. Your one liners reminds of how Satan beguiled Eve into to sin.

 

[brightfame52]

I gave you the answer. There are several aspects of love. Again. You're oversimplifying love.

We are the sons of God but we are not exactly like Christ. The fact you can't accept this is not my issue. It is your carnal mind pretending to be loved as Divinity.

I have seen anything from you that makes me believes you actually care about Jesus Christ. Jesus is nothing more than a means for you. A means to exalt your own personal worth to equal of above Him.

Have you ever heard the saying "you don't know what you've got till it is gone?" You can tell what you value. Your one liners reminds of how Satan beguiled Eve into to sin.

Jn 17:23-24

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
The word as is the adverb kathōs:

1. according as
   
   1. just as, even as
   2. in proportion as, in the degree that

 

[civic]

The none elect are hated by God, despised by God Ps 53:5

There were they in great fear, where no fear was: for God hath scattered the bones of him that encampeth against thee: thou hast put them to shame, because God hath despised them.

These are the hated workers of iniquity Ps 53:4

4 Have the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread: they have not called upon God.

Gods love for all men

I'd like @civic to pick one and stick with it. But I guess he's busy or on vacation.

im at work