Tensions in Calvin’s Idea of Predestination

[praise_yeshua]

The obvious first comment is Matt 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Ergo... if we dont want to follow Jesus' ways, or we choose not to. There are many as I have known some... then we get what has been said will happen.

God sends people to hell as a consequence of their sins, which are seen as a rejection of His perfect justice and holiness. According to Christian belief, hell serves as a punishment for wrongdoing, and it reflects God's commitment to justice, as He cannot overlook sin.

The Bible says that God created hell for Satan and the wicked angels who rebelled in heaven, but there are people in hell also .
Matt 25:41 says... Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Both angelic beings and human beings are in hell for the same reason: sin

Romans 6:23 tells us... For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

So you have a choice. Accept Jesus and God's perfect plan, or accept your lifestyle as you want it.

You're both actually wrong in this. God has the right to send people to hell for rejecting the offer of Jesus Christ for humanity.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

The Atonement not only dealt with the context of sin and many other things, it establishes the very right to establish condemnation for humanity.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Respectfully, free will changes nothing in my question.
If we all have FREE WILL, then for what reason does God send ANYONE to hell?

• Punishment for their sinful actions?
• Because they rejected Jesus’ salvation offer?
• They were born condemned by Adam’s sin?
• Some other reason?

Y’all are adamant that God did not PREDESTINE IT … OK, so that eliminates one possible reason, but what IS the reason?

I doubt that any reason will be a comfort to the person in hell, so I am unsure what you have gained by insisting that it out of the control of an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent God.

Only a egotistical man could ever appeal to his own power for the right to do anything He could want to do.

God isn't shallow and dumb. The very right God has over the clay isn't about what you think it is. You think like Satan does. The manner in which God does anything is just as important to Him as doing them.

You're presenting a God that takes absolute pleasure in evil things.

 

[FreeInChrist]

You're both actually wrong in this. God has the right to send people to hell for rejecting the offer of Jesus Christ for humanity.

Ummm, that is what I said indirectly......"Ergo... if we dont want to follow Jesus' ways, or we choose not to. There are many as I have known some... then we get what has been said will happen.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

The Atonement not only dealt with the context of sin and many other things, it establishes the very right to establish condemnation for humanity.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Ummm, that is what I said indirectly......"Ergo... if we dont want to follow Jesus' ways, or we choose not to. There are many as I have known some... then we get what has been said will happen.

Sorry. Missed that.

 

[Presby02]

Some of us were taught by Paul rather than John Calvin, so until the Apostle issues a retraction, the Bible says what it says about “foreknew” and “predestined” and “His will”.

That is how.

Amen!

 

[Presby02]

In general may I ask if the following kicks both sides of this argument ( Free will ~ Predestination) down the road. And if so why?

@civic @Administrator @TibiasDad @atpollard

It is not a copy and paste but an adaptation from more then one respondent. (Any bolding is mine for emphasis)

Free will ~ Predestination~ Foreknowledge

He (God) foreknew everyone who would accept Him(Jesus). What he did predestine was that everyone who accepts Him (Jesus) would be conformed to the likeness of His Son (Jesus).

Ergo, This does suggest we do have free will!

God's effectual drawing of a person is dependent upon whether there exists in that person a willingness to consider God. And that willingness --that openness to God-- comes from us, not Him.
Yet it is not an actual drawing as much as it is His foreknowledge of expected acceptance that he makes possible what is needed for a decision to be made by (us) the one known by Him

The foreknowledge of God referred to here is only in regard to whether a specific person will ever accept His offer of salvation. He foreknows everyone's existence and, therefore, He knows who will accept salvation.

And how do we know it is by our free will that by His foreknowledge of His knowing we would accept an offering once he makes possible what is needed for our decision, that it will be accepted?

Simple " So God knew/knows the name of everyone who would/will accept the remedy . He also knew/knows who would/will not accept?
Not only does God know what will be, he also knows what would be in the ones he created, since all possible beings would be an imitation of his infinite being, which he knows perfectly.

Many think that God’s infallible knowledge of our future is incompatible with our free will. How can we be truly free if God infallibly knows our choices? It would seem that if our choices were really indeterminate then God couldn’t have infallible knowledge of which option we would choose.

But God can’t be fallible in his knowledge. Therefore, does it not seem we are not free to choose?

Or are we? The contradiction is only apparent when we acknowledge

The Bible teaches that God knows the future in its entirety, including all events and actions, as He is sovereign over history. This understanding emphasizes that God's knowledge encompasses both the future as a whole and the specific choices individuals will make. Individual choices within their free will.

He knows our future actions in all their actuality/being in their presentiality. ( Ummm, I actually had to look this one up ... the quality or state of being present, particularly in a specific time or place.)

In other words, God knows our future actions .

So, is it or is it not correct God predestines some, with a surety of their afterlife?

Yes, BUT only in this sense-- that He ensures that none of those whom He foreknew would be willing to be saved would be lost.

In other words, He made sure that each willing person would be guaranteed an eternity in Heaven

He predestined those he knew to be conformed to the image of His Son.

Conclusion: Scripture reveals God offers salvation to ALL people. But, He cannot predestine for Heaven those whom He knows will never accept salvation. He offers, directs and guides those who he knows will. (Remember: God's knowledge is 100% absolutely perfect. There is no guesswork with Him. What He knows is irrefutably true, without any possibility of error.)

And that it is only by our free will, and His foreknowledge.

Define free will.

 

[TibiasDad]

Define free will.

Define why you asked the question!

Doug

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Respectfully, free will changes nothing in my question.
If we all have FREE WILL, then for what reason does God send ANYONE to hell?

• Punishment for their sinful actions?
• Because they rejected Jesus’ salvation offer?
• They were born condemned by Adam’s sin?
• Some other reason?

Y’all are adamant that God did not PREDESTINE IT … OK, so that eliminates one possible reason, but what IS the reason?

I doubt that any reason will be a comfort to the person in hell, so I am unsure what you have gained by insisting that it out of the control of an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent God.

Jesus gave us the answer

John 3:
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

The obvious first comment is Matt 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Ergo... if we dont want to follow Jesus' ways, or we choose not to. There are many as I have known some... then we get what has been said will happen.

God sends people to hell as a consequence of their sins, which are seen as a rejection of His perfect justice and holiness. According to Christian belief, hell serves as a punishment for wrongdoing, and it reflects God's commitment to justice, as He cannot overlook sin.

The Bible says that God created hell for Satan and the wicked angels who rebelled in heaven, but there are people in hell also .
Matt 25:41 says... Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Both angelic beings and human beings are in hell for the same reason: sin

Romans 6:23 tells us... For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

So you have a choice. Accept Jesus and God's perfect plan, or accept your lifestyle as you want it.

Hell was created for satan and his angels. not for mankind.

Death or seperation is the payment for sin. Which God came and made provision for by suffering death for us.

Those who die in this dead state because of unbelief will remain dead forever (seperated)

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Define free will.

free will is the ability to chose between multiple choices in any given context.

even if that choice may be limited it is still free

(I may not be able to purchase a million dollar home because of my financial situation. But it does not take away from my free will. )

 

[FreeInChrist]

Define free will.

Christian free will is the belief that individuals have the capacity to make choices independently of divine influence, allowing them to accept or reject God's grace.

As opposed to the concept of predestination

 

[FreeInChrist]

Hell was created for satan and his angels. not for mankind.

Death or seperation is the payment for sin. Which God came and made provision for by suffering death for us.

Those who die in this dead state because of unbelief will remain dead forever (seperated)

Alright.

I find that acceptable. Not as an answer but as an eternity.

But what about
Rev 21:8
But for the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part 'shall be in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death.
OR
Matt 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

OR
Matt 25:41
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

OR
REV 20:15
And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown in the lake of fire/

Jude 1:7​

Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

Do you want more?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

 

[Presby02]

Define why you asked the question!

Doug

Define why I asked a question? Your statement is nonsensical

 

[Presby02]

Christian free will is the belief that individuals have the capacity to make choices independently of divine influence, allowing them to accept or reject God's grace.

As opposed to the concept of predestination

So they are subject to all kinds of influences accept divine?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Alright.

I find that acceptable. Not as an answer but as an eternity.

But what about
Rev 21:8
But for the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part 'shall be in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death.
OR
Matt 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Notice the words.

The second death
Kill the soul

OR
Matt 25:41
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Notice the words. prepared for the devil and his angels

OR
REV 20:15
And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown in the lake of fire/

Jude 1:7​

Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

Do you want more?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

More what

the verses support everything I said.

they were dead. they remain dead. Only this is called the second or final death (they did not lose salvation they wre never saved to begin with)

Hell was created for satan and his angels?

Not sure what the problem is

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Christian free will is the belief that individuals have the capacity to make choices independently of divine influence, allowing them to accept or reject God's grace.

As opposed to the concept of predestination

this is it?

This is a week interpretation.. Scripture says God acts on everyone... It is how one responds that will determine how God reacts.

 

[Presby02]

free will is the ability to chose between multiple choices in any given context.

even if that choice may be limited it is still free

(I may not be able to purchase a million dollar home because of my financial situation. But it does not take away from my free will. )

I can go with that. Mine would be that the will is free to make choices free from coercion or force..

 

[FreeInChrist]

So they are subject to all kinds of influences accept divine?

Tell me about the divine influence that those mothers a few years back had when they were strapping and taping down something I wont describe here.

Tell me about the divine influence that has had teachers in the first grade hide the fact that once teaching about it that some of the kids believed they were opposite sex

Tell me about the divine influence that would cause a Catholic priest to molest young alter boys. or the one from a south Miami
diocese who met with a nun in their place, that a friend of mine who was counselor for a while there witnessed because they were opposite his office.

Tell me about the divine influence that Madonna had when her coffee table book encouraged bestiality

Tell me about the divine influence on that serial killer that killer my friend.

Tell me about the divine influence on David Koresh, Marshall Applewhite and Jim Jones. Were they called by God? TRhey why did they teach different things?

Tell me about the divine influence on a Pope who said having a personal relationship with Jesus was dangerous if it was away from the church.

Tell me about the divine influence on a Pope who stated that "all religions are paths to God," emphasizing that there is only one God and that different religions serve as various languages to reach Him.

Tell me about the divine influence on a Pope who on his death bed asked the people to pray to Mary that she pray for his healing

All three of these were from the same one. Let the death rest in peace.

Tell me about the divine influence on mothers taking their young children to see drag shows.

Tell me about the divine influence on

No... it is enough... you get the idea...

And now I will tell you that these people would not have been chosen by God. Or predestined by Him.
These people are true reprobates and as such they will be judged accordingly. Why? Because they have made a choice.

It is not 1000, 500, or even 2oo years ago when the ability for the word to be spread by newspapers, and radios, and telephones and even soap box preachers. People here. They choose because in their minds they do not want to lose out on
their lifestyles.

Unless you are...
But then... tell me about Karla Faye Tucker who killed those people , was sentenced to death in a TX jail, and got a very real jail house conversion and died with a smile on her face.... Because once she learned.... she turned to Jesus.

So, people will always do what they want. If it feel right and if it feels good.

But there are some that God knows will accept Jesus. He does not have to pre do anything to them because in
his foreknowledge he knows everyone who will accept Him(Jesus).

God's effectual drawing of a person is dependent upon whether there exists in that person a willingness to consider God. And that willingness --that openness to God-- comes from us, not Him.
Yet it is not an actual drawing as much as it is His foreknowledge of expected acceptance that he makes possible what is needed for a decision to be made by (us) the one known by Him
Make no mistake though The foreknowledge of God referred to here is only in regard to whether a specific person will ever accept His offer of salvation. He foreknows everyone's existence and, therefore, He knows who will accept salvation.
He offers, directs and guides those who he knows will. (Remember: God's knowledge is 100% absolutely perfect. There is no guesswork with Him. What He knows is irrefutably true, without any possibility of error.

And that is how I see Free Will










I

 

[praise_yeshua]

Christian free will is the belief that individuals have the capacity to make choices independently of divine influence, allowing them to accept or reject God's grace.

As opposed to the concept of predestination

You seem reasonable. Lets show others how reasonable we can be in such discussions....

A choice is more than physical outcomes.

The mind is a wonderous place. It is "open book" relative to experience and ultimately knowledge. We are no less than "gods" in our human minds. We can basically do "anything" in our minds. We can imagine things that have no possibility of outcome.

It is this part of our human existence where the battle for outcomes occurs.

Lets review the Scriptures.

Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

I find very few people actually give this much consideration. They always "boil down" everything to "outcomes".....

I'm tell you brother, this life is much more than just outcomes.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I can go with that. Mine would be that the will is free to make choices free from coercion or force..

Living is coercion. Living is often force..... circumstances are just that, circumstances that exist within the boundaries that God has determined.

Act 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

Those boundaries are more than physical limitations such as oceans and space.

It told a person many years ago that was talking about this subject this....

"If you run a stop sign and hit someone, don't ask why God allowed it to happen to you".......

God has set boundaries. We all operate within those boundaries.