The Elect

praise_yeshua said:
This approach is untenable. Impossible. (and there is no need to make a "God can do anything" argument here. Which is contrary to His own Character. God operatings within the CONFINES of His own Character. God can not lie. God can not sin. Based upon God's declared Character, if God lied, He would commit sin. However, this does not mean that God shares what He knows in every circumstance. God does not owe us information. In fact, this is very essence of freewill. "Figure it out on your own".).......

Which is what this life is about. Having it our way. Our way is based upon our own determinations. (which includes believing lies or not. Seeking or not. Constructing our own imaginations).

There is no possible way given God's Character and the express declaration of His will to determine and prove that one action in primary cause resulted in everything that is being primarily driven by first cause. To then include the primary cause of ceded causality it is untenable to claim that first cause created everything perfectly as God intended.

In fact, we can know for certain that it didn't. God INTERVENES in humanity. When God intervenes in humanity it is mostly to the benefit of all humanity. If first cause created all things as desired, God would not have to intervene in "primary cause" to keep everything in accordance with His will.

Thusly, God must take action to prevent "secondary cause" from impacting First Cause.
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Self-contradictory. First Cause having to take action to prevent secondary cause from impacting first cause, IS secondary cause already impacting first cause. You can't have it both ways.

But do me a favor before we continue. Define "first cause", "secondary cause", and particularly, define "primary cause", as you mean it, showing how it is not the same thing as "first cause", so I can make a reasonable attempt to follow your argument. Even people who agree with me seem to mix words around so it takes too long to establish common meaning.
 
praise_yeshua said:
Now that is a circle argument @makesends
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Ha! I'm thinking he was mocking someone, but ok. Actually, it isn't a circular argument —it's not even an argument— but its tautology is rhetorically intended to point out that "responsibility" can fit many different uses. At least, that's how it comes across to me. A circular argument is more like saying, "Free will is proven by the fact that I decided of my own free will to say so."
 
praise_yeshua said:
Sin is the result of allowing man to be free from coercions. Sin was not preordained. It is the natural result of freedom for the immature and incomplete.

makesends said:
Your reasoning is circular here. You are only repeating your assertion to apply it to what I said.
praise_yeshua said:
Assertion. Explain how you've determined I've made a circular argument. I haven't. We agree that Adam was peccable. The proof is in the fact that Adam sinned. This is not a circular argument. It is a self evidence argument. Those that are complete in Christ do not sin.
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Ok, let me try again. You are assuming free will as part of your reasoning —as an assumption from which to argue— to make the argument proving free will. Free will, in your mind, includes 'freedom from coercions'. Thus, using 'freedom from coercions' as part of your argument is circular. You say "sin was not preordained", but is only "the natural result of freedom", but saying so is based on the notion of your brand of freewill as a given. You are asserting, positing, disagreeing with me, but saying nothing you haven't said before.
 
makesends said:
Both. Though I wouldn't use the term 'free will' there as you take it to mean.
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That is a contradiction in terms

So God determined Adam's sin, and then he determined the propagation of that sin to all mankind, determining that all would be born totally depraved and unable to responds to him in a positive manner. Of that mass of mankind God determined to change a few and save them consigning the rest to eternal torment.

That is not the loving God of the bible who sent his son to die for the world
 
@TomL

So God determined Adam's sin, and then he determined the propagation of that sin to all mankind, determining that all would be born totally depraved and unable to responds to him in a positive manner. Of that mass of mankind God determined to change a few and save them consigning the rest to eternal torment.
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Yes, but all was predetermined before the world began.
 
brightfame52 said:
@TomL



Yes, but all was predetermined before the world began.
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That is not the God of the bible

So God determined Adam's sin, and then he determined the propagation of that sin to all mankind, determining that all would be born totally depraved and unable to responds to him in a positive manner. Of that mass of mankind God determined to change a few and save them consigning the rest to eternal torment.

but the god of gnostic thought
 
TomL said:
That is not the God of the bible

So God determined Adam's sin, and then he determined the propagation of that sin to all mankind, determining that all would be born totally depraved and unable to responds to him in a positive manner. Of that mass of mankind God determined to change a few and save them consigning the rest to eternal torment.

but the god of gnostic thought
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Yes it is the God of the scripture. He created some for Heaven and some for hells torment, for His Own Glory
 
TomL said:
Nope God is most gloried by his love and not his determination and eternal punishment for those he determined.
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Yes He is Glorified by the damnation of the wicked, His Justice. Pharoah was a Type of how God is Glorified by the destruction of the wicked Ex 15:1-16

Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song unto the Lord, and spake, saying, I will sing unto the Lord, for he hath triumphed gloriously: the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea.

2 The Lord is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him.

3 The Lord is a man of war: the Lord is his name.

4 Pharaoh's chariots and his host hath he cast into the sea: his chosen captains also are drowned in the Red sea.

5 The depths have covered them: they sank into the bottom as a stone.

6 Thy right hand, O Lord, is become glorious in power: thy right hand, O Lord, hath dashed in pieces the enemy.

7 And in the greatness of thine excellency thou hast overthrown them that rose up against thee: thou sentest forth thy wrath, which consumed them as stubble.

8 And with the blast of thy nostrils the waters were gathered together, the floods stood upright as an heap, and the depths were congealed in the heart of the sea.

9 The enemy said, I will pursue, I will overtake, I will divide the spoil; my lust shall be satisfied upon them; I will draw my sword, my hand shall destroy them.

10 Thou didst blow with thy wind, the sea covered them: they sank as lead in the mighty waters.

11 Who is like unto thee, O Lord, among the gods? who is like thee, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders?

12 Thou stretchedst out thy right hand, the earth swallowed them.

13 Thou in thy mercy hast led forth the people which thou hast redeemed: thou hast guided them in thy strength unto thy holy habitation.

14 The people shall hear, and be afraid: sorrow shall take hold on the inhabitants of Palestina.

15 Then the dukes of Edom shall be amazed; the mighty men of Moab, trembling shall take hold upon them; all the inhabitants of Canaan shall melt away.

16 Fear and dread shall fall upon them; by the greatness of thine arm they shall be as still as a stone; till thy people pass over, O Lord, till the people pass over, which thou hast purchased.
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This is mentioned in the Rev 15:1-4

And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.
 
makesends said:
praise_yeshua said:
Sin is the result of allowing man to be free from coercions. Sin was not preordained. It is the natural result of freedom for the immature and incomplete.

makesends said:
Your reasoning is circular here. You are only repeating your assertion to apply it to what I said.

Ok, let me try again. You are assuming free will as part of your reasoning —as an assumption from which to argue— to make the argument proving free will. Free will, in your mind, includes 'freedom from coercions'. Thus, using 'freedom from coercions' as part of your argument is circular. You say "sin was not preordained", but is only "the natural result of freedom", but saying so is based on the notion of your brand of freewill as a given. You are asserting, positing, disagreeing with me, but saying nothing you haven't said before.
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Then share your view of the concept of "free will". I will listen. I can remove that "assumption" from my comments but I'm not actually assuming. I believe "free will" is self evident relative to sin.

We can try to come to agreement on what "free will" actually is. I hope you don't think conceptual "free will" is a misnomer. Thanks

I appreciate you being exacting in your responses.
 
brightfame52 said:
Yes He did create some for Hell and destruction,
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Even though your interpretation of reality fits perfectly the orthodox concepts of our creation as being at/by our conception, orthodox theology has got it wrong and there is a distinction between HIS creating people with a free will to enable them to choose their own FATE vrs HIS creation of the LIVES of sinners for HIS redemptive purposes for the sinful state of HIS Family members who also chose to sin.

Fitting them to destruction refers to determining their lives as sinners, lives determined already, Jn 3:18, not their fates at their personal creation. There is no need to accept YHWH as a GOD of duality creating both good and evil - an idea which permeates every other religion - in that only YHWH is recognized to be purely good and holy and evil is due to the choices of HIS creation whom HE allowed the free will ability to create evil to be able to fulfill HIS purpose of having a heavenly marriage with HIS creation only by their own choice to accept HIS marriage proposal free from coercion because it fit what they most hoped for their most happiness.

Having people enter the loving communion of HIS Family only by their choice also meant people were able to refuse HIS offer and become evil in their hearts, forever in dispute with HIM and at war with HIS Family.
 
brightfame52 said:
@TomL
Yes, but all was predetermined before the world began.
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Sure but people were created BEFORE the physical universe began:
Berean Standard Bible
Job 38:7...while the morning stars sang together and ALL the sons of God shouted for joy?
so there is no need to assume we did not have the time to consider by our free will whether to accept YHWH's claims to be our GOD and the only Saviour from sin...as if we had been created at conception under the influence of sinfulness/evil and condemnation already.

That is, our being born into mankind as evil or condemned could well have been because conception into mankind was the best a way to get HIS sinful sheep, seed, aka the sinful people of HIS kingdom into one redemptive death, Christ's through Adam, not our creation as evil and condemned.
 
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TedT said:
Even though your interpretation of reality fits perfectly the orthodox concepts of our creation as being at/by our conception, orthodox theology has got it wrong and there is a distinction between HIS creating people with a free will to enable them to choose their own FATE vrs HIS creation of the LIVES of sinners for HIS redemptive purposes for the sinful state of HIS Family members who also chose to sin.

Fitting them to destruction refers to determining their lives as sinners, lives determined already, Jn 3:18, not their fates at their personal creation. There is no need to accept YHWH as a GOD of duality creating both good and evil - an idea which permeates every other religion - in that only YHWH is recognized to be purely good and holy and evil is due to the choices of HIS creation whom HE allowed the free will ability to create evil to be able to fulfill HIS purpose of having a heavenly marriage with HIS creation only by their own choice to accept HIS marriage proposal free from coercion because it fit what they most hoped for their most happiness.

Having people enter the loving communion of HIS Family only by their choice also meant people were able to refuse HIS offer and become evil in their hearts, forever in dispute with HIM and at war with HIS Family.
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You can disagree, but God created some Vessels of Wrath and fitted them for destruction, for the Glory of His Justice
 

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