Tensions in Calvin’s Idea of Predestination

[praise_yeshua]

The obvious first comment is Matt 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Ergo... if we dont want to follow Jesus' ways, or we choose not to. There are many as I have known some... then we get what has been said will happen.

God sends people to hell as a consequence of their sins, which are seen as a rejection of His perfect justice and holiness. According to Christian belief, hell serves as a punishment for wrongdoing, and it reflects God's commitment to justice, as He cannot overlook sin.

The Bible says that God created hell for Satan and the wicked angels who rebelled in heaven, but there are people in hell also .
Matt 25:41 says... Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Both angelic beings and human beings are in hell for the same reason: sin

Romans 6:23 tells us... For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

So you have a choice. Accept Jesus and God's perfect plan, or accept your lifestyle as you want it.

There is more to the punishment of sin since the work of Christ than just "suffering for your own sin".

Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

It is "just" in the Character of God to forgive. It isn't like your sin can actually harm God. It can't. Mine can't. What our sin does harm is US and others like us. God is fine without us. The very Character of God requires forgiveness.

What is at stake here is the rights to Eternal Life. Such is of great value and requires purity and a likeness to Character of God on full display among us in Jesus Christ.

Relationships. I'm sure you've realized by now in your life that you can forgive someone a hundred times over, yet never be able to have a meaningful relationship with that person.

This ideas of "sin" most people have is nothing more than their own preferences. Their own judgements. Sin is really about total corruption of the character of mankind. Sin is likened to "fire" in

Pro 6:27 Can a man take fire in his bosom, and his clothes not be burned?
Pro 6:28 Can one go upon hot coals, and his feet not be burned?

This life is a battle for character. Such is made up of what we think, what we do, what we don't do, and what we plan to do.

 

[Presby02]

Living is coercion. Living is often force..... circumstances are just that, circumstances that exist within the boundaries that God has determined.

Act 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

Those boundaries are more than physical limitations such as oceans and space.

It told a person many years ago that was talking about this subject this....

"If you run a stop sign and hit someone, don't ask why God allowed it to happen to you".......

God has set boundaries. We all operate within those boundaries.

Living is coercion? I stopped reading right there, how silly

 

[Presby02]

Tell me about the divine influence that those mothers a few years back had when they were strapping and taping down something I wont describe here.

Tell me about the divine influence that has had teachers in the first grade hide the fact that once teaching about it that some of the kids believed they were opposite sex

Tell me about the divine influence that would cause a Catholic priest to molest young alter boys. or the one from a south Miami
diocese who met with a nun in their place, that a friend of mine who was counselor for a while there witnessed because they were opposite his office.

Tell me about the divine influence that Madonna had when her coffee table book encouraged bestiality

Tell me about the divine influence on that serial killer that killer my friend.

Tell me about the divine influence on David Koresh, Marshall Applewhite and Jim Jones. Were they called by God? TRhey why did they teach different things?

Tell me about the divine influence on a Pope who said having a personal relationship with Jesus was dangerous if it was away from the church.

Tell me about the divine influence on a Pope who stated that "all religions are paths to God," emphasizing that there is only one God and that different religions serve as various languages to reach Him.

Tell me about the divine influence on a Pope who on his death bed asked the people to pray to Mary that she pray for his healing

All three of these were from the same one. Let the death rest in peace.

Tell me about the divine influence on mothers taking their young children to see drag shows.

Tell me about the divine influence on

No... it is enough... you get the idea...

And now I will tell you that these people would not have been chosen by God. Or predestined by Him.
These people are true reprobates and as such they will be judged accordingly. Why? Because they have made a choice.

It is not 1000, 500, or even 2oo years ago when the ability for the word to be spread by newspapers, and radios, and telephones and even soap box preachers. People here. They choose because in their minds they do not want to lose out on
their lifestyles.

Unless you are...
But then... tell me about Karla Faye Tucker who killed those people , was sentenced to death in a TX jail, and got a very real jail house conversion and died with a smile on her face.... Because once she learned.... she turned to Jesus.

So, people will always do what they want. If it feel right and if it feels good.

But there are some that God knows will accept Jesus. He does not have to pre do anything to them because in
his foreknowledge he knows everyone who will accept Him(Jesus).

God's effectual drawing of a person is dependent upon whether there exists in that person a willingness to consider God. And that willingness --that openness to God-- comes from us, not Him.
Yet it is not an actual drawing as much as it is His foreknowledge of expected acceptance that he makes possible what is needed for a decision to be made by (us) the one known by Him
Make no mistake though The foreknowledge of God referred to here is only in regard to whether a specific person will ever accept His offer of salvation. He foreknows everyone's existence and, therefore, He knows who will accept salvation.
He offers, directs and guides those who he knows will. (Remember: God's knowledge is 100% absolutely perfect. There is no guesswork with Him. What He knows is irrefutably true, without any possibility of error.

And that is how I see Free Will










I

So you're saying, unless the world is sin free, then God has no influence.? Doesn't the holy spirit convict the world of sin and righteousness? Your position is silly. Not to mention your view of God's forknowledge violates his aseIty.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Living is coercion? I stopped reading right there, how silly

Maybe you don't understand me. Let me ask a question. What influenced you today where you felt the necessity to do something?

The Scripture teach this very fact.

Rom 14:7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.

We affect others and they affect us. Whether you realize this or not, there are circumstances in this "life" that coerce all of us. I can easily name a few "off the top of my head".

Most people try to "live to themselves". They pretend they're in absolute control of their own lives. That is never really true.

Christ came that man might not "live to themselves". Which leaves Calvinism out of the equation. Calvinism is all about self.

2Co 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Not to mention your view of God's forknowledge violates his aseIty.

So you are God's instructor?

 

[Presby02]

So you are God's instructor?

Where did I say that? You just try too hard.

 

[Presby02]

Maybe you don't understand me. Let me ask a question. What influenced you today where you felt the necessity to do something?

The Scripture teach this very fact.

Rom 14:7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.

We affect others and they affect us. Whether you realize this or not, there are circumstances in this "life" that coerce all of us. I can easily name a few "off the top of my head".

Most people try to "live to themselves". They pretend they're in absolute control of their own lives. That is never really true.

Christ came that man might not "live to themselves". Which leaves Calvinism out of the equation. Calvinism is all about self.

2Co 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

How is this in any way relevant to this thread.?

 

[FreeInChrist]

Living is coercion. Living is often force..... circumstances are just that, circumstances that exist within the boundaries that God has determined.

Act 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

Those boundaries are more than physical limitations such as oceans and space.

It told a person many years ago that was talking about this subject this....

"If you run a stop sign and hit someone, don't ask why God allowed it to happen to you".......

God has set boundaries. We all operate within those boundaries.

You need to define the boundaries you are referring to

 

[praise_yeshua]

Where did I say that? You just try too hard.

You didn't. Neither did FreeinChrist say anything about God's aseIty to deny it.

You just try too hard.

 

[praise_yeshua]

How is this in any way relevant to this thread.?

Do you remember saying something about coercion? I dealt with your comments. I don't care if you think it is relevant or not. It is relevant. We are at odds on the very Character of God. I will deal with you as such without coercion from you.

Get it... coercion?

 

[praise_yeshua]

You need to define the boundaries you are referring to

There are very many boundaries. However, the concept is the same. God sets boundaries, we operate of our own freewill within those boundaries. The idea that "God" orchestrates everything is a concept both in Calvinism and Arminianism that isn't true.

In the context of my example concerning "running a stop sign"....

Running a stop sign doesn't require God intervene to get our attention to prevent it. Not saying that God doesn't. Just saying the boundaries of "motion" (forget law) operates and is observable in our lives so we can discern for ourselves the results of "boundaries" that exist. Boundaries are those things that exist in our lives that are the same for everyone without exception. Some might call it "nature" but it is more than this and less depending upon how "nature" is defined by the individual.

Stop light exist because we made them. The car exists because we made them. The collision existed because we created the circumstances whereby the "wreck" could have happened. Such is OUR responsibility.

 

[FreeInChrist]

So you're saying, unless the world is sin free, then God has no influence.? Doesn't the holy spirit convict the world of sin and righteousness? Your position is silly. Not to mention your view of God's forknowledge violates his aseIty.

"So you're saying, unless the world is sin free, then God has no influence."

I never said that nor did I suggest it.

What I said based on free will, is that with free will we have the opportunity to learn and accept or reject what is biblically taught
about... ummm, to simplify... the outcome of where our eternities will be.

In other words, based on tangible evidence produced through out my life that I could see, and things that I have heard, starting in my late teens and as I approach my final days. I made a choice. My choice was to place my unwavering faith in the blood of Jesus shed for my sins, Based from my pre-teen confirmation class teachings to a few years ago when God, rightfully, had the Holy Spirit convict me once again.

You might say I am firmly grounded in Conditional Election where this belief states that God predestines individuals based on His foreknowledge of their future faith and actions. It highlights the role of human free will.

I know you do not understand., and that you are comfortable with your beliefs.

Wonderful....

So long as the basics are there... bravo

 

[praise_yeshua]

"So you're saying, unless the world is sin free, then God has no influence."

I never said that nor did I suggest it.

What I said based on free will, is that with free will we have the opportunity to learn and accept or reject what is biblically taught
about... ummm, to simplify... the outcome of where our eternities will be.

In other words, based on tangible evidence produced through out my life that I could see, and things that I have heard, starting in my late teens and as I approach my final days. I made a choice. My choice was to place my unwavering faith in the blood of Jesus shed for my sins, Based from my pre-teen confirmation class teachings to a few years ago when God, rightfully, had the Holy Spirit convict me once again.

You might say I am firmly grounded in Conditional Election where this belief states that God predestines individuals based on His foreknowledge of their future faith and actions. It highlights the role of human free will.

I know you do not understand., and that you are comfortable with your beliefs.

Wonderful....

So long as the basics are there... bravo

Is it okay that I deal with some of the assumptions? My goal isn't to defend anything but the truth. If you want to fit your beliefs within some set of commonly accepted theological perspectives then I'll leave you alone.

I think I've said things lately where I've lost people. I don't want to do this. However, I have spent a very long time refining my theology to the point of clearly being able to combat many of the mistakes that people make in knowing God. I'm not trying to replace "God" in your life. Just challenging your perspective that you might know Him more accurately.

There is this "concept" within modern Christianity where as long as someone believes their saved, that is all that matters. That it doesn't really matter what someone thinks or believes as long as they're "okay with God".

Well. I have to disagree. I believe it does matter what we think and what we believe to the finest degree definable with God. Remaining "where we are" at the current moment isn't an option. We must "press ahead". (not saying you're doing this. Just speaking generally about us all)

I don't care what Calvin taught. I don't care what Augustine taught apart from recognize them as the origins of many mistakes. It doesn't get me anywhere with God to know what they believed. It does in a sense of being able to know the thoughts of less than adequate men. I spent many years learning what they taught, even to the point of trying to learn Latin. Latin is a very difficult language and many people have falsely translated some of the things both wrote in their writings. To the point, I refused to believe most anything someone wrote about them. If anyone has ever lied to you before, I believe that creates a good sense of skepticism in us. A very necessary skepticism.

If we were to have an open conversation relative to Predestination, I would insist we first start with how Christ was predestined. To know the Truth of God concerning this, we must start with God's first choice.

Would you agree that Christ was/is God's first choice?

 

[FreeInChrist]

Is it okay that I deal with some of the assumptions? My goal isn't to defend anything but the truth. If you want to fit your beliefs within some set of commonly accepted theological perspectives then I'll leave you alone.

I think I've said things lately where I've lost people. I don't want to do this. However, I have spent a very long time refining my theology to the point of clearly being able to combat many of the mistakes that people make in knowing God. I'm not trying to replace "God" in your life. Just challenging your perspective that you might know Him more accurately.

There is this "concept" within modern Christianity where as long as someone believes their saved, that is all that matters. That it doesn't really matter what someone thinks or believes as long as they're "okay with God".

Well. I have to disagree. I believe it does matter what we think and what we believe to the finest degree definable with God. Remaining "where we are" at the current moment isn't an option. We must "press ahead". (not saying you're doing this. Just speaking generally about us all)

I don't care what Calvin taught. I don't care what Augustine taught apart from recognize them as the origins of many mistakes. It doesn't get me anywhere with God to know what they believed. It does in a sense of being able to know the thoughts of less than adequate men. I spent many years learning what they taught, even to the point of trying to learn Latin. Latin is a very difficult language and many people have falsely translated some of the things both wrote in their writings. To the point, I refused to believe most anything someone wrote about them. If anyone has ever lied to you before, I believe that creates a good sense of skepticism in us. A very necessary skepticism.

If we were to have an open conversation relative to Predestination, I would insist we first start with how Christ was predestined. To know the Truth of God concerning this, we must start with God's first choice.

Would you agree that Christ was/is God's first choice?

I can agree with that, probably.

But that begs a question..... I had 2 but I don't remember the 2nd one

#1. Your belief in the Trinity?

#2. Oh, Your belief on what exactly predestination is because
you said this " I would insist we first start with how Christ was predestined."

A very provocative statement.

If you reply but If I dont reply to you until tomorrow, I will. I wont run away.

 

[Presby02]

"So you're saying, unless the world is sin free, then God has no influence."

I never said that nor did I suggest it.

What I said based on free will, is that with free will we have the opportunity to learn and accept or reject what is biblically taught
about... ummm, to simplify... the outcome of where our eternities will be.

In other words, based on tangible evidence produced through out my life that I could see, and things that I have heard, starting in my late teens and as I approach my final days. I made a choice. My choice was to place my unwavering faith in the blood of Jesus shed for my sins, Based from my pre-teen confirmation class teachings to a few years ago when God, rightfully, had the Holy Spirit convict me once again.

You might say I am firmly grounded in Conditional Election where this belief states that God predestines individuals based on His foreknowledge of their future faith and actions. It highlights the role of human free will.

I know you do not understand., and that you are comfortable with your beliefs.

Wonderful....

So long as the basics are there... bravo

Scripture makes no of conditions whereby election takes place.. the bible does not say God chose you because you chose Him.

Also, your view of God's foreign knowledge violates his aseity

 

[Presby02]

Do you remember saying something about coercion? I dealt with your comments. I don't care if you think it is relevant or not. It is relevant. We are at odds on the very Character of God. I will deal with you as such without coercion from you.

Get it... coercion?

Again, irrelevant to the topic at hand.. get it....? Irrelevant?

 

[Presby02]

You didn't. Neither did FreeinChrist say anything about God's aseIty to deny it.

You just try too hard.

He or she does not have to mention it, to be so. He or she's view is also contradictory with here are she's view of free will.

 

[praise_yeshua]

He or she does not have to mention it, to be so. He or she's view is also contradictory with here are she's view of free will.

Just know thyself. Don't criticize what you do yourself.

Your view contradicts it. I've long believed that there is no rational case for Calvinism with any sense of free will. Free to choose within meaningless context is not free will. The will is either determitive or not to be classified in any sense of freedom.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Again, irrelevant to the topic at hand.. get it....? Irrelevant?

Sure it is. If you believe in any sense of freedom, then coercion is required in any predetermined outcome.

 

[TibiasDad]

Define why I asked a question? Your statement is nonsensical

Stop, take a slow, deep breath, and think about it! Free will is why you asked the question. You didn’t have to ask it. You were not forced to ask it. You asked because you wanted to ask it. Because you were free to ask or not ask.

Doug