The Bible does not teach to pray to Jesus

[Runningman]

Many Jewish thinkers have recognized there is Trinitarian evidence in the old testament and this video goes over these facts.

The Trinity in the Old Testament: • The Trinity in the Old Testament


Sources:


The Bodies of God and the World of Ancient Israel - Dr. Benjamin Sommer


Genesis, The JPS Torah Commentary - Nahum Sarna

Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus - Dr. Michael Brown

The Works of Philo - Translated by C. D. Yonge

Since we’re having a friendly debate, I’d appreciate it if you could take a moment to listen to this short clip on how the Triune Godhead is recognized by certain Sages and Rabbis.

--and share any source you think I should read.

J.

I can do that too and I can do it more than you. The number of sources available on Jews rejecting the trinity on Scriptural grounds is massive and has been going on for just as long as trinitarianism has existed. I would basically have to fill up this entire forum, threads, sub-threads, and inbox from top to bottom on the Jewish rejection of the trinity over the past 2000 years in order to get them all. You're free to look them up as it is quite easy and they are commonplace on the Internet.

Here's one from some very standard rabbis saying why they reject the Trinity.

 

[Johann]

I can do that too and I can do it more than you. The number of sources available on Jews rejecting the trinity on Scriptural grounds is massive and has been going on for just as long as trinitarianism has existed. I would basically have to fill up this entire forum, threads, sub-threads, and inbox from top to bottom on the Jewish rejection of the trinity over the past 2000 years in order to get them all. You're free to look them up as it is quite easy and they are commonplace on the Internet.

Here's one from some very standard rabbis saying why they reject the Trinity.

Tovia Singer and Shabir?

This was a rather weak attempt on your part @Runningman.

Do you believe as they do? I mean, Tovia Singer and Shabir Ali? Yes or no?

J.

 

[Runningman]

Tovia Singer and Shabir?

This was a rather weak attempt on your part @Runningman.

Do you believe as they do? I mean, Tovia Singer and Shabir Ali? Yes or no?

J.

No that's not a weak attempt. I just gave you one source where people were rejecting the Trinity. I don't believe in padding an argument to bolster it. There's a source. Yes I stand with them on the point of their rejection of the Trinity on Scriptural grounds. Pick your scholars, pick your sources, pick your theologians because we all do. The point is that there are a lot of people who don't agree the idea of the trinity is in the Bible.

So here's a question. Since you clearly believe the New Covenant involves trinitarianism, then why is it that the New Covenant is never described that way? Ever read Acts 2? Peter, a Jew, preached to Jews, and said Jesus is a man who God worked through. Based on this message alone, there was no mention of a trinity for them to believe in, yet thousands were saved anyway regardless or whether the trinity exists or not.

Acts 2 (NIV)
22“Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.
36“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”
40With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” 41Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

 

[Johann]

No that's not a weak attempt. I just gave you one source where people were rejecting the Trinity. I don't believe in padding an argument to bolster it. There's a source. Yes I stand with them on the point of their rejection of the Trinity on Scriptural grounds. Pick your scholars, pick your sources, pick your theologians because we all do. The point is that there are a lot of people who don't agree the idea of the trinity is in the Bible.

So here's a question. Since you clearly believe the New Covenant involves trinitarianism, then why is it that the New Covenant is never described that way? Ever read Acts 2? Peter, a Jew, preached to Jews, and said Jesus is a man who God worked through. Based on this message alone, there was no mention of a trinity for them to believe in, yet thousands were saved anyway regardless or whether the trinity exists or not.

Acts 2 (NIV)
22“Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.
36“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”
40With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” 41Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

The New Testament gives Jesus many names and titles, each revealing different aspects of His divine and redemptive nature. Some key titles include:

Jesus (Yeshua, meaning "Yahweh saves") – His human name (Matthew 1:21).
Christ (Christos, "Anointed One" or "Messiah") – emphasizing His role as the promised deliverer (Matthew 16:16).
Son of God – pointing to His unique divine relationship with the Father (Matthew 14:33).
Son of Man – His self-identification, highlighting both humanity and fulfillment of prophecy (Daniel 7:13; Matthew 8:20).
Emmanuel ("God with us") – confirming His incarnation (Matthew 1:23).
Lamb of God – representing His sacrificial role (John 1:29).
The Word (Logos) – describing His preexistence and active role in creation (John 1:1).
King of Kings and Lord of Lords – emphasizing His supreme authority (Revelation 19:16).
The Way, the Truth, and the Life – affirming He is the only path to God (John 14:6).
High Priest – showing His intercessory role (Hebrews 4:14).
Alpha and Omega – indicating His eternal nature (Revelation 22:13).
Bridegroom – illustrating His relationship with the Church (Matthew 9:15).
Other titles include Savior (Luke 2:11), Light of the World (John 8:12), Good Shepherd (John 10:11), Mediator (1 Timothy 2:5), Head of the Church (Colossians 1:18), Faithful and True (Revelation 19:11), Redeemer (Ephesians 1:7), Advocate (1 John 2:1), and The Firstborn from the Dead (Colossians 1:18).

Immanuel – God with us (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:23).
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace – (Isaiah 9:6).
The Seed of the Woman – promised redeemer (Genesis 3:15; Galatians 4:4).
Shiloh – the peaceful one who gathers (Genesis 49:10).
The Branch – signifying growth from David’s line (Isaiah 11:1; Jeremiah 23:5).
The Shepherd – caring and guiding role (Psalm 23:1; John 10:11).
The Rock – strength and stability (Deuteronomy 32:4; 1 Corinthians 10:4).
The Angel of the Lord – a theophany of the pre-incarnate Christ (Genesis 16:7-13; Judges 13:18).

The title “the man Jesus Christ” comes from 1 Timothy 2:5, where Paul states, “For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (Lexham English Bible). This title emphasizes Jesus' full humanity, portraying Him as the intermediary who bridges the gap between God and humanity. His human experience, including His suffering and temptation, uniquely qualifies Him as a compassionate high priest (Hebrews 4:15) and redeemer who fully understands human struggles and intercedes on behalf of humanity.

I have no problem with this @Runningman -who is Messiah to you if He is NOT God?

J.

 

[TomL]

Anytime they prayed to the Lord they were praying to the Father. Let's begin with the precedent in Scripture.

1. No one prayed to Jesus in the Old Testament.
2. No one taught anything about praying to Jesus in the New Testament
3. Jesus only ever prayed to the Father
4. Jesus taught the disciples to pray to the Father.

Therefore the Scriptural precedent is mine. You don't have any scriptural backing for you bald faced denials of Scripture.

When they prayed to the Lord in the Bible, then they prayed to the Father because the Father is Lord over Jesus. The Lord Most High is the Father (YHWH). That is a title Jesus is never called because it doesn't belong to him.

Jesus prayed to the Lord:

Matthew 11 (NIV)​

25At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.​

The disciples prayed to the Lord:

Acts 1 (NIV)​

24Then they prayed, “Lord, you know everyone’s heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen​

I'm calling check mate on this forum and Trinitarianism. There are no verses about "Jesus" being "prayed" to in the Bible. This is irrefutable.

You will never deal with your own confession will you?

Give it up

We have you on record admitting Jesus is the one Lord

1 Corinthians 8:6 (KJV 1900) — 6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.


Jesus Christ is the one lord so Lord here is Jesus

Acts 1:24–25 (KJV 1900) — 24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, 25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.

You stand refuted even while you attempt to frame your argument and denying the definition of the word prayer

refuted by your own confession though you change your argument to suit the need of the moment

BTW 1 Cor 8:6 also shows his pre-existence refuting another one of your denial

one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Again give it up. The fact you have to alter your views to suit the situation shows your views are error

and will change your views to meet the situation at hand.

That is not the mark of an honest interpreter of the bible

 

[synergy]

No that's not a weak attempt. I just gave you one source where people were rejecting the Trinity. I don't believe in padding an argument to bolster it. There's a source. Yes I stand with them on the point of their rejection of the Trinity on Scriptural grounds. Pick your scholars, pick your sources, pick your theologians because we all do. The point is that there are a lot of people who don't agree the idea of the trinity is in the Bible.

So here's a question. Since you clearly believe the New Covenant involves trinitarianism, then why is it that the New Covenant is never described that way? Ever read Acts 2? Peter, a Jew, preached to Jews, and said Jesus is a man who God worked through. Based on this message alone, there was no mention of a trinity for them to believe in, yet thousands were saved anyway regardless or whether the trinity exists or not.

Acts 2 (NIV)
22“Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.
36“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”
40With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” 41Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

Jesus' Deity has always been under your nose. The names YHWH/Jehovah and Adonai are translated to κυριος (Lord) in the Greek OT (Septuagint) and to Lord in English translations.

You even quoted Acts 2:36 which confirms Jesus as YHWH and Adonai in Hebrew, which translate to κυριος in Greek and to Lord in English.

The Apostles did not use the title "Lord" (κυριος) for anyone besides Jesus and God the Father in the New Testament. While κυριος could be used culturally as a term of respect or authority, the Apostles specifically used "Lord" to indicate divine authority, reverence, or worship when referring to Jesus or God the Father.

For example, Peter addresses Jesus as "Lord" (κυριος) with the understanding of His divine nature, particularly after Jesus' resurrection (Acts 2:36). Similarly, "Lord" is also used in prayers addressed to God the Father (as in Acts 4:24). The Apostles reserve this title, in its spiritual sense, for the divine alone, and there is no record of them calling any other human "Lord" in the same way.

As I commended you many times before, keep those Trinitarian Verses coming!

 

[TomL]

Jesus' Deity has always been under your nose. The names YHWH/Jehovah and Adonai are translated to κυριος (Lord) in the Greek OT (Septuagint) and to Lord in English translations.

You even quoted Acts 2:36 which confirms Jesus as YHWH and Adonai in Hebrew, which translate to κυριος in Greek and to Lord in English.

The Apostles did not use the title "Lord" (κυριος) for anyone besides Jesus and God the Father in the New Testament. While κυριος could be used culturally as a term of respect or authority, the Apostles specifically used "Lord" to indicate divine authority, reverence, or worship when referring to Jesus or God the Father.

For example, Peter addresses Jesus as "Lord" (κυριος) with the understanding of His divine nature, particularly after Jesus' resurrection (Acts 2:36). Similarly, "Lord" is also used in prayers addressed to God the Father (as in Acts 4:24). The Apostles reserve this title, in its spiritual sense, for the divine alone, and there is no record of them calling any other human "Lord" in the same way.

As I commended you many times before, keep those Trinitarian Verses coming!

Amen

 

[Runningman]

Jesus' Deity has always been under your nose. The names YHWH/Jehovah and Adonai are translated to κυριος (Lord) in the Greek OT (Septuagint) and to Lord in English translations.

You even quoted Acts 2:36 which confirms Jesus as YHWH and Adonai in Hebrew, which translate to κυριος in Greek and to Lord in English.

The Apostles did not use the title "Lord" (κυριος) for anyone besides Jesus and God the Father in the New Testament. While κυριος could be used culturally as a term of respect or authority, the Apostles specifically used "Lord" to indicate divine authority, reverence, or worship when referring to Jesus or God the Father.

For example, Peter addresses Jesus as "Lord" (κυριος) with the understanding of His divine nature, particularly after Jesus' resurrection (Acts 2:36). Similarly, "Lord" is also used in prayers addressed to God the Father (as in Acts 4:24). The Apostles reserve this title, in its spiritual sense, for the divine alone, and there is no record of them calling any other human "Lord" in the same way.

As I commended you many times before, keep those Trinitarian Verses coming!

Jews and Christians reject the deity of Jesus based on Scriptures. The messiah isn’t God, but clearly a human in the Bible. Jesus the Messiah is a human and not God. Jews actually typically have no major issues with the New Testament, but rather the Trinitarian church and their presentation of Jesus.

 

[Runningman]

You will never deal with your own confession will you?



and will change your views to meet the situation at hand.

That is not the mark of an honest interpreter of the bible

Nothing will change my views because im right. I’ve already proven Jesus was not prayed to in the Bible. Your argument is super weak.

 

[Johann]

Jews and Christians reject the deity of Jesus based on Scriptures. The messiah isn’t God, but clearly a human in the Bible. Jesus the Messiah is a human and not God. Jews actually typically have no major issues with the New Testament, but rather the Trinitarian church and their presentation of Jesus.

This is a weak argument and will not stand up under scrutiny-You say Yeshua is "a created being"--and RIGHT here you are veering off into the Netherlands--

Nothing will persuade you otherwise so it's a waste of my precious time @Runningman.

 

[synergy]

Jews and Christians reject the deity of Jesus based on Scriptures. The messiah isn’t God, but clearly a human in the Bible. Jesus the Messiah is a human and not God. Jews actually typically have no major issues with the New Testament, but rather the Trinitarian church and their presentation of Jesus.

You're clearly siding with Judaizers and Pharisees who wished to stone Jesus because of his declared Deity. When you first communicated with me you took exception to Unitarians being called Judaizers. Well, you're clearly on the Judaizer side now.

Too bad you've stopped quoting verses that are all Trinitarian. Hopefully, you'll pick up that practice again.

 

[Johann]

You're clearly siding with Judaizers and Pharisees who wished to stone Jesus because of his declared Deity. When you first communicated with me you took exception to Unitarians being called Judaizers. Well, you're clearly on the Judaizer side now.

Too bad you've stopped quoting verses that are all Trinitarian. Hopefully, you'll pick up that practice again.

No consistency brother, vacillating from one opinion to the other.
THE TRINITY

Notice the activity of all three Persons of the Trinity in unified contexts. The term "trinity," first coined by Tertullian (A.D. 160-220), is not a biblical word, but the concept is pervasive.

In the NT
the Gospels
Matt. 3:16-17; 28:19 (and parallels)
John 14:16,26; 15:26; 16:7-10
Acts ‒ Acts 2:32-33, 38-39
Paul
Rom. 1:4-5; 5:1,5; 8:1-4,8-10
1 Cor. 2:8-10; 12:4-6
2 Cor. 1:21-22; 13:14
Gal. 4:4-6
Eph. 1:3-14,17; 2:18; 3:14-17; 4:4-6
1 Thess. 1:2-5
2 Thess. 2:13
Titus 3:4-6
Peter ‒ 1 Pet. 1:2
John ‒ 1 John 3:23-24; 4:13-14; 5:6-8
Jude ‒ vv. 20-21

A plurality in God is hinted at in the OT.
Use of PLURALS for God
Name Elohim is PLURAL (see SPECIAL TOPIC: NAMES FOR DEITY, C.), but when used of God always has a SINGULAR VERB
"Us" in Genesis 1:26-27 (see full notes online); 3:22; 11:7; Isa. 6:8
"One" in the Shema (BDB 1033) of Deut. 6:4 can be PLURAL (as it is in Gen. 2:24; Ezek. 37:17; SPECIAL TOPIC: SHEMA)
"The Angel of the Lord" (see SPECIAL TOPIC: The Angel of the Lord) was a visible representative of Deity
Genesis 16:7-13; 22:11-15; 31:11,13; 48:15-16
Exodus 3:2,4; 13:21; 14:19
Judges 2:1; 6:22-23; 13:3-22
Zechariah 3:1-2
God and His Spirit are separate, Gen. 1:1-2; Ps. 104:30; Isa. 63:9-11; Ezek. 37:13-14
God (YHWH) and Messiah (Adon) are separate, Ps. 45:6-7; 110:1; Zech. 2:8-11; 10:9-12
The Messiah and the Spirit are separate, Zech. 12:10
All three are mentioned in one context in Isa. 48:16 and 61:1

The Deity of Jesus (see (see SPECIAL TOPIC: THE DEITY OF CHRIST FROM THE OT, and the NT verses: John 1:1-2; 5:18; 8:58; 10:30; 14:9; 17:11; 20:28; Rom. 9:5; Phil. 2:6; Titus 2:13; Heb. 1:8; 2 Pet. 1:1) and the personality of the Spirit (see SPECIAL TOPIC: PERSONHOOD OF THE SPIRIT) caused problems for the strict, monotheistic (see SPECIAL TOPIC: MONOTHEISM) early Jewish believers.
Tertullian ‒ subordinated the Son to the Father
Origen ‒ subordinated the divine essence of the Son and the Spirit
Arius ‒ denied Deity to the Son and Spirit
Monarchianism ‒ believed in a successive chronological manifestation of the one God in the persons of Father, then Son, and then Spirit

The Trinity is a historically developed formulation informed by the biblical material.
the full Deity of Jesus, equal to the Father, was affirmed in A.D. 325 by the Council of Nicea (cf. John 1:1; Phil. 2:6; Titus 2:13)
the full personality and Deity of the Spirit equal to the Father and Son was affirmed in A.D. 381 by the Council of Constantinople
the doctrine of the Trinity is fully expressed in Augustine's work De Trinitate. There is truly mystery here. But the NT affirms one eternal divine essence (monotheism) with three eternal personal manifestations (Father, Son, and Spirit).
For more information on the developed doctrinal understanding of the Trinity or Tri-Unity of God, see

Millard J. Erickson, Christian Theology, 2nd ed., chapter 16, "God's Three-in-Oneness: The Trinity," pp. 340-367.
Hard Sayings of the Bible, John 1:1; "One God or Three?", pp. 490-492

SPECIAL TOPIC: THE TRINITY

The Trinity -- Special Topic by Dr. Bob Utley, professor of hermeneutics (retired).

www.freebiblecommentary.org

J.

 

[Runningman]

You're clearly siding with Judaizers and Pharisees who wished to stone Jesus because of his declared Deity. When you first communicated with me you took exception to Unitarians being called Judaizers. Well, you're clearly on the Judaizer side now.

Too bad you've stopped quoting verses that are all Trinitarian. Hopefully, you'll pick up that practice again.

Um, synergy, you don't have a credible witness. Even if you were right, it wouldn't matter to me. When people don't like you or respect you as a person. As far as I am concerned, it's much more dangerous to sympathize with idolaters. That's why I am here to help you people.

 

[TomL]

Nothing will change my views because im right. I’ve already proven Jesus was not prayed to in the Bible. Your argument is super weak.

Sorry you contradict yourself often

From 1Cor 8:6 you affirmed Christ is the only Lord because you want to deny he is God

1 Corinthians 8:6 (KJV 1900) — 6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

but when you come to Acts

Acts 1:24 (KJV 1900) — 24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,

Now you want lord to be God the Father as otherwise it would refute your claim Christ was not prayed to

That is a dishonest handling of the word of God and a sure sign that you are in error

 

[Runningman]

Sorry you contradict yourself often

From 1Cor 8:6 you affirmed Christ is the only Lord because you want to deny he is God

1 Corinthians 8:6 (KJV 1900) — 6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

but when you come to Acts

Acts 1:24 (KJV 1900) — 24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,

Now you want lord to be God the Father as otherwise it would refute your claim Christ was not prayed to

That is a dishonest handling of the word of God and a sure sign that you are in error

Please show the verse with the word "prayer" and "Jesus." I won't let you run away from this.

 

[TomL]

Please show the verse with the word "prayer" and "Jesus." I won't let you run away from this.

You already ran from your own words

Sorry you contradict yourself often

From 1Cor 8:6 you affirmed Christ is the only Lord because you want to deny he is God

1 Corinthians 8:6 (KJV 1900) — 6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

but when you come to Acts

Acts 1:24 (KJV 1900) — 24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,

Now you want lord to be God the Father as otherwise it would refute your claim Christ was not prayed to

That is a dishonest handling of the word of God and a sure sign that you are in error

First you framed then you ran

 

[synergy]

Um, synergy, you don't have a credible witness. Even if you were right, it wouldn't matter to me. When people don't like you or respect you as a person. As far as I am concerned, it's much more dangerous to sympathize with idolaters. That's why I am here to help you people.

If my siding with the Bible makes you not like me then so be it. I'm not here to flatter you on your Judaizing heresies. That would make me an accomplice to all your errors. I'll stick with the Bible which proves again and again that Jesus is our Lord and our God.

 

[TomL]

Um, synergy, you don't have a credible witness. Even if you were right, it wouldn't matter to me. When people don't like you or respect you as a person. As far as I am concerned, it's much more dangerous to sympathize with idolaters. That's why I am here to help you people.

Um your flip flops and bald denials are not helping anyone.

 

[David Koberstein]

Um your flip flops and bald denials are not helping anyone.

That's why I put him on ignore.

 

[TomL]

That's why I put him on ignore.

If he was my only interest, I would also.