Some want to deny Christ his deity
The Bible does not teach to pray to Jesus
- Thread starter Runningman
- Start date
Runningman
Well-known member
Calling check mate on this forum and Trinitarianism in general. Nearly 100 pages later and we have proven unequivocally that Jesus was never given proseuchesthe, no not once, in Scripture. Nor did anyone teach anything about praying to him.
The only teaching for us Christians in Scripture in Matthew 6:6-9. We pray to Father only.
Matthew 6 (NIV)
6But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
9“This, then, is how you should pray:
“ ‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
The only teaching for us Christians in Scripture in Matthew 6:6-9. We pray to Father only.
Matthew 6 (NIV)
6But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
9“This, then, is how you should pray:
“ ‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
Runningman
Well-known member
Thank you for confessing that the Bible does not explicitly say to pray to Jesus. I respect your honesty immensely despite our apparent theological disagreements. We cannot have productive discussions, despite differences, if we cannot at least meet on the common ground of truth. We can sort the rest out after the truth has been paid proper homage to.
With that being said, Jesus taught on the matter of prayer in Matthew 6:6-9 and taught that the Father is to receive "proseuchesthe" which is the Greek equivalent for prayer.
Runningman
Well-known member
Please point out where you see the word for prayer given to Jesus present in the original language. I admit, I have already completely studied the entire Bible on this subject. If I have missed something I would like that part to be drawn to my attention. Thanks.
Bald faced fabrication
1 Corinthians 1:2 (KJV 1900) — 2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
2 Corinthians 12:8 (KJV 1900) — 8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
Acts 7:59 (KJV 1900) — 59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
1 John 5:14–15 (KJV 1900) — 14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us: 15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.
*************************************************
Acts 1:24–25 (KJV 1900) — 24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, 25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
********************************************
Revelation 5:8 (LEB) — 8 And when he took the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one of whom had a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
********************************************************
a typical bald denial of scripture as is often seen in your posts
Runningman
Well-known member
Bald faced addition to Scripture. None of those say Jesus was prayed to.
Sorry that is scripture
1 Corinthians 1:2 (KJV 1900) — 2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
2 Corinthians 12:8 (KJV 1900) — 8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
Acts 7:59 (KJV 1900) — 59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
1 John 5:14–15 (KJV 1900) — 14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us: 15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.
*************************************************
Acts 1:24–25 (KJV 1900) — 24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, 25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
********************************************
Revelation 5:8 (LEB) — 8 And when he took the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one of whom had a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
********************************************************
a typical bald denial of scripture as is often seen in your posts
Runningman
Well-known member
None of those say Jesus' name or that he was prayed to. Give it up already. You don't have any scriptural backing for praying to Jesus.
Calling check mate on this forum and Trinitarianism in general. Nearly 100 pages later and we have proven unequivocally that Jesus was never given proseuchesthe, no not once, in Scripture. Nor did anyone teach anything about praying to him.
The only teaching for us Christians in Scripture in Matthew 6:6-9. We pray to Father only.
Matthew 6 (NIV)
6But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
9“This, then, is how you should pray:
“ ‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
Sorry we have your confession Jesus is the only lord
so
Acts 1:24–25 (KJV 1900) — 24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, 25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
So that is prayer to Jesus
and you have been refuted by your own confession
Runningman
Well-known member
The Father is the Lord. Do you deny that? All of the precedent on praying to the Lord is to the Father in Scripture. I have the superior argument. I also have the plain teachings of Jesus in Matthew 6:6-9 that say to pray to the Father. Yes, that is indeed a check mate. Unitarianism beats Trinitarianism. Our book confirms what we believe to be true.
Sorry you did
Remember 1cor 8:6
1 Corinthians 8:6 (LEB) — 6 yet to us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we are for him, and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we are through him.
You affirmed Jesus was the only Lord
An honest biblical expositor does not alter his handling of scripturte to suit his doctrine
Runningman
Well-known member
Remember Matthew 11:25 and Ephesians 4:4-6 where the Father is the Lord and God. You're out of options.
Matthew 11 (NIV)
25At that time Jesus declared, “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because You have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children
Ephesians 4 (NIV)
4There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
Johann
Well-known member
Already did-no need to repeat myself.
The memra of God
• The use of the word memra helped people understand God as
transcendent and yet immanent (philosophical and metaphysical)
theories of divine presence at the same time.) The memra was the
site of God’s presence in the world and as a mediating figure. If the
Memra is just a name {utterance} that simply enables avoiding
asserting that God himself has created, appeared, supported, saved,
and thus reserves his absolute transcendence, then who, after all, did
the actual creating, appearing, supporting, saving? Either God
himself, in which case, one has hardly ‘protected’ him from contact
with the material world, or there is some other divine entity, in which
case, the Memra is not just a name. Daniel Boyarin - Harvard
Theological Review
What the Targum taught - That the Memra
was God
• Genesis 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the
earth
• And it repented the Lord through His memra that He made man on
the earth. Targum
• Exodus 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying,
• The memra of God is the torah giver. Targum.
• Exodus 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM:
• And the memra of the Lord said to Moses: Targum.
What the targum taught – the memra is the
creator
• Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image
• And the memra of the Lord created man. Targum
• Psalm 33:6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made;
• By the memra of the LORD were the heavens made; Targum
What the targum taught – we are saved by
the memra.
• Genesis 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for
righteousness.
• Abram believed in the name of the memra of the Lord. Targum
• Isaiah 45:17 But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting
salvation:
• Israel will be redeemed by the memra of God, an everlasting redemption.
Targum.
• Hosea 1:7 But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save
them by the LORD their God,
• I will have mercy of them with the memra of the Lord their God. Targum
What the targum taught – the memra was the
manifestation of the Lord. (theophany)
• Genesis 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the
garden
• They heard the voice of the memra of the Lord walking. Targum
• Genesis 18:1 And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of
Mamre:
• The memra of the Lord appeared to him by the terebith tree. Targum
• Isaiah 30:30 And the LORD shall cause his glorious voice to be heard
• And God shall cause the glorious voice of His memra to be heard.
Targum
What the targum taught – the memra was the
covenant giver.
• Genesis 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee
and thy seed
• And I will establish My covenant between my memra and between
you. Targum
• Genesis 9:12 And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I
make between me and you
• And the Lord said, “This is the sign that I set for covenant between
my memra and you. Targum
• Joshua 2:12 Now therefore, I pray you, swear unto me by the LORD,
• Now swear unto me by the memra of God. Targum
What the targum taught - The memra was a
revealer of God.
• Isaiah 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken
in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I:
and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.
• Draw near unto my memra, hear this
• Deuteronomy 32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no
god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is
there any that can deliver out of my hand.
• When the memra of the Lord shall reveal Himself to redeem His
people…and there is no God beside Me. I in My memra kill and make
alive.
J. Vernon McGee, Thru the Bible commentary [computer file], electronic ed.,
Logos Library System, (Nashville: Thomas Nelson) 1997, c1981 by J. Vernon
McGee.
• “The Word” is one of the highest and most profound titles of the Lord
Jesus Christ. To determine the exact meaning is not easy. Obviously
the Lord Jesus Christ is not the Logos of Greek philosophy; rather He
is the memra of the Hebrew Scriptures.
Is he the God of the Jews only?
• Romans 3:29 Is he the God of
the Jews only? is he not also of
the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles
also:
The logos of God.
• Philo - Jewish philosopher from Alexandria
• Taught Dualism
• God is holy and matter is evil
• God did not create matter.
• Matter and God are co-eternal
• Philo used the Memra to explain Logos theology
Aristotle
• The logos is designed to distinguish the beneficial from the harmful,
and thus also the right and the wrong. For this, in distinction from
the other animals is the property of man; that he alone has the ability
to perceive good and bad and right and wrong and other qualities.
And it is communication of these things that makes a household and
a city state.
Logos
• John borrowed the use of the term word not only from the
vocabulary of the Old Testament but also from Greek philosophy, in
which the term was essentially impersonal, signifying the rational
principle of divine reason, mind or even wisdom. The McArthur Study
Bible, John McArthur, Word Bibles, 1997, page 1573
The Archaeological Study Bible, Zondervan,
2005, page 1721
• The word logos, however had a rich tradition in Greek thought. While
logos can be a very general term meaning simply “word, account,
explanation of a thing” the philosopher Heraclitus (535-475 BC) used
it in a sense of an ordering principle for the universe. Thus logos is
the divine logic that gives order to the universe. Heraclitus appears
to have associated it with fire and to have linked it with reason within
human beings.
The Archaeological Study Bible, Zondervan,
2005, page 1721
• The sense of logos was most fully developed by the Stoics, who
taught that the universe was permeated with the logos that gave
order and rationality to all things. In late Stoicism this logos could be
equated with the pneuma “Spirit” a kind of compound of fire and air,
permeated by reason. There was a logos within each individual
person (that is human reason) and a logos that pervaded the
universe. (that is the rationality that governs the world) By extension
the logos within human beings enabled them to move in harmony
with the logos of the universe.
So when John wrote his gospel, his description of the
Word of God would speak to both his Greek and his
Jewish audience.
• John 1:1-3 1In the beginning was the Word, (logos – Divine reason)
and the Word (Logos – Divine reason) was with God, and the Word
(Logos – Divine reason) was God. 2The same was in the beginning
with God. 3All things were made by him; and without him was not
any thing made that was made.
• John 1:14 And the Word (logos – Divine reason) was made flesh, and
dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only
begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth
So when John wrote his gospel, his description of the
Word of God would speak to both his Greek and his
Jewish audience.
• John 1:1-3 1In the beginning was the Word, (Memra – manifestation
of God) and the Word (Memra – manifestation of God) was with God,
and the Word (Memra – manifestation of God) was God. 2The same
was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made by him; and
without him was not any thing made that was made.
• John 1:14 And the Word (Memra – the manifestation of God) was
made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory
as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth
John 1:14 And the Word (Memra – the manifestation of God) was made flesh, and
dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of
the Father,) full of grace and truth
• 1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of
godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen
of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world,
received up into glory.
• Genesis 15:1-2 1After these things the word of the LORD came unto
Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy
exceeding great reward. 2And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou
give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this
Eliezer of Damascus?
Loading…
www.clivechristianfellowship.org
J.
Johann
Well-known member
Already did-no need to repeat myself.
The memra of God
• The use of the word memra helped people understand God as
transcendent and yet immanent (philosophical and metaphysical)
theories of divine presence at the same time.) The memra was the
site of God’s presence in the world and as a mediating figure. If the
Memra is just a name {utterance} that simply enables avoiding
asserting that God himself has created, appeared, supported, saved,
and thus reserves his absolute transcendence, then who, after all, did
the actual creating, appearing, supporting, saving? Either God
himself, in which case, one has hardly ‘protected’ him from contact
with the material world, or there is some other divine entity, in which
case, the Memra is not just a name. Daniel Boyarin - Harvard
Theological Review
What the Targum taught - That the Memra
was God
• Genesis 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the
earth
• And it repented the Lord through His memra that He made man on
the earth. Targum
• Exodus 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying,
• The memra of God is the torah giver. Targum.
• Exodus 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM:
• And the memra of the Lord said to Moses: Targum.
What the targum taught – the memra is the
creator
• Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image
• And the memra of the Lord created man. Targum
• Psalm 33:6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made;
• By the memra of the LORD were the heavens made; Targum
What the targum taught – we are saved by
the memra.
• Genesis 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for
righteousness.
• Abram believed in the name of the memra of the Lord. Targum
• Isaiah 45:17 But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting
salvation:
• Israel will be redeemed by the memra of God, an everlasting redemption.
Targum.
• Hosea 1:7 But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save
them by the LORD their God,
• I will have mercy of them with the memra of the Lord their God. Targum
What the targum taught – the memra was the
manifestation of the Lord. (theophany)
• Genesis 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the
garden
• They heard the voice of the memra of the Lord walking. Targum
• Genesis 18:1 And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of
Mamre:
• The memra of the Lord appeared to him by the terebith tree. Targum
• Isaiah 30:30 And the LORD shall cause his glorious voice to be heard
• And God shall cause the glorious voice of His memra to be heard.
Targum
What the targum taught – the memra was the
covenant giver.
• Genesis 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee
and thy seed
• And I will establish My covenant between my memra and between
you. Targum
• Genesis 9:12 And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I
make between me and you
• And the Lord said, “This is the sign that I set for covenant between
my memra and you. Targum
• Joshua 2:12 Now therefore, I pray you, swear unto me by the LORD,
• Now swear unto me by the memra of God. Targum
What the targum taught - The memra was a
revealer of God.
• Isaiah 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken
in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I:
and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.
• Draw near unto my memra, hear this
• Deuteronomy 32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no
god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is
there any that can deliver out of my hand.
• When the memra of the Lord shall reveal Himself to redeem His
people…and there is no God beside Me. I in My memra kill and make
alive.
J. Vernon McGee, Thru the Bible commentary [computer file], electronic ed.,
Logos Library System, (Nashville: Thomas Nelson) 1997, c1981 by J. Vernon
McGee.
• “The Word” is one of the highest and most profound titles of the Lord
Jesus Christ. To determine the exact meaning is not easy. Obviously
the Lord Jesus Christ is not the Logos of Greek philosophy; rather He
is the memra of the Hebrew Scriptures.
Is he the God of the Jews only?
• Romans 3:29 Is he the God of
the Jews only? is he not also of
the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles
also:
The logos of God.
• Philo - Jewish philosopher from Alexandria
• Taught Dualism
• God is holy and matter is evil
• God did not create matter.
• Matter and God are co-eternal
• Philo used the Memra to explain Logos theology
Aristotle
• The logos is designed to distinguish the beneficial from the harmful,
and thus also the right and the wrong. For this, in distinction from
the other animals is the property of man; that he alone has the ability
to perceive good and bad and right and wrong and other qualities.
And it is communication of these things that makes a household and
a city state.
Logos
• John borrowed the use of the term word not only from the
vocabulary of the Old Testament but also from Greek philosophy, in
which the term was essentially impersonal, signifying the rational
principle of divine reason, mind or even wisdom. The McArthur Study
Bible, John McArthur, Word Bibles, 1997, page 1573
The Archaeological Study Bible, Zondervan,
2005, page 1721
• The word logos, however had a rich tradition in Greek thought. While
logos can be a very general term meaning simply “word, account,
explanation of a thing” the philosopher Heraclitus (535-475 BC) used
it in a sense of an ordering principle for the universe. Thus logos is
the divine logic that gives order to the universe. Heraclitus appears
to have associated it with fire and to have linked it with reason within
human beings.
The Archaeological Study Bible, Zondervan,
2005, page 1721
• The sense of logos was most fully developed by the Stoics, who
taught that the universe was permeated with the logos that gave
order and rationality to all things. In late Stoicism this logos could be
equated with the pneuma “Spirit” a kind of compound of fire and air,
permeated by reason. There was a logos within each individual
person (that is human reason) and a logos that pervaded the
universe. (that is the rationality that governs the world) By extension
the logos within human beings enabled them to move in harmony
with the logos of the universe.
So when John wrote his gospel, his description of the
Word of God would speak to both his Greek and his
Jewish audience.
• John 1:1-3 1In the beginning was the Word, (logos – Divine reason)
and the Word (Logos – Divine reason) was with God, and the Word
(Logos – Divine reason) was God. 2The same was in the beginning
with God. 3All things were made by him; and without him was not
any thing made that was made.
• John 1:14 And the Word (logos – Divine reason) was made flesh, and
dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only
begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth
So when John wrote his gospel, his description of the
Word of God would speak to both his Greek and his
Jewish audience.
• John 1:1-3 1In the beginning was the Word, (Memra – manifestation
of God) and the Word (Memra – manifestation of God) was with God,
and the Word (Memra – manifestation of God) was God. 2The same
was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made by him; and
without him was not any thing made that was made.
• John 1:14 And the Word (Memra – the manifestation of God) was
made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory
as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth
John 1:14 And the Word (Memra – the manifestation of God) was made flesh, and
dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of
the Father,) full of grace and truth
• 1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of
godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen
of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world,
received up into glory.
• Genesis 15:1-2 1After these things the word of the LORD came unto
Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy
exceeding great reward. 2And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou
give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this
Eliezer of Damascus?
Loading…
www.clivechristianfellowship.org
J.
I ask you to consider the following: (These 14 points by Kenneth E. Thomas)
Christ is the "one in charge" of everything that affects my spiritual life (1 Corinthians 15:27), but I can't talk to him?
Christ is the Head of the body of which I am a member, but I can't talk to Him?
Christ is the Vine in which I am a branch (John 15:1-8), from Whom I derive all of my spiritual sustenance, but I can't talk to Him?
Christ is the King of the kingdom of which I am a citizen, but I can't talk to the King?
Christ is the Captain of my salvation (Hebrews 2:10), but I can't talk to my Captain?
Christ is my Brother (Hebrews 2:11), but I can't talk to my Brother?
Christ is my High Priest (Hebrews 3:1) He offered Himself for my sins, He is touched with all of the feelings of my infirmities (Hebrews 4:15), and is over the house of God of which I am a part (Hebrews 10:21), but I can't talk to my High Priest? (1 Timothy 2:5).
Christ is my Physician (Luke 5:31), but I can't talk to my Physician?
Christ is the Bishop of my soul(1 Peter 2:25), but I can't talk to my Bishop?
Christ is the Bridegroom of the church (His bride)(2 Corinthians 11:2; Ephesians 5:22-33, but the bride can't talk to the bridegroom?
Christ is my "Counselor" (Isaiah 9:6), but I can't talk to my Counselor?
Christ is my Friend (John 15:14-15), but I can't talk to my Friend?
Christ is the "Great Shepherd of the sheep" (Hebrews 13:20), of which I am one, but I can't talk to my Shepherd?
Christ is the "Minister of the sanctuary" (Hebrews 8:2), of which I am a part, but I cannot talk to my Minister(servant)? Why, it is amazing to even contemplate! It is much more logical as well as abundantly Scriptural to "TELL IT TO JESUS."
J.
Give it up
We have you on record
Jesus Christ is the one lord so
Acts 1:24–25 (KJV 1900) — 24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, 25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
You stand refuted even while you attempt to frame your argument and deny the definition of the word prayer
refuted by your own confession
Johann
Well-known member
Ignatius of Antioch (c. 35–110 AD), in his Letter to the Ephesians, speaks of "our Lord and God, Jesus Christ," emphasizing worship and acknowledgment of His divine authority, which extends to prayer and supplication.
Polycarp of Smyrna (c. 69–155 AD) in The Martyrdom of Polycarp, reportedly prayed to Jesus in his final moments, addressing Him as "King of the ages" and asking to be accepted into His presence.
Justin Martyr (c. 100–165 AD) describes Christians as those who "pray to be delivered by Jesus crucified" (First Apology), expressing a clear indication of Jesus' divine role in receiving prayer.
Each of these early figures points to Jesus as a fitting object of prayer, recognizing His divine nature. Their writings often merge worship with invocation, signaling early acceptance of praying to Jesus as God.
Clement of Rome (c. 96 AD): In 1 Clement 59, he offers a prayer that calls upon Jesus as Lord, showing early acknowledgment of Jesus as a recipient of prayer in the church.
The Didache (c. 50–100 AD): While not strictly a “church father,” this early Christian document provides prayers in Jesus’ name and affirms worship of Him, including elements that approach direct invocation.
Tertullian (c. 155–240 AD): In Against Praxeas, Tertullian defends praying to Jesus by stressing His divine nature, highlighting that Christians address Him in prayer as God.
Origen (c. 184–253 AD): In On Prayer, Origen explains that Jesus is to be honored alongside the Father, indicating that prayer to Jesus is theologically appropriate, as He mediates between God and humanity.
Hippolytus of Rome (c. 170–235 AD): In Apostolic Tradition, Hippolytus outlines prayers that directly address Jesus, emphasizing His divine authority as worthy of supplication.
Cyprian of Carthage (c. 200–258 AD): In On the Lord's Prayer, Cyprian teaches that invoking Jesus' name is fundamental in Christian prayer, reinforcing the belief in His divine mediation.
These writings collectively illustrate that early Christians practiced praying to Jesus, grounded in their recognition of His divinity and role as intercessor.
It would be real silly of you if you don't acknowledge the ECFs on this doctrine of the Deity of Christ Jesus and prayers to Him
@Runningman.
J.
Runningman
Well-known member
There’s our proof that the Father is the one God. Case closed.
Runningman
Well-known member
I don’t mean “pray to God” or “pray to YHWH” or “pray to the Lord” and then you claim it’s referring to Jesus. Or calling out to Jesus, or appealing to Jesus, etc. There is nothing in scripture about praying to Jesus, or Son, or Word, etc.
Runningman
Well-known member
Acts 1:24-25 is a prayer to the Father. The Father is Lord, too. All precedent is praying to the Father. Doesn’t follow sound reason that without comment and against the teachings of Jesus that they would begin abruptly praying to Jesus.
There aren’t any explicit examples of praying to Jesus in scripture. Looking for you to at least admit this. Forget the idea of “giving up.” I hold the high ground in this thread and I will not be relinquishing that any time soon. The more you fight the more exposure the fact gets that Jesus isn’t given prayer in the Bible nor did anything teach anything about it.
Don’t you think that since the Bible is our book for how to conduct ourselves with God that if Jesus were God that praying to him would be something they atleast mentioned or did one time? No one ever did it in Scripture. This should show you what they originally believed versus what you believe are not the same.
Johann
Well-known member
| DO YOU believe in the Trinity? Most people in Christendom do. After all, it has been the central doctrine of the churches for centuries. In view of this, you would think that there could be no question about it. But there is, and lately even some of its supporters have added fuel to the controversy. | Number of Jehovah's Witnesses who have left the organization after reading this page: coming |
| Why should a subject like this be of any more than passing interest? Because Jesus himself said: "Eternal life is this: to know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent." So our entire future hinges on our knowing the true nature of God, and that means getting to the root of the Trinity controversy. Therefore, why not examine it for yourself?-John 17:3, Catholic Jerusalem Bible (JB). | The quickest way to see the mistake in the Jehovah's Witness interpretation of John 17:3 is in Eph 4:4-6. ("there is one God and one Lord") If "One God" excludes Jesus from God, then "One Lord" excludes God from being Lord. Yet we know that they share these identical characteristics. Jehovah is not only called the Only true God (John 17:3), but the "Only Saviour" (Isa 43:11; 45:21; Hos 13:4; Jude 25) , "Only King" (Zech 14:9). If John 17:3 excludes Jesus from being "True God", then Jesus is also excluded from being a Saviour or King. Click link for more. |
| Various Trinitarian concepts exist. But generally the Trinity teaching is that in the Godhead there are three persons, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost; yet, together they are but one God. The doctrine says that the three are coequal, almighty, and uncreated, having existed eternally in the Godhead. | Jesus is coequal with the Father being the same class of uncreated being, but not equal (subordinate) with the Father in rank. JW's deliberately confuse these two important issues. A wife is coequal with her husband as a class of created being called "man", but no equal (subordinate) with her husband in rank. Eph 5:23 |
| Others, however, say that the Trinity doctrine is false, that Almighty God stands alone as a separate, eternal, and all-powerful being. They say that Jesus in his prehuman existence was, like the angels, a separate spirit person created by God, and for this reason he must have had a beginning. They teach that Jesus has never been Almighty God's equal in any sense; he has always been subject to God and still is. They also believe that the holy ghost is not a person but God's spirit, his active force. |
