Runningman
Well-known member
What's your point exactly?
The Bible does not teach to pray to Jesus
- Thread starter Runningman
- Start date
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
See. Once again. You can't understand English. Much less any Biblical language.
What I said was clear.
Runningman
Well-known member
No problem with scripture. Just not sure in which direction you're warping it. Better to not elaborate any further.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Maybe you need to read it again. Maybe.... reference some manuscripts.
Runningman
Well-known member
Which is why you need to explain what you meant... Are you saying this means Jesus is God?
Matt 11
29Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
civic
Well-known member
No one thinks there are more than one Father. This is just another failed attempt on your part.
This is bible
Revelation 5:8 (KJV 1900) — 8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
it shows your understanding defective
Its full of the prayers of the saint
Why do you ignore it?
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Runningman
Well-known member
YHWH is the Father's personal name. He's the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. YHWH is not a title or a status. So Jesus isn't the Father, you agree with that. Therefore Jesus isn't YHWH.. hence Jesus' name means "YHWH saves."
Romans 10
13for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Runningman
Well-known member
From my perspective, you are attempting to usurp Jesus' authority. That may have worked on others, but it won't work on me. He is my Lord and he taught me to pray to the Father. I am going with that just like everyone else did in the Bible.
As far as Rev. 5:8 goes, it says the the four beasts and four and twenty elders had the prayers... you're going the wrong idea again. They didn't pray to the four beasts and four and twenty elders but rather to God on the throne.
From your perspective you are ignoring scripture because you do not understand Jesus was giving an example of how to pray not limiting or demanding but form
And no one is praying to the four beasts and twenty elders who are bringing the prayers of the saints to Jesus not the father
Revelation 5:8 (KJV 1900) — 8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
You continue to ignore scripture and fail to honor the Father by not honoring the son as you honor him
John 5:19–23 (KJV 1900) — 19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. 20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. 21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
1Cor. 1:2 To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together with all those who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours:
2Cor. 12:8 Three times I pleaded with the Lord about this, that it should leave me.
Acts 7:59 And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”
Acts 8:24 And Simon answered, “Pray for me to the Lord, that nothing of what you have said may come upon me.”
1John 5:14 And this is the confidence that we have toward him, that if we ask anything according to his will he hears us. 15 And if we know that he hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests that we have asked of him.
John 14:13 Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it.
Acts 1:24 And they prayed and said, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which one of these two you have chosen 25 to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place.”
Runningman
Well-known member
You have no discernible point with this. It seems to have reached a fever pitch with your comments that you think you can just post a bunch of verses that have the words pray or prayer in them, but then mention nothing about praying to Jesus. I have already addressed all of these with Scripture. I think you just can't accept it that the Bible teaches absolutely nothing about praying to Jesus.
When they prayed to the Lord in the Bible, that's the Father. We actually have a clear example of this in Acts 4, which of course you will avoid like the plague and for good reasons. It clearly sets the precedent and example that prayers to the Lord are not prayers to Jesus in Scripture.
Acts 4:23-30 also proves that when John and Peter prayed to the Lord they did not pray to Jesus and this is also an example of John and Peter being Unitarian in their beliefs. They didn't believe Jesus was God but rather God's servant who God anointed. They directly said it. They also didn't believe Jesus did the miracles directly, but rather God did the miracles through his servant Jesus.
Study this prayer. It will bless you tremendously.
Acts 4 (NIV)
23On their release, Peter and John went back to their own people and reported all that the chief priests and the elders had said to them. 24When they heard this, they raised their voices together in prayer to God. “Sovereign Lord,” they said, “you made the heavens and the earth and the sea, and everything in them. 25You spoke by the Holy Spirit through the mouth of your servant, our father David:
“ ‘Why do the nations rage
and the peoples plot in vain?
26The kings of the earth rise up
and the rulers band together
against the Lord
and against his anointed one. ’
27Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. 28They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen. 29Now, Lord, consider their threats and enable your servants to speak your word with great boldness. 30Stretch out your hand to heal and perform signs and wonders through the name of your holy servant Jesus.”
sorry you are in denial
you do not understand Jesus was giving an example of how to pray not limiting or demanding but one particular form
The four beasts and twenty elders who are bringing the prayers of the saints to Jesus not the father
Revelation 5:8 (KJV 1900) — 8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
You continue to ignore scripture and fail to honor the Father by not honoring the son as you honor him
John 5:19–23 (KJV 1900) — 19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. 20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. 21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
1Cor. 1:2 To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together with all those who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours:
2Cor. 12:8 Three times I pleaded with the Lord about this, that it should leave me.
Acts 7:59 And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”
1John 5:14 And this is the confidence that we have toward him, that if we ask anything according to his will he hears us. 15 And if we know that he hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests that we have asked of him.
John 14:13 Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it.
Acts 1:24 And they prayed and said, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which one of these two you have chosen 25 to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place.”
civic
Well-known member
It's like they are reading a different bible and have a different vocabulary and dictionary. They make up their own interpretations to deny and dishonor the Son.
I cannot help but think of the late Dr Martin's comments below :
The historic doctrine of the Trinity is seldom, if ever, considered without careful redefinition. If the reader consults the Metaphysical Bible Dictionary, published by the Unity School of Christianity, he will see the masterpiece of redefinition for himself. For in this particular volume, Unity has redefined exhaustively many of the cardinal terms of biblical theology, much as Mary Baker Eddy did in her Glossary of Terms in the book Science and Health With Key to the Scriptures. The reader will be positively amazed to find what has happened to biblical history, the person of Adam, the concept of human sin, spiritual depravity, and eternal judgment. One thing, however, will emerge very clearly from this study: Unity may use the terminology of the Bible, but by no stretch of the imagination can the redefinition be equated with the thing itself. Another confusing aspect of non-Christian cultists’ approach to semantics is the manner in which they will surprise the Christian with voluminous quotations from no less authority than the Bible, and give the appearance of agreeing with nearly every statement the Christian makes in attempting to evangelize the cultist. Such stock phrases as “We believe that way too; we agree on this point” or the more familiar, “[Mrs. Eddy, Mr. or Mrs. Fillmore, Mr. Evans, Dr. Buchman, Joseph Smith, or Brigham Young] says exactly the same thing; we are completely in agreement.” All such tactics based upon the juggling of terms usually have the effect of frustrating the average Christian, for he is unable to put his finger on what he knows is error, and is repeatedly tantalized by seeming agreement which, as he knows, does not exist. He is therefore often forced into silence because he is unaware of what the cultist is actually doing. Often, even though he may be aware of this in a limited sense, he hesitates to plunge into a discussion for fear of ridicule because of an inadequate background or a lack of biblical information.
The solution to this perplexing problem is far from simple. The Christian must realize that for every biblical or doctrinal term he mentions, a redefinition light flashes on in the mind of the cultist, and a lightning-fast redefinition is accomplished. Realizing that the cultist will apparently agree with the doctrine under discussion while firmly disagreeing in reality with the historical and biblical concept, the Christian is on his way to dealing effectively with cult terminology. This amazing operation of terminological redefinition works very much like a word association test in psychology.
It is simple for a cultist to spiritualize and redefine the clear meaning of biblical texts and teachings so as to be in apparent harmony with the historic Christian faith. However, such a harmony is at best a surface agreement, based upon double meanings of words that cannot stand the test of biblical context, grammar, or sound exegesis. Language is, to be sure, a complex subject; all are agreed on this. But one thing is beyond dispute, and that is that in context words mean just what they say. Either we admit this or we must be prepared to surrender all the accomplishments of grammar and scholastic progress and return to writing on cave walls with charcoal sticks in the tradition of our alleged stone-age ancestors. To illustrate this point more sharply, the experience of everyday life points out the absurdity of terminological redefinitions in every way of life.
A quick survey of how cults redefine Christian terminology illustrates this important observation.
Cult | Term | Cult Definition | Christian Definition |
Mormonism | God | Many gods | One God |
Jehovah’s Witnesses | Jesus Christ | Not god, created by Jehovah | God the Son, Creator of all |
Christian Science | Sin | Illusion, error, not real | Disobedience to God |
New Age | Salvation | Becoming One with the Universe/God | Reconciliation with God by means of Christ’s atonement |
Is it any wonder, then, that orthodox Christians feel called upon to openly denounce such perversions of clearly defined and historically accepted biblical terminology, and claim that the cults have no rights—scholastically, biblically, or linguistically—to redefine biblical terms as they do?
civic
Well-known member
Yes a person either honors both equally and if they don't they dishonor both equally.
Notice how he ignores the text stating
The very first verse
Revelation 5:8 (KJV 1900) — 8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
Mention the Lamb (Christ) and prayers
1Cor. 1:2 To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together with all those who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours:
Here Jesus Christ is clearly mentioned
does he deny calling on the lord is prayer
2Cor. 12:8 Three times I pleaded with the Lord about this, that it should leave me.
In context the lord is Jesus christ
2 Corinthians 12:7–9 (KJV 1900) — 7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. 8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. 9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
Acts 7:59 And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”
Jesus mentioned again and Stephen is asking for a reception of his spirit which is reserved for God
1John 5:14 And this is the confidence that we have toward him, that if we ask anything according to his will he hears us. 15 And if we know that he hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests that we have asked of him.
context shows
1 John 5:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
Jesus is referred to
John 14:13 Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it.
again context points to Christ
John 14:12–14 (KJV 1900) — 12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. 13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
Acts 1:24 And they prayed and said, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which one of these two you have chosen 25 to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place.”
Here prayer is specifically mentioned
the context shows
Acts 1:21–23 (KJV 1900) — 21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection. 23 And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.
It is the lord Jesus
Jesus had chosen the apostles
The apostle he had to replace was chosen by Christ
24. And they prayed. As they could not agree on the individual, they invoked the direction of God in their choice—an example which should be followed in every selection of an individual to exercise the duties of the sacred office of the ministry.
Which knowest the hearts of all men. This is often declared to be the peculiar prerogative of God, Je. 17:10, “I, Jehovah, search the heart,” &c.; Ps. 139:1, 23; 1 Ch. 28:9. Yet this attribute is also expressly ascribed to Jesus Christ, Re. 2:18; comp. 23, “These things saith the Son of God—I am he which searcheth the reins and the hearts;” Jn. 2:25; 6:64; 16:19. There are strong reasons for supposing that the apostles on this occasion addressed this prayer to the Lord Jesus Christ. (1) The name Lord—Κύριος—is the common appellation which they gave to him, Ac. 2:36; 7:59, 60; 10:36; 1 Co. 2:8; Phi. 2:11; Re. 11:8, et al. (2) We are told that they worshipped him, or rendered him divine honours after his ascension, Lu. 24:52. (3) The disciples were accustomed to address him after his crucifixion by the names Lord or God indifferently, Ac. 1:6; Jn. 20:28; Ac. 7:59. (4) This was a matter pertaining especially to the church which the Lord Jesus had redeemed, and to his own arrangement in regard to it. He had chosen the apostles; he had given them their commission; he had fixed their number; and, what is worthy of special remark here, he had been the companion of the very men here designated as candidates for the office, and knew their qualifications for this work. If the apostles ever called on the Lord Jesus after his ascension, this was a case in which they would be likely to do it. That it was done is clear from the account of the death of Stephen, Ac. 7:59, 60. And in this important matter of ordaining a new apostle to be a witness for Jesus Christ, nothing was more natural than that they should address him, though bodily absent, as they would assuredly have done if he were present
Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Acts (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 15.
Context and word meanings must be denied so he can deny prayer to Christ
as thus dishonor the Father
John 5:19–23 (KJV 1900) — 19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. 20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. 21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
Last edited:
civic
Well-known member
Amen on the biblical testimony concerning the Son who is prayed to, answers prayer, is worshipped as God, praised as God, receives the Glory of God, just the same as the Father does, receives the honor due only to God by all creation in heaven.
Yes The Unitarians ignore all of that
