civic
Well-known member
Indeed they do which is mind boggling.
The Bible does not teach to pray to Jesus
- Thread starter Runningman
- Start date
Um this is Malachi
Malachi 3:1 (UASV) — 1 “Look! I am sending my messenger, and he will prepare a way before me. And suddenly the true Lord, whom you are seeking, will come to his temple; and the messenger of the covenant will come, in whom you take delight. Look, he will certainly come,” says Jehovah of armies.
Seems he speaks of a messenger who will prepare the way for the lord coming to his temple
Mark relates this
Mark 1:1–3 (UASV) — 1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, [the Son of God]. 2 As it is written in Isaiah the prophet; “Behold, I send my messenger before your face, who will prepare your way, 3 the voice of one crying in the wilderness: ‘Make ready the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.’ ”
showing it is john the Baptist who is the messenger
And Christ the one who is coming to his temple
This naturally is the temple in Jerusalem
It is Christ's temple as he is the lord who came whose way was prepared by John the baptist
It is Jehovah's temple
Ezra 3:6–11 (UASV) — 6 From the first day of the seventh month they began to offer burnt offerings to Jehovah, but the foundation of the temple of Jehovah was not yet laid. 7 So they gave money to the masons and the carpenters, and food, drink, and oil to the Sidonians and the Tyrians to bring cedar trees from Lebanon to the sea, to Joppa, according to the grant that they had from Cyrus king of Persia. 8 Now in the second year of their coming to the house of God at Jerusalem, in the second month, Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, Jeshua the son of Jozadak, and the rest of their brothers the priests and the Levites, and all who came from the captivity to Jerusalem, began the work and appointed the Levites who were twenty years old and upward to oversee the work of the house of Jehovah. 9 Then stood Jeshua with his sons and his brethren, Kadmiel and his sons, the sons of Judah, together, to oversee the workmen in the house of God, the sons of Henadad, with their sons and their brethren the Levites. 10 And when the builders laid the foundation of the temple of Jehovah, they set the priests in their apparel with trumpets, and the Levites, the sons of Asaph with cymbals, to praise Jehovah, according to the direction of King David of Israel. 11 And they sang one to another in praising and giving thanks to Jehovah, saying, “For he is good, for his steadfast love endures forever toward Israel.” And all the people shouted with a great shout, when they praised Jehovah, because the foundation of the house of Jehovah was laid.
Jesus is Jehovah
Runningman
Well-known member
YHWH is the personal name of God and that isn’t Jesus’ name. You know good and well there are no examples of Jesus being referred to by the name above all names.
See Psalm 2:7, Psalm 110:1, Romans 10:13.
The idea of Jesus being YHWH is very easily debunked because scripture contradicts that idea repeatedly.
I know you failed to address the passage and simply offered a bald denial
Um this is Malachi
Malachi 3:1 (UASV) — 1 “Look! I am sending my messenger, and he will prepare a way before me. And suddenly the true Lord, whom you are seeking, will come to his temple; and the messenger of the covenant will come, in whom you take delight. Look, he will certainly come,” says Jehovah of armies.
Seems he speaks of a messenger who will prepare the way for the lord coming to his temple
Mark relates this
Mark 1:1–3 (UASV) — 1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, [the Son of God]. 2 As it is written in Isaiah the prophet; “Behold, I send my messenger before your face, who will prepare your way, 3 the voice of one crying in the wilderness: ‘Make ready the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.’ ”
showing it is john the Baptist who is the messenger
And Christ the one who is coming to his temple
This naturally is the temple in Jerusalem
It is Christ's temple as he is the lord who came whose way was prepared by John the baptist
It is Jehovah's temple
Ezra 3:6–11 (UASV) — 6 From the first day of the seventh month they began to offer burnt offerings to Jehovah, but the foundation of the temple of Jehovah was not yet laid. 7 So they gave money to the masons and the carpenters, and food, drink, and oil to the Sidonians and the Tyrians to bring cedar trees from Lebanon to the sea, to Joppa, according to the grant that they had from Cyrus king of Persia. 8 Now in the second year of their coming to the house of God at Jerusalem, in the second month, Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, Jeshua the son of Jozadak, and the rest of their brothers the priests and the Levites, and all who came from the captivity to Jerusalem, began the work and appointed the Levites who were twenty years old and upward to oversee the work of the house of Jehovah. 9 Then stood Jeshua with his sons and his brethren, Kadmiel and his sons, the sons of Judah, together, to oversee the workmen in the house of God, the sons of Henadad, with their sons and their brethren the Levites. 10 And when the builders laid the foundation of the temple of Jehovah, they set the priests in their apparel with trumpets, and the Levites, the sons of Asaph with cymbals, to praise Jehovah, according to the direction of King David of Israel. 11 And they sang one to another in praising and giving thanks to Jehovah, saying, “For he is good, for his steadfast love endures forever toward Israel.” And all the people shouted with a great shout, when they praised Jehovah, because the foundation of the house of Jehovah was laid.
Jesus is Jehovah
Runningman
Well-known member
YHWH is the personal name of God and that isn’t Jesus’ name. You know good and well there are no examples of Jesus being referred to by the name above all names.
See Psalm 2:7, Psalm 110:1, Romans 10:13.
The idea of Jesus being YHWH is very easily debunked because scripture contradicts that idea repeatedly.
You never addressed the text
Um this is Malachi
Malachi 3:1 (UASV) — 1 “Look! I am sending my messenger, and he will prepare a way before me. And suddenly the true Lord, whom you are seeking, will come to his temple; and the messenger of the covenant will come, in whom you take delight. Look, he will certainly come,” says Jehovah of armies.
Seems he speaks of a messenger who will prepare the way for the lord coming to his temple
Mark relates this
Mark 1:1–3 (UASV) — 1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, [the Son of God]. 2 As it is written in Isaiah the prophet; “Behold, I send my messenger before your face, who will prepare your way, 3 the voice of one crying in the wilderness: ‘Make ready the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.’ ”
showing it is john the Baptist who is the messenger
And Christ the one who is coming to his temple
This naturally is the temple in Jerusalem
It is Christ's temple as he is the lord who came whose way was prepared by John the baptist
It is Jehovah's temple
Ezra 3:6–11 (UASV) — 6 From the first day of the seventh month they began to offer burnt offerings to Jehovah, but the foundation of the temple of Jehovah was not yet laid. 7 So they gave money to the masons and the carpenters, and food, drink, and oil to the Sidonians and the Tyrians to bring cedar trees from Lebanon to the sea, to Joppa, according to the grant that they had from Cyrus king of Persia. 8 Now in the second year of their coming to the house of God at Jerusalem, in the second month, Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, Jeshua the son of Jozadak, and the rest of their brothers the priests and the Levites, and all who came from the captivity to Jerusalem, began the work and appointed the Levites who were twenty years old and upward to oversee the work of the house of Jehovah. 9 Then stood Jeshua with his sons and his brethren, Kadmiel and his sons, the sons of Judah, together, to oversee the workmen in the house of God, the sons of Henadad, with their sons and their brethren the Levites. 10 And when the builders laid the foundation of the temple of Jehovah, they set the priests in their apparel with trumpets, and the Levites, the sons of Asaph with cymbals, to praise Jehovah, according to the direction of King David of Israel. 11 And they sang one to another in praising and giving thanks to Jehovah, saying, “For he is good, for his steadfast love endures forever toward Israel.” And all the people shouted with a great shout, when they praised Jehovah, because the foundation of the house of Jehovah was laid.
Jesus is Jehovah and there are a number of such examples
Saying they are easily debunked and then failing to directly address the text will not debunk the argument
PS Rom 10:13 is Jesus
Romans 10:9–13 (KJV 1900) — 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
every verse down through verse 13 is linked to that verse by the conjunction "for"
Runningman
Well-known member
Prepared the way for YHWH, the God who was with Jesus.
Matthew 3
3This is he who was spoken of through the prophet Isaiah:
“A voice of one calling in the wilderness,
‘Prepare the way for the Lord,
make straight paths for Him.’
Correct.
False. Jesus is never described as the one John was making the paths straight for. The purpose of John's water baptism of repentance was, as the name of his repentance says, was to bring people to repentance. It was all part of the prophecy in which people would see the glory of God which was to take place after Jesus had already been alive for 30 years. Hence, John 1:9 is plain about the true light coming into the world in the present tense. Just had already been in the world for 30 years by the time the prophecy was in process of being fulfilled.
Isaiah 40
3A voice of one calling:
“Prepare the way for the LORD in the wilderness;
make a straight highway for our God in the desert.
4Every valley shall be lifted up,
and every mountain and hill made low;
the uneven ground will become smooth,
and the rugged land a plain.c
5And the glory of the LORD will be revealed,
and all humanity together will see it.
No. Jesus is the man who Jesus spoke about coming before him. John didn't refer to Jesus as the LORD but rather the Lamb of God and a man.
John 1
29The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30This is He of whom I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because He was before me.’ 31I myself did not know Him, but the reason I came baptizing with water was that He might be revealed to Israel.”
32Then John testified, “I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove and resting on Him. 33I myself did not know Him, but the One who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit descend and rest is He who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.’
No Jesus is not God in the Bible. John spoke of them as two entirely separate persons in John 1. Read it again.
You have not debunked anything except Trinitarianism.
Romans 10:13 refers to YHWH. Pretty bad you can't even get that straight. How do you manage to make such a mess of that when YHWH and Jesus are beside one another in the text of Psalm 2:7 and Psalm 110:1 and are plainly not the same person? I haven't seen any one of you people face those two verses without changing the subject.
This proves that Jesus isn't God. Read the old testament verses from which they are quoted from. You'll find that Jesus is the cornerstone and YHWH isn't. You'll also find they need to call on the name of YHWH to be saved, not Jesus.
Malachi 3:1 (UASV) — 1 “Look! I am sending my messenger, and he will prepare a way before me. And suddenly the true Lord, whom you are seeking, will come to his temple; and the messenger of the covenant will come, in whom you take delight. Look, he will certainly come,” says Jehovah of armies.
UM the father did not appear Jesus did
hello
Jesus is the Lord who appeared
Sorry you are in denial
who came and who did John announce
Mark 1 (KJV 1900) — 1 THE beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God; 2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. 3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. 4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. 5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins. 6 And John was clothed with camel’s hair, and with a girdle of a skin about his loins; and he did eat locusts and wild honey; 7 And preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose. 8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost. 9 And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan. 10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him: 11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 12 And immediately the Spirit driveth him into the wilderness. 13 And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan; and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered unto him. 14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, 15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
Sorry but it is John not Jesus who speaks about one coming before him
What LORD did John reveal?
What God did john reveal?
And so?
Did you just assume being a man he could not be God
You are begging the question again assuming your view
Runningman
Well-known member
You are making my case for me. I am agreeing with Malachi 3:1. God sent his messenger. Jesus is the messenger, the one God sent and not God. I think you are beginning to connect the dots sir.
John 13 (NIV
16Very truly I tell you, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him.
Jesus appeared, but so did God. Didn't you read about God speaking from heaven at John's baptism while Jesus was in the water? The loud voice coming from heaven... that was the Father according to Sripture.
Coming before him in the sense of rank, not chronologically. John is older than Jesus.
Jesus was talking about the Father.
YHWH.
Humans aren't God in Christianity. Jesus was resurrected a human, taken to heaven a human, etc. He is still a human. They kept on talking about him as a human decades after Jesus was already taken to heaven. Try 1 Timothy 2:5 on for size. Do you ever call God a man between God and men?
Try harder john the baptist is the messenger
Mark 1 (KJV 1900) — 1 THE beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God; 2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. 3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. 4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. 5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins. 6 And John was clothed with camel’s hair, and with a girdle of a skin about his loins; and he did eat locusts and wild honey; 7 And preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose. 8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost. 9 And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan. 10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him: 11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 12 And immediately the Spirit driveth him into the wilderness. 13 And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan; and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered unto him. 14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, 15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
compare
Isaiah 40:3–5 (UASV) — 3 A voice of one calling out, In the wilderness, “prepare the way of Jehovah; make straight in the desert a highway for our God. 4 Every valley shall be lifted up, and every mountain and hill be made low; the uneven ground shall become level, and the rough places a plain. 5 And the glory of Jehovah shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together, for the mouth of Jehovah has spoken.”
Matthew 3:1–3 (KJV 1900) — 1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, 2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. 3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
john is that voice and he prepares the wayt for Jesus
and you stand refuted
Matthew 3:3 (UASV) — 3 For this is the one referred to by Isaiah the prophet when he said, “The voice of one crying out in the wilderness, ‘Make ready the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.’ ”
civic
Well-known member
oops there goes unitarianism from their own source lol.
Runningman
Well-known member
And Jesus is a messenger as well. That is the point. That completely refutes the argument you just presented. If Jesus is not a messenger you would have a point, but he very consistently spoke the words God gave him. Trinitarianism has been soundly debunked. Thank you for providing the Scripture that proves it.
Jesus started preaching the same message as John after John went to prison. That makes Jesus a messenger. Malachi 3:1 proves that Jesus is not God.
Mark 1
14Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, 15And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
Check mate.
civic
Well-known member
YHWH Himself on many occasions declares He is the Messenger in the OT.
Next fallacy
Runningman
Well-known member
civic
Well-known member
Right lots of times
, not just oncesorry no
John the Baptist is the voice crying in the wilderness
Matthew 3:3 (UASV) — 3 For this is the one referred to by Isaiah the prophet when he said, “The voice of one crying out in the wilderness, ‘Make ready the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.’
And john prepared the way for Jesus
There was one voice one messenger to prepare the way
and BTW
And Isaiah 40:3 - 5
Isaiah 40:3–5 (KJV 1900) — 3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, Make straight in the desert a highway for our God. 4 Every valley shall be exalted, And every mountain and hill shall be made low: And the crooked shall be made straight, And the rough places plain: 5 And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed,
John 1:14 (UASV) — 14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only begotten one from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Hello the glory of jehovah was the the glory of the word who became flesh
hello are you getting that
The glory of Jehovah they saw was the glory of the word who became flesh
The only begotten of the Father
hello
Are you getting that
The only begotten of the Father
Jesus christ
All praise and glory to his name
Your doctrine is destroyed
Seeing the glory of Jesus was seeing the glory of Jehovah
He cannot deal with the fact that one voice in the wilderness is spoken of and it is John the Baptist as he prepares the way before Christ
civic
Well-known member
My grandkids can understand that passage.
That is because they are not unitarians
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Preparing the way for the "face/personage" of God in Jesus Christ.
There is no relationship with the Father without the Son. None.
