The Bible does not teach to pray to Jesus

[synergy]

Um, i hate to burst your bubble, but the Unitarian position is Scriptural.

Only if one believes in the Unitarian view that the Person who said “I am God” in Ex 3:6 is not telling the truth. There is no indication whatsoever in that verse that there is a non-God spokesman/angel speaking on behalf of God. All Prophets and Angels would always and clearly identify themselves as a spokesmen of God There is no indication of that here. In fact, it can be said that the Unitarian view renders that person an imposter.

You still haven’t realized that it's the human person (Moses, Stephen) who puts forward the name "Angel of God". It's the truth from our human perspective that it is the Preincarnate or Postincarnate Jesus that is seen by the human person. Verse 6 confirms it is God speaking but it is the Pre or Post incarnate Jesus that is seen by the human person. That perfectly aligns with the Bible, logic, and nobody is rendered an imposter.

Conclusion: Jesus is the "I Am" OT God mentioned in Ex 3 which is supported both Biblically and Logically.

I also might had, we have a lot of aces up our sleeve. Thank God Jesus mentioned John 17:3. That settles the Father being the only true God, objectively, beautifully, and completely. Your religion contradicts this fact.

Let's look at the context of John 17:3 by looking at the verses surrounding it, shall we?

(John 17:1) "Jesus spoke these words and lifted up His eyes to Heaven and said, Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son so that Your Son also may glorify You,"

As Jesus glorifies God, God is to glorify Jesus. Wait a minute. God glorifying Jesus? Think about that. Isaiah 42:8 says "I am Jehovah; that is My name; and My glory I will not give to another, nor My praise to graven images." God's glory is exclusive to himself. How do Unitarians explain God giving glory to Jesus without accusing God of Idolatry??? Trinitarianism has the answer.​

(John 17:2) "even as You have given Him authority over all flesh so that He should give eternal life to all You have given Him."

Jesus to give eternal life to all given to him. Wait a minute, isn't God the only Savior? (Hos 13:4) "Yet I am Jehovah your God from the land of Egypt, and you shall know no God but Me. For there is no Savior besides Me." That proves Jesus is Jehovah.​

(John 17:3) And this is life eternal, that they might know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

Here Jesus contrasts the Only True God with all the pagan gods out there. Paganism was the overwhelming issue facing Christians. Looking at the previous 2 verses confirms that Jesus is given glory by God and gives eternal life as only God can. So Jesus is not included in that pool of pagan gods as you're trying to do.​

(John 17:4) I have glorified You upon the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do.

(John 17:5) And now Father, glorify Me with Yourself with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

Notice "Glory me .. with the glory which I had with You before the world was." Wow! This confirms and aligns perfectly with his Preincarnate existence as the Word of God who is God (John 1:1).​

It's so over for you, man.

In summary, you continue to be blocked at every point you tried to gain a hostile foothold in the Bible. You’re a test case on what heretical thoughts exist out there and how we easily repel them each time with the Bible.

Arianism was annihilated by the Nicean and Calceldon Councils and Creeds but Arianism has resurfaced recently with the proliferation of all those heretical unitarian cults out there. Your Judaizing Cult has been Biblically trounced before and so it is being trounced now.

 

[mikesw]

Only if one believes in the Unitarian view that the Person who said “I am God” in Ex 3:6 is not telling the truth. There is no indication whatsoever in that verse that there is a non-God spokesman/angel speaking on behalf of God. All Prophets and Angels would always and clearly identify themselves as a spokesmen of God There is no indication of that here. In fact, it can be said that the Unitarian view renders that person an imposter.
. . .


(John 17:5) And now Father, glorify Me with Yourself with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

Notice "Glory me .. with the glory which I had with You before the world was." Wow! This confirms and aligns perfectly with his Preincarnate existence as the Word of God who is God (John 1:1).​

It's so over for you, man.

In summary, you continue to be blocked at every point he's tried to gain a hostile foothold in the Bible. You’re a test case on what heretical thoughts exist out there and how we easily repel them each time with the Bible.

Arianism was annihilated by the Nicean and Calceldon Councils and Creeds but it has resurfaced recently with the proliferation of all those heretical cults out there. Your Judaizing Cult has been Biblically trounced before and so it is being trounced now.

It is rather sad that runningman did not consider John 17:5 before he posted. The repeated pattern I see with the JWs and Unitarians is the failure to address critical verses that point to the divinity of Christ (in the Godhead). Even if they give some weak explanation of a divinity verse, there are like 100s they have not addressed.

 

[synergy]

It is rather sad that runningman did not consider John 17:5 before he posted. The repeated pattern I see with the JWs and Unitarians is the failure to address critical verses that point to the divinity of Christ (in the Godhead). Even if they give some weak explanation of a divinity verse, there are like 100s they have not addressed.

They're horrendous in understanding the context and the verses around the verse they cherry pick. It makes me wonder if they even understand English....

 

[mikesw]

They're horrendous in understanding the context and the verses around the verse they cherry pick. It makes me wonder if they even understand English....

It can make you wonder at times.
I asked if he had any guidance on his doctrine or just made it up on his own. If someone is thinking he has new doctrine, it should at least be discussed with some other people concerning the pros and cons of the arguments being made. Runningman is running off with unusual doctrine without any concern. We see keiw1 utilizing some sort of "write ups" instead of scholarly writings.

 

[synergy]

It can make you wonder at times.
I asked if he had any guidance on his doctrine or just made it up on his own. If someone is thinking he has new doctrine, it should at least be discussed with some other people concerning the pros and cons of the arguments being made. Runningman is running off with unusual doctrine without any concern. We see keiw1 utilizing some sort of "write ups" instead of scholarly writings.

He certainly picked the perfect name for himself because he's a man who runs away from Bible verses or runs off with unusual doctrines as you pointed out. Ex 3 has him denying what God said in Ex 3:6 that “I am the God of your father", and what Jesus said in John 8:58. He evidently makes it all up by the seat of his pants, sacrificing the Bible on the altar of his Judaizing Unitarianism.

 

[mikesw]

He certainly picked the perfect name for himself because he's a man who runs away from Bible verses or runs off with unusual doctrines as you pointed out. Ex 3 has him denying what God said in Ex 3:6 that “I am the God of your father", and what Jesus said in John 8:58. He evidently makes it all up by the seat of his pants, sacrificing the Bible on the altar of his Judaizing Unitarianism.

The additional scary part, if I have not said it before, involves other doctrines he may believe. Does he hold to legalism? What does he think becomes of Christians? At least I think it was he (or was it Studyman) who is not also a universalist. We saw that Studyman is a happy camper with Pancho Frijoles' religion. Kind of odd.
Now I wonder what he thinks of Gen 3:15 that anticipated the Messiah in conflict with the seed of Satan. Is it really just a man going up against Satan? Is it really just a man than unclean spirits recognized as the Messiah?

 

[synergy]

The additional scary part, if I have not said it before, involves other doctrines he may believe. Does he hold to legalism? What does he think becomes of Christians? At least I think it was he (or was it Studyman) who is not also a universalist. We saw that Studyman is a happy camper with Pancho Frijoles' religion. Kind of odd.
Now I wonder what he thinks of Gen 3:15 that anticipated the Messiah in conflict with the seed of Satan. Is it really just a man going up against Satan? Is it really just a man than unclean spirits recognized as the Messiah?

Unitarians are effectively rendering Jesus an imposter when he says that he saves people because the Bible clearly declares that only God saves. They won't admit to doing that but their Unitarian belief is doing just that.

That leaves the Unitarian God saving people which is no better than Islam. That's why the Baha'i are so enthralled by Unitarianism. It's very similar to Islam that they have an affinity for, being born in a sea of Muslims.

 

[Selah]

Unitarians are effectively rendering Jesus an imposter when he says that he saves people because the Bible clearly declares that only God saves. They won't admit to doing that but their Unitarian belief is doing just that.

That leaves the Unitarian God saving people which is no better than Islam. That's why the Baha'i are so enthralled by Unitarianism. It's very similar to Islam that they have an affinity for, being born in a sea of Muslims.

Yes and sadly, they say they’re Christians, but how can they be if they don’t believe in the Trinity—if they don’t believe that Jesus was God Himself who died on that cross for the whole world? That’s how much God loved us!

Thank You, Jesus,
Selah

 

[TomL]

You aren't reading what I wrote.

Let's break this down and keep it short and simple.

The below verses about me, a disciple, being like God are not about Jesus, correct?

Matthew 5
48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Ephesians 4
24And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

1 Peter 1
16Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

That simply states to be perfect or be holy

it does not state if anyone sees you he sees the Father

that would be an incredible stretch

 

[TomL]

Jesus was never prayed to once in the Bible. We have been over this already. It was an epic failure when the whole board threw themselves at this thread and failed to find one, no not even one, example of Jesus being prayed to in the Bible. No one ever taught anything about praying to Jesus in the Bible. He isn't God dude.

Here's what you need to be knowing about prayer if you want to be a Christian.

Matthew 6
6But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

9After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

Sorry you are in denial

Stephen prayed to Christ

Lord Jesus receive my Spirit

and Christ told his disciples to ask of him and He would do it

That is prayer

 

[synergy]

Yes and sadly, they say they’re Christians, but how can they be if they don’t believe in the Trinity—if they don’t believe that Jesus was God Himself who died on that cross for the whole world? That’s how much God loved us!

Thank You, Jesus,
Selah

Correct. Jesus has all the attributes of God (eternal existence, ability to save, possessing God's Glory, being worshipped, being prayed to, etc...), even declaring himself the OT God, and yet Unitarians say no, he could not possibly be God. Go figure.

 

[Micaiah]

However, The scriptures do teach that we pray to the Father in Jesus name.

 

[civic]

However, The scriptures do teach that we pray to the Father in Jesus name.

no one denies that is true but what is being denied which is tough t in the Bible is that the disciples also prayed to Jesus and He Himself said we can ask Him anything and He will do it.

 

[Runningman]

Who said I was God??? You might be entertaining the idea that you’re God because of the way you run roughshod over the Bible, freely changing words like "became" to "caused".

Trinitarianism believes that God added human nature, not that a human was made into God. You can’t even understand what Trinitarians believe let alone being able to offer any counterargument to it.

So you don’t pray to God that Jesus claimed to be in John 8:58??? You have such an irreverent attitude, it’s blasphemous. You’re siding with the Pharisees of John 8:59 in response to Jesus' claim in John 8:58.

How could Jesus be God when he did the same thing the disciples did? That's where your theology does a nose dive.

John 8:58 isn't about Jesus claiming to be God.

 

[Runningman]

There are signs of lack of instruction to assist you in understanding scripture. That is the difference I see. The idea of doctrine is that you can identify the meaning of a text within the broad context of scripture. I'm hoping you still know the Father despite your doctrine.

Your error is that you attempting to expand further upon the revelation that has already been given in Scripture in order to explain "what they really meant" in a way that is compatible with what you want to believe. If the Bible is already the revelation of the mysteries, then further expanding on them is not only vain, but futile. The way I see it is that they meant what they said in Scripture and they have nothing else to add to it because if they did then they should have taken the opportunity while it was theirs to take. Either was it not important to mention the Trinity or it isn't a Scriptural revelation.

 

[synergy]

How could Jesus be God when he did the same thing the disciples did? That's where your theology does a nose dive.

John 8:58 isn't about Jesus claiming to be God.

Jesus has all the attributes of God (eternal existence, ability to save, possessing God's Glory, being worshipped, being prayed to, etc...), even declaring himself the OT God, and yet Unitarians say no, he could not possibly be God. Go figure.

 

[mikesw]

Your error is that you attempting to expand further upon the revelation that has already been given in Scripture in order to explain "what they really meant" in a way that is compatible with what you want to believe. If the Bible is already the revelation of the mysteries, then further expanding on them is not only vain, but futile. The way I see it is that they meant what they said in Scripture and they have nothing else to add to it because if they did then they should have taken the opportunity while it was theirs to take. Either was it not important to mention the Trinity or it isn't a Scriptural revelation.

You neglect scripture to come to your view. You take the low hanging fruit that is starting to rot instead of going deeper into scripture to comprehend the nuances. You think God is so shallow that you can simply understand everything about the Godhead with a superficial reading of scriptures.
Proverbs 25:2, which states, "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter"

 

[Runningman]

Only if one believes in the Unitarian view that the Person who said “I am God” in Ex 3:6 is not telling the truth. There is no indication whatsoever in that verse that there is a non-God spokesman/angel speaking on behalf of God. All Prophets and Angels would always and clearly identify themselves as a spokesmen of God There is no indication of that here. In fact, it can be said that the Unitarian view renders that person an imposter.

You still haven’t realized that it's the human person (Moses, Stephen) who puts forward the name "Angel of God". It's the truth from our human perspective that it is the Preincarnate or Postincarnate Jesus that is seen by the human person. Verse 6 confirms it is God speaking but it is the Pre or Post incarnate Jesus that is seen by the human person. That perfectly aligns with the Bible, logic, and nobody is rendered an imposter.

Conclusion: Jesus is the "I Am" OT God mentioned in Ex 3 which is supported both Biblically and Logically.

Let's look at the context of John 17:3 by looking at the verses surrounding it, shall we?

(John 17:1) "Jesus spoke these words and lifted up His eyes to Heaven and said, Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son so that Your Son also may glorify You,"

As Jesus glorifies God, God is to glorify Jesus. Wait a minute. God glorifying Jesus? Think about that. Isaiah 42:8 says "I am Jehovah; that is My name; and My glory I will not give to another, nor My praise to graven images." God's glory is exclusive to himself. How do Unitarians explain God giving glory to Jesus without accusing God of Idolatry??? Trinitarianism has the answer.​

(John 17:2) "even as You have given Him authority over all flesh so that He should give eternal life to all You have given Him."

Jesus to give eternal life to all given to him. Wait a minute, isn't God the only Savior? (Hos 13:4) "Yet I am Jehovah your God from the land of Egypt, and you shall know no God but Me. For there is no Savior besides Me." That proves Jesus is Jehovah.​

(John 17:3) And this is life eternal, that they might know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

Here Jesus contrasts the Only True God with all the pagan gods out there. Paganism was the overwhelming issue facing Christians. Looking at the previous 2 verses confirms that Jesus is given glory by God and gives eternal life as only God can. So Jesus is not included in that pool of pagan gods as you're trying to do.​

(John 17:4) I have glorified You upon the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do.

(John 17:5) And now Father, glorify Me with Yourself with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

Notice "Glory me .. with the glory which I had with You before the world was." Wow! This confirms and aligns perfectly with his Preincarnate existence as the Word of God who is God (John 1:1).​

It's so over for you, man.

In summary, you continue to be blocked at every point you tried to gain a hostile foothold in the Bible. You’re a test case on what heretical thoughts exist out there and how we easily repel them each time with the Bible.

Arianism was annihilated by the Nicean and Calceldon Councils and Creeds but Arianism has resurfaced recently with the proliferation of all those heretical unitarian cults out there. Your Judaizing Cult has been Biblically trounced before and so it is being trounced now.

In John 17:1-3, Jesus stated that his Father is the only true God and that Jesus is the one He sent. This completely debunks Trinitarianism and removes any possibility of Jesus being God. Since the Father is the only true God, that means that He alone is God and that there are no others. The Bible is your enemy on this point and won't allow you to keep your idol.

Now that Scripture has seized control of the narrative, concerning John 17:5, this is not a verse regarding the pre-existence of Jesus, and if it were, it wouldn't be a point regarding Jesus being God. That's a Biblical impossibility at this point that you won't be allowed to entertain in this thread based on the authority of Jesus' words in John 17:1-3.

John 17:5 is regarding the glory Jesus had with the Father in the Father's foreknowledge and pre-destination. Jesus was direct about this when he said, "Glorify me now" with the glory he had before. Therefore, he didn't have the glory he was referring to before, but was only "now" getting it. Furthermore, this glory doesn't refer to having God's exclusive glory, but rather glory that God gives to people, evidenced by the fact that this glory ended up in the hands of the apostles: "And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one."

So what is the glory that Jesus had before the world was? He actually told us in Revelation, referring to himself as "the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world." This also matches the context of John 17, in which Jesus said, "The hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee...", referring to his crucifixion, saying to now glorify him with what he said he had before the creation of the world—his slaying on the cross, which didn't literally happen until after his birth in Israel.

How did he give this glory to the disciples? How did he give this glory to anyone? By being their sacrifice, of course. There is no home for your religion in John 17, John 8, etc.

 

[Runningman]

That simply states to be perfect or be holy

it does not state if anyone sees you he sees the Father

that would be an incredible stretch

So they taught about being like God. Wow. Jesus is like God and I can be like God too. That's what the divine nature is Tom. That isn't helpful for your doctrines regarding Jesus being God is it?

 

[Runningman]

Sorry you are in denial

Stephen prayed to Christ

Lord Jesus receive my Spirit

and Christ told his disciples to ask of him and He would do it

That is prayer

There are no verses which say "prayer" in conjunction with communication to Jesus anywhere in the Bible. How is talking to someone in heaven a prayer according to you? So based of your ideas, John prayed to an elder in heaven?

Revelation 7
13Then one of the elders addressed me: “These in white robes,” he asked, “who are they, and where have they come from?”

14“Sir,” I answered, “you know.”

So he replied, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.