The Bible does not teach to pray to Jesus

[Runningman]

Jesus has all the attributes of God (eternal existence, ability to save, possessing God's Glory, being worshipped, being prayed to, etc...), even declaring himself the OT God, and yet Unitarians say no, he could not possibly be God. Go figure.

Buddy, please listen to Scripture. He does not have all of the attributes of God. All versions are KJV.

Jesus is not omniscient:

Matthew 24​

36But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.​

Jesus can be tempted:

Hebrews 4​

15For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.​

God can't be tempted with sin:

James 1​

13Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:​

Jesus isn't omnipotent:

Acts 1​

7And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.​

Jesus is not equal to God:

John 14​

28Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.​

Jesus lacks a plethora of divine names and titles:

Jesus is not YHWH - Psalm 2:7, Psalm 110:1​

Jesus is not the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, YHWH, or the I AM - Exodus 3:14,15, Acts 3:13​

Jesus is not the Lord of heaven and earth - Matthew 11:25, Acts 17:24,25​

Jesus is not Sovereign Lord and Creator - Acts 4:24-27​

Jesus is not the Father - Matthew 23:9​

Jesus is not the only true God - John 17:3, 1 Thess. 1:9,10​

Jesus is not the LORD of Hosts - Psalm 46:7​

Jesus is not the King of kings and Lord of lords - 1 Timothy 6:14-16​

Jesus is not Lord God Almighty - Revelation 1:8, Revelation 21:22​

Jesus is not the Ancient of Days - Daniel 7:9​

Jesus is not the invisible God - Colossians 1:15, 1 Timothy 1:17​

Jesus is not the one God - 1 Cor. 8:6, Ephesians 4:6​

Jesus is not the Word of God - Revelation 1:2, Revelation 19:!3, Revelation 20:4​

Jesus is not the True Light - John 1:9​

There is probably a lot more. There's you a good list to get your started on finding out who God and Jesus really are.

 

[Runningman]

You neglect scripture to come to your view. You take the low hanging fruit that is starting to rot instead of going deeper into scripture to comprehend the nuances. You think God is so shallow that you can simply understand everything about the Godhead with a superficial reading of scriptures.
Proverbs 25:2, which states, "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter"

You've removed Proverbs 25:2 from it's context and applied it in a way that is not consistent with the Bible. God does give revelation so He doesn't conceal things or hold back on us unnecessarily. Hebrews 1:1,2 is pretty clear that God didn't speak in times past through the Son, but rather through the prophets. However, in these last days he spoke to us through the Son after Jesus was born.

I would also point you to Matthew 13:11, which says "He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given."

The mysteries have been given Mike. Jesus didn't include your trinity. What do you say about that? Jesus didn't do a good job? He didn't give the full revelation?

 

[mikesw]

You've removed Proverbs 25:2 from it's context and applied it in a way that is not consistent with the Bible. God does give revelation so He doesn't conceal things or hold back on us unnecessarily. Hebrews 1:1,2 is pretty clear that God didn't speak in times past through the Son, but rather through the prophets. However, in these last days he spoke to us through the Son after Jesus was born.

I would also point you to Matthew 13:11, which says "He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given."

The mysteries have been given Mike. Jesus didn't include your trinity. What do you say about that? Jesus didn't do a good job? He didn't give the full revelation?

Not convincing hun. I do not get the impression that the mysteries were revealed to you. Maybe you noticed who the audience was. It was those with Jesus. If you notice Jesus still left details unexplained since he spoke in parables. So you not only miss nuance of scripture, you miss context. Nor does Prov 25:2 exclude the point of God concealing things. Therefore, you need to be cautious in sharing your superficial thoughts about scripture. I can understand you having some skepticism about teachings. But now you are creating new teachings without a firm foundation.

 

[synergy]

In John 17:1-3, Jesus stated that his Father is the only true God and that Jesus is the one He sent. This completely debunks Trinitarianism and removes any possibility of Jesus being God. Since the Father is the only true God, that means that He alone is God and that there are no others. The Bible is your enemy on this point and won't allow you to keep your idol.

Again, here Jesus contrasts the Only True God with all the pagan gods out there. Paganism was the overwhelming issue facing Christians. Looking at the previous 2 verses confirms that God glorifies Jesus without God being accused of idolatry and Jesus gives eternal life as only God can. So Jesus is not included in that pool of pagan gods as you're trying to do.

Now that Scripture has seized control of the narrative, concerning John 17:5, this is not a verse regarding the pre-existence of Jesus, and if it were, it wouldn't be a point regarding Jesus being God. That's a Biblical impossibility at this point that you won't be allowed to entertain in this thread based on the authority of Jesus' words in John 17:1-3.

In typical fashion, you have once again run away from Bible verses. You named yourself appropriately, I see.

John 17:5 is regarding the glory Jesus had with the Father in the Father's foreknowledge and pre-destination. Jesus was direct about this when he said, "Glorify me now" with the glory he had before. Therefore, he didn't have the glory he was referring to before, but was only "now" getting it. Furthermore, this glory doesn't refer to having God's exclusive glory, but rather glory that God gives to people, evidenced by the fact that this glory ended up in the hands of the apostles: "And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one."

As Jesus glorifies God, God is to glorify Jesus. Wait a minute. God glorifying Jesus? How do Unitarians explain God giving glory to Jesus without God being accused of Idolatry??? Give me one instance where God glorified anyone else other than Jesus.

So what is the glory that Jesus had before the world was? He actually told us in Revelation, referring to himself as "the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world." This also matches the context of John 17, in which Jesus said, "The hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee...", referring to his crucifixion, saying to now glorify him with what he said he had before the creation of the world—his slaying on the cross, which didn't literally happen until after his birth in Israel.

There's a reason why Isaiah 42:8 says "I am Jehovah; that is My name; and My glory I will not give to another, nor My praise to graven images." God's glory was exclusive to himself in OT times. Now that God (Jesus) offers glory to mankind through his Crucifixion, mankind can receive God's Glory.

How did he give this glory to the disciples? How did he give this glory to anyone? By being their sacrifice, of course. There is no home for your religion in John 17, John 8, etc.

The verses I talked about are just verses you brought up. I haven't even started to mention the rest of the Bible that speaks of Jesus' eternal existence, ability to save, being worshipped, being prayed to, etc..., and Jesus declaring himself the OT God.

In fact, unitarians are effectively rendering Jesus an imposter when he says that he saves people because the Bible clearly declares that only God saves. They won't admit to doing that but their Unitarian belief is doing just that.

 

[TomL]

There are no verses which say "prayer" in conjunction with communication to Jesus anywhere in the Bible. How is talking to someone in heaven a prayer according to you? So based of your ideas, John prayed to an elder in heaven?

Revelation 7
13Then one of the elders addressed me: “These in white robes,” he asked, “who are they, and where have they come from?”

14“Sir,” I answered, “you know.”

So he replied, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

You are framing

Fact is Jesus was prayed to and instructed his disciples to do so

Stephen prayed to Christ

Lord Jesus receive my Spirit

and Christ told his disciples to ask of him and He would do it

That is prayer. You can close your eyes and pretend it did not exist, but it is scripture

 

[TomL]

So they taught about being like God. Wow. Jesus is like God and I can be like God too. That's what the divine nature is Tom. That isn't helpful for your doctrines regarding Jesus being God is it?

Except no one has ever stated you are the express image of God and they never will

 

[synergy]

There are no verses which say "prayer" in conjunction with communication to Jesus anywhere in the Bible. How is talking to someone in heaven a prayer according to you? So based of your ideas, John prayed to an elder in heaven?

Revelation 7
13Then one of the elders addressed me: “These in white robes,” he asked, “who are they, and where have they come from?”

14“Sir,” I answered, “you know.”

So he replied, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

So you're telling us that Stephen was having just a casual nonchalant conversation with Jesus who was standing on the right side of God's throne in Heaven, during Stephen's martyrdom???? How irreverent can one possibly get.

 

[synergy]

Buddy, please listen to Scripture. He does not have all of the attributes of God. All versions are KJV.

Jesus is not omniscient:

Matthew 24​

36But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.​

During Jesus' Kenosis, he humbled himself to the level of human understanding, but still retaining his Deity nature. That's the timeline of that verse. Now he's back to his full Glorious Deity Self. Your timelines are all crossed up.

Jesus can be tempted:

Hebrews 4​

15For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.​

You forget that Jesus is human too.

God can't be tempted with sin:

James 1​

13Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:​

The Father is not human so obviously he cannot be tempted as a human can.

Jesus isn't omnipotent:

Acts 1​

7And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.​

Jesus is not equal to God:

John 14​

28Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.​

The Father is higher than the Son in authority but that doesn't preclude them from both possessing Deity Nature.

Jesus lacks a plethora of divine names and titles:

Jesus is not YHWH - Psalm 2:7, Psalm 110:1​

Jesus is not the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, YHWH, or the I AM - Exodus 3:14,15, Acts 3:13​

Jesus is not the Lord of heaven and earth - Matthew 11:25, Acts 17:24,25​

Jesus is not Sovereign Lord and Creator - Acts 4:24-27​

Jesus is not the Father - Matthew 23:9​

Jesus is not the only true God - John 17:3, 1 Thess. 1:9,10​

Jesus is not the LORD of Hosts - Psalm 46:7​

Jesus is not the King of kings and Lord of lords - 1 Timothy 6:14-16​

Jesus is not Lord God Almighty - Revelation 1:8, Revelation 21:22​

Jesus is not the Ancient of Days - Daniel 7:9​

Jesus is not the invisible God - Colossians 1:15, 1 Timothy 1:17​

Jesus is not the one God - 1 Cor. 8:6, Ephesians 4:6​

Jesus is not the Word of God - Revelation 1:2, Revelation 19:!3, Revelation 20:4​

Jesus is not the True Light - John 1:9​

You can't just stamp Bible verses with your heretical views without considering context, as you did with all the previous verses. Your heretical views are thus rejected.

There is probably a lot more. There's you a good list to get your started on finding out who God and Jesus really are.

Jesus truly is God. Amen!

 

[Runningman]

Not convincing hun. I do not get the impression that the mysteries were revealed to you. Maybe you noticed who the audience was. It was those with Jesus. If you notice Jesus still left details unexplained since he spoke in parables. So you not only miss nuance of scripture, you miss context. Nor does Prov 25:2 exclude the point of God concealing things. Therefore, you need to be cautious in sharing your superficial thoughts about scripture. I can understand you having some skepticism about teachings. But now you are creating new teachings without a firm foundation.

The New Testament explains what the mysteries are, so you wouldn't have to make up anything or say something is an incomprehensible mystery, like Trinitarians say regarding the Trinity. Many are on record confessing with their mouths and believing in their hearts that they don't understand God. I believe this must be ingrained in the rank-and-file Trinitarian. When they read explicit declarations about who God is, they can't seem to believe it's that simple. Well, buddy, it's really that simple. John 17:3, Ephesians 4:6, 1 Cor. 8:6, and the cornucopia of verses that speak of God as a singular divine being known as the Father.

Wouldn't you agree that Jesus and all of the apostles are united in the same kind of faith and beliefs? I've found examples of all of them making statements that a Trinitarian wouldn't say.

Let's keep this simple and see if we can at least agree on one fundamental thing: if you're going to be a practicing Christian, then you need to do what Jesus did. Plain and simple. Do you agree with that?

 

[Runningman]

You are framing

Fact is Jesus was prayed to and instructed his disciples to do so

Stephen prayed to Christ

Lord Jesus receive my Spirit

and Christ told his disciples to ask of him and He would do it

That is prayer. You can close your eyes and pretend it did not exist, but it is scripture

I have found an example in Revelation 7 of John talking to an elder in heaven. So he was doing the same exact thing as Stephen, who talked to Jesus in heaven. Talking to someone in heaven doesn't necessarily mean praying. Your job, if you want to prove your point, is to delineate how Stephen prayed to Jesus and how John didn't pray to an elder when they were actually doing the exact same things. I don't believe you'll have an easy time doing that.

Why not just accept the fact that no one taught anything about praying to Jesus in the Bible and that the only teaching regarding prayer is to pray to the Father, such as what it says in Matthew 6:6, 9? Is it because the Bible's teachings are incompatible with what Trinitarianism teaches?

 

[Runningman]

Except no one has ever stated you are the express image of God and they never will

Scripture says people in general are made in the image of God. That includes me as well as Jesus. There is no distinction on this particular point.

Genesis 1 (KJV)
27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

1 Corinthians 11 (KJV)
7For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.

 

[Runningman]

Again, here Jesus contrasts the Only True God with all the pagan gods out there. Paganism was the overwhelming issue facing Christians. Looking at the previous 2 verses confirms that God glorifies Jesus without God being accused of idolatry and Jesus gives eternal life as only God can. So Jesus is not included in that pool of pagan gods as you're trying to do.

The context has nothing to do with pagan gods and even if it did it would still place the Father as the only true God. That excludes Jesus my friend.

In typical fashion, you have once again run away from Bible verses. You named yourself appropriately, I see.

Oh synergy, you're going to wish I would run away. You'll run away long before I do. Many already have when they can't take anymore Scripture.

As Jesus glorifies God, God is to glorify Jesus. Wait a minute. God glorifying Jesus? How do Unitarians explain God giving glory to Jesus without God being accused of Idolatry??? Give me one instance where God glorified anyone else other than Jesus.

Jesus being glorified doesn't mean he's God. We are also glorified.

Romans 8 (KJV)
17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

There's a reason why Isaiah 42:8 says "I am Jehovah; that is My name; and My glory I will not give to another, nor My praise to graven images." God's glory was exclusive to himself in OT times. Now that God (Jesus) offers glory to mankind through his Crucifixion, mankind can receive God's Glory.

Not God's exclusive glory. Don't forget, that glory was also given to the disciples. God does give people glory, just not His glory. See John 17:5 and John 5:44.

The verses I talked about are just verses you brought up. I haven't even started to mention the rest of the Bible that speaks of Jesus' eternal existence, ability to save, being worshipped, being prayed to, etc..., and Jesus declaring himself the OT God.

Please post the entire Bible if you wish. This is going to be fun when you don't find a single verse that identifies Jesus as eternal.

In fact, unitarians are effectively rendering Jesus an imposter when he says that he saves people because the Bible clearly declares that only God saves. They won't admit to doing that but their Unitarian belief is doing just that.

Only God saves, but Jesus has a role in God's plan. Absolutely. You're missing the bigger picture and you won't hear it. I doubt you'll believe John 3:16,17 plainly stating such.

John 3 (KJV)
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

 

[Runningman]

During Jesus' Kenosis, he humbled himself to the level of human understanding, but still retaining his Deity nature. That's the timeline of that verse. Now he's back to his full Glorious Deity Self. Your timelines are all crossed up.

You forget that Jesus is human too.

The Father is not human so obviously he cannot be tempted as a human can.

Temptation refers to an innermost desire for something. Are you admitting Jesus had lust and could potentially be enticed to sin?

James 1
14But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

The Father is higher than the Son in authority but that doesn't preclude them from both possessing Deity Nature.

I agree the Father is higher than the Son. You are not an orthodox Trinitarian since orthodox Trinitarianism requires co-equality. Thank you for saying such. I am glad you can be reasoned with.

You can't just stamp Bible verses with your heretical views without considering context, as you did with all the previous verses. Your heretical views are thus rejected.

Jesus truly is God. Amen!

That's ok. You can publicly reject Scripture here because it's a debate and you an avalanche of Scripture with God's names/titles that Jesus doesn't share just got dropped. I suspect you'll privately agree there are quite a number of names and titles Jesus isn't said to share with God. Since that's the case, names and titles that Jesus shares with God can't be used to support Jesus being God. See how that works?

 

[Runningman]

So you're telling us that Stephen was having just a casual nonchalant conversation with Jesus who was standing on the right side of God's throne in Heaven, during Stephen's martyrdom???? How irreverent can one possibly get.

Yeah sure it's totally possible to just chat with Jesus when you're spiritually united with him. Wait. You've never had a talk with Jesus before?

 

[TomL]

Scripture says people in general are made in the image of God. That includes me as well as Jesus. There is no distinction on this particular point.

Genesis 1 (KJV)
27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

1 Corinthians 11 (KJV)
7For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.

but never

Hebrews 1:3 (ESV) — 3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

 

[mikesw]

Reply

The New Testament explains what the mysteries are, so you wouldn't have to make up anything or say something is an incomprehensible mystery, like Trinitarians say regarding the Trinity. Many are on record confessing with their mouths and believing in their hearts that they don't understand God. I believe this must be ingrained in the rank-and-file Trinitarian. When they read explicit declarations about who God is, they can't seem to believe it's that simple. Well, buddy, it's really that simple. John 17:3, Ephesians 4:6, 1 Cor. 8:6, and the cornucopia of verses that speak of God as a singular divine being known as the Father.

Wouldn't you agree that Jesus and all of the apostles are united in the same kind of faith and beliefs? I've found examples of all of them making statements that a Trinitarian wouldn't say.

Let's keep this simple and see if we can at least agree on one fundamental thing: if you're going to be a practicing Christian, then you need to do what Jesus did. Plain and simple. Do you agree with that?

Even when you want to say something simple, you miss it. I am not healing people. I am not walking on water. Nor am I raising people from the dead. I have not confronted Pharisees. I have not even judged a nation. I'm woefully behind.
I still am waiting to see when you overcome the passages that point out the deity of Christ within the Godhead. You never overcome the arguments made against your interpretations.

 

[TomL]

I have found an example in Revelation 7 of John talking to an elder in heaven. So he was doing the same exact thing as Stephen, who talked to Jesus in heaven. Talking to someone in heaven doesn't necessarily mean praying. Your job, if you want to prove your point, is to delineate how Stephen prayed to Jesus and how John didn't pray to an elder when they were actually doing the exact same things. I don't believe you'll have an easy time doing that.

Why not just accept the fact that no one taught anything about praying to Jesus in the Bible and that the only teaching regarding prayer is to pray to the Father, such as what it says in Matthew 6:6, 9? Is it because the Bible's teachings are incompatible with what Trinitarianism teaches?

John talking to an elder in heaven while he was caught up to heaven is not parallel to Stephen on earth asking Jesus in heaven to receive his spirit.

Why not just face the fact. Your argument is weak and Jesus was prayed to

BTW it is not parallel to

John 14:12–14 (KJV 1900) — 12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. 13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

That is Jesus telling his disciples to petition him in prayer and he will do it

case closed

 

[synergy]

The context has nothing to do with pagan gods and even if it did it would still place the Father as the only true God. That excludes Jesus my friend.

You have failed miserably to prove that the context is Trinitarianism. The onus is on you to do so and prove that it's not idolatry and paganism that is being contrasted with the one true God.

Oh synergy, you're going to wish I would run away. You'll run away long before I do. Many already have when they can't take anymore Scripture.

Once again you have run away as fast as your legs can carry you. Your actions do reflect in an excellent way your name.

Jesus being glorified doesn't mean he's God. We are also glorified.

Romans 8 (KJV)
17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Not God's exclusive glory. Don't forget, that glory was also given to the disciples. God does give people glory, just not His glory. See John 17:5 and John 5:44.

You are contradicting Isaiah 42:8 when it says "I am Jehovah; that is My name; and My glory I will not give to another, nor My praise to graven images."

Please post the entire Bible if you wish. This is going to be fun when you don't find a single verse that identifies Jesus as eternal.

John 17:5 is a unitarian-slaying one of many verses that you conveniently ran away from, being true to your name.

Only God saves, but Jesus has a role in God's plan. Absolutely. You're missing the bigger picture and you won't hear it. I doubt you'll believe John 3:16,17 plainly stating such.

John 3 (KJV)
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

God says he's the only Savior of man.
Jesus says he's the only Savior of man.
Who is the only Savior of man?
I predict that you will not answer this question. You will run away as fast as your little legs can carry you.

 

[synergy]

Temptation refers to an innermost desire for something. Are you admitting Jesus had lust and could potentially be enticed to sin?

James 1
14But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

Nope. That's what you are saying, having stripped Jesus of his Deity in your mind.

I agree the Father is higher than the Son. You are not an orthodox Trinitarian since orthodox Trinitarianism requires co-equality. Thank you for saying such. I am glad you can be reasoned with.

Nope. Its perfectly orthodox to recognize that the Son is the perfect Image of the Father. They are both still God.

That's ok. You can publicly reject Scripture here because it's a debate and you an avalanche of Scripture with God's names/titles that Jesus doesn't share just got dropped. I suspect you'll privately agree there are quite a number of names and titles Jesus isn't said to share with God. Since that's the case, names and titles that Jesus shares with God can't be used to support Jesus being God. See how that works?

Until you can demonstrate that contextually they prove your heretical view, I will keep going with the non-heretical view of all those passages. You failed miserably with John 17:3 so the same thing will happen with all others.

 

[synergy]

Yeah sure it's totally possible to just chat with Jesus when you're spiritually united with him. Wait. You've never had a talk with Jesus before?

That potential matryrdom situation is not a normal situation for me. If that's normal for you, I suggest you move into a safer neighborhood.