The Bible does not teach to pray to Jesus

[Pancho Frijoles]

Kind of hard to turn a blind eye to those passages and explain the Deity of Christ away. To do so one must have presuppositions and a bias in place to read them and explain them away. Its very Sadd-u-See

That's exactly what the other side of the debate thinks of Trinitarians, civic.
We think that you and your Trinitarian fellows "must have presuppositions and a bias in place" to read all numerous verses that explicitly point out to the Oneness of God as a Person.

Calvinists think that Arminians must have presuppositions and a bias in place when you read all the numerous verses that they provide and that point out to the predestination of those who will be saved.
Arminians think that Calvinists must have presuppositions and a bias in place when you read all the numerous verses that they provide and that point out that it is man's choice to be saved or damned.

The atheists think that we, believers, must have presuppositions and a bias in place to interpret natural phenomena in the sense that there should be an Intelligent Designer behind them.
We, believers, think that the atheist must have presuppositions and a bias in place to interpret natural phenomena in the sense that they can all be produced by chance.

Perhaps we should be humble enough to admit that we all have presuppositions and biases in place to interpret the Scriptures.
We cannot aprehend the 100% of truth... perhaps only the tiny piece of truth that God needs to save us and lead us to Him.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Yes, and my heart hurts for him. He really needs to repent today.

Repent from a theological error?
No.
We cannot repent from theological intellectual errors. We repent from evil.

So please cheer up. Unless you know that your brother is doing evil things because of his/her beliefs, you don't need to feel hurt or sad.

 

[Fred]

Repent from a theological error?
No.
We cannot repent from theological intellectual errors. We repent from evil.

So please cheer up. Unless you know that your brother is doing evil things because of his/her beliefs, you don't need to feel hurt or sad.

Galatians 1:9
As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

If someone is preaching a theological error, then they are accursed. That which is accursed links with it being evil.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Yes, but you must understand the use of the word God as a proper name and God used adjectivally to describe a class of being

In the text in question, John 17:1-3, when Jesus calls his Father "The Only and True God", is the term "God" being used as a proper name of as a class of being?

If it is used adjectivally to describe a class of being, Jesus is telling his Father: "You are the Only and True member of the Class God".

The idea that God is a class that encompasses several minds (persons) comes from polytheistic cultures.
That is why Paul says that there are many gods out there, but for Christians, there is only one. Only one of those individual beings qualifies as God. God is a class that belongs to a single Person, The Father. So, in practice, you can say that God is a Person, or a class that includes only One Person.

For there are those who are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, as there are many gods and many lords. But for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist. And there is one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist (1 Cor 8:5-7)

 

[synergy]

I understand that, under the Trinitarian perspective, many people can give that interpretation. But such interpretation is not correct. Not correct from the internal analysis of the quoted psalm, not correct from a historical perspective, and not correct in the context of Jewish monotheism as presented throughout the Bible.

The Psalm is a chant praising the king. King David, and by extension, the seed of King David, the Messiah.
The Psalm is below. I have highlighted in green the sentences that make clear who is the chant directed to. In red, the verse in question.

My heart is overflowing with a good thought;​

I am speaking my works for the king;​

my tongue is the pen of a skilled scribe.​

2 You are fairer than all the sons of men;​

favor is poured on your lips;​

therefore God has blessed you forever.​

3 Gird your sword on your thigh, O mighty one,​

with your splendor and your majesty.​

4 In your majesty ride prosperously​

because of truth and meekness and righteousness;​

and your right hand will teach you awesome things.​

5 Your arrows are sharp in the heart of the king’s enemies;​

peoples will fall under you.​

6 Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;​

the scepter of Your kingdom is an upright scepter.​

7 You love righteousness and hate wickedness;​

therefore God, your God, anointed you​

with the oil of gladness above your companions.​

8 All your garments are fragrant with myrrh and aloes and cassia;​

from the ivory palaces stringed instruments make you glad.​

9 Kings’ daughters are among your honorable women;​

at your right hand stands the queen in gold of Ophir.​

​

The author of the epistle to Hebrews was not saying that the Messiah was God, but that the Messiah was anointed by God, favored more than any other man, and that his kingdom will last forever. None of the Hebrews he wrote to could ever think that The Son of David, the Messiah, would be God. That's absolutely out of scope in Jewish monotheism.​

In fact, the Psalm states that​

• God is the God of the Messiah. "God, your God" (verse 7). This goes in line with Jesus affirming that God, The Father, is HIS God.
• The Messiah is anointed by God.
• The Messiah has companions. God cannot have companions.

The expression "O God", in the text highlighted in red, is an interjection directed to God, not to King David or his seed. You can do that in poetry in the middle of any sentence to emphasize things. Consider it as an "O, God!" interjection. The Kingdom of God that the descendants of David (the Messiah) would establish would not perish, but last forever. We have proof of that in Psalm 89:3-5​

​

You have said, “I have made a covenant with my chosen one;​

I have sworn to David my servant:​

4 ‘Your offspring I will establish forever,​

and build up your throne for all generations.’ ” Selah​

​

​

This is a Psalm about the Messiah. For a Jew the Messiah is David or anyone else except Jesus. For a Christian, we follow the NT and we believe the Father when He calls His Son (the Messiah, Jesus) "God".

 

[Runningman]

Galatians 1:9
As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

If someone is preaching a theological error, then they are accursed. That which is accursed links with it being evil.

Your gospel says "Believe Jesus is God to be saved" which exists no where in scripture. Before handing out curses, maybe look in a mirror.

 

[Fred]

Your gospel says "Believe Jesus is God to be saved" which exists no where in scripture.

Romans 10:13 refutes your confusion.
https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/prayer.114/#post-4761

 

[Runningman]

Romans 10:13 refutes your confusion.
https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/prayer.114/#post-4761

Bad theology. There isn't an Old Testament verse about Jesus being YHWH.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Galatians 1:9
As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

If someone is preaching a theological error, then they are accursed. That which is accursed links with it being evil.

Well, I firmly oppose that idea and consider it not only mistaken, but perverse and dangerous.

The Gospel mentioned in Galatians 1:9, or in any other biblical text, is not a collection of dogmas.
The Gospel is a call to repent and be born again to a new life of love, so that we come become citizens of the Kingdom.

I call respectfully you, and all participants in this Forum, to reject the notion that a theological error is evil in itself. It can only be evil if leads to doing evil things, the fruits of the flesh.
The danger of the notion presented by Fred here is that we would start considering each other evil people.

I want, again, to be as firm as possible and to call the @Administrator to evaluate what is happening here with the declaration of our friend Fred and its potential implications in the way we treat members who think differently.
So let me state it in the most explicit terms:

I, Francisco Enrique Camacho Mezquita, 58-year-old, Mexican, married, Baha'i, who lives in Mexico City, and participates in this Forum under the nickname "Pancho Frijoles", and whose true photograph is shown in my avatar, firmly and publicly reject any idea posted in this Forum, in the sense that a theological mistake means evil, and that following Christ means being orthodox in doctrine. I consider that idea mistaken, perverse and dangerous.

 

[Fred]

Bad theology. There isn't an Old Testament verse about Jesus being YHWH.

Joel 2:32

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/prayer.114/#post-4761

 

[Fred]

Well, I firmly oppose that idea and consider it not only mistaken, but perverse and dangerous.

Thanks for letting us know that you consider the Book of Galatians as such.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

This is a Psalm about the Messiah. For a Jew the Messiah is David or anyone else except Jesus. For a Christian, we follow the NT and we believe the Father when He calls His Son (the Messiah, Jesus) "God".

The Father is not calling the Messiah God, for the reasons I explained in my post.
The psalmist keeps considering God the God of the Messiah, which was confirmed by Jesus, the Messiah, in John 20: 17.

As a footnote, a Christian follows both the Old and the New Testament, and the New Testament represents the teachings of Jews.
Jesus, the Jew, and his apostles, Jews.

 

[synergy]

The Father is not calling the Messiah God, for the reasons I explained in my post.
The psalmist keeps considering God the God of the Messiah, which was confirmed by Jesus, the Messiah, in John 20: 17.

As a footnote, a Christian follows both the Old and the New Testament, and the New Testament represents the teachings of Jews.
Jesus, the Jew, and his apostles, Jews.

Let's look purely at the English text, without any Trinitarian or Unitarian bias. That's fair, right?

(Heb 1:8) But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;

To the Son, the Father 1) addresses the Son as God and 2) declares that the Son's throne is forever.

So without any religious bias whatsoever, please explain who is that Son who is explicitly called God by the Father and who is that Son whose throne exists to this day and forever?

 

[Runningman]

Joel 2:32

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/prayer.114/#post-4761

Jesus isn't YHWH in the OT. Not in Psalm 2:7, Psalm 110:1. These verses are quoted in the NT as well and they clearly show Jesus and God aren't the same person and they equate the Father with YHWH not Jesus. Read Hebrews 1.

 

[Fred]

Jesus isn't YHWH in the OT. Not in Psalm 2:7, Psalm 110:1. These verses are quoted in the NT as well and they clearly show Jesus and God aren't the same person and they equate the Father with YHWH not Jesus. Read Hebrews 1.

Try not dodging the evidence I supplied.

 

[Runningman]

Try not dodging the evidence I supplied.

You quoted Joel 2:32 which proves that Jesus isn't YHWH. Your argument seems to be to the contrary. What is your case then?

 

[Fred]

You quoted Joel 2:32 which proves that Jesus isn't YHWH.

No proof for the above.

 

[Runningman]

No proof for the above.

Joel 2:32 contains the glaring omission of Jesus' name as does the entire Old Testament.

 

[Fred]

Joel 2:32 contains the glaring omission of Jesus' name as does the entire Old Testament.

Neither is the name of the Father there.
Classic.

 

[Runningman]

Neither is the name of the Father there.
Classic.

??

The Father is directly mentioned in the OT. Jesus isn't. They call YHWH the Father.