The Bible does not teach to pray to Jesus

[Pancho Frijoles]

If I'm as intelligent as you then I'm the one who's flattered. Thank you for that complement.

If one pays very special attention to the original John 1:1 Koine Greek verse, it does begin to be obvious.

Is there any thread dedicated to John 1:1 in particular?

I do believe that according to Koine Greek John 1:1 reads "...and the Word was God". I don't know if I had mentioned before, but it may be interesting to hear a Baha'i choir singing so confidently "...and the Word was God", when our fundamental belief is the Unicity of God.

However, I think that

1. "The Word" does not equal "Yeshua of Nazareth" and
2. The text is highly metaphorical. It is a metaphor the sort of: "The Speech was the Speaker", "The Seed was the Sower", or, in Baha'i language, "The Light was the Sun".

We can't interpret John 1:1 in isolation of the hundreds of verses which present the relationship between Jesus and God... we can't do it, particularly, in isolation of the three gospels that were written much before (the Synoptics).

 

[synergy]

Is there any thread dedicated to John 1:1 in particular?

I do believe that according to Koine Greek John 1:1 reads "...and the Word was God". I don't know if I had mentioned before, but it may be interesting to hear a Baha'i choir singing so confidently "...and the Word was God", when our fundamental belief is the Unicity of God.

However, I think that

1. "The Word" does not equal "Yeshua of Nazareth" and
2. The text is highly metaphorical. It is a metaphor the sort of: "The Speech was the Speaker", "The Seed was the Sower", or, in Baha'i language, "The Light was the Sun".

We can't interpret John 1:1 in isolation of the hundreds of verses which present the relationship between Jesus and God... we can't do it, particularly, in isolation of the three gospels that were written much before (the Synoptics).

Tell me who is the Word who was God (Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος - John 1:1) and was face to face to God (ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν - John 1:1) and became flesh (John 1:14)? I'll give you one guess.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Tell me who is the Word who was God (Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος - John 1:1) and was face to face to God (ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν - John 1:1) and became flesh (John 1:14)? I'll give you one guess.

I don’t think The Word is a “who”, literally.
Christ is called sometimes The Word because He brings The Word of God, the Seed of the Sower, to the earth.
The Word is a concept… a concept known to the Greek audience of the gospel of John. A concept basic to Plato’s view of reality.
The Word is God made inteligible to men… manifested to men.
So, from that perspective it is as if The Word were God.

God creates the universe, including you and me, using his Word.
God communicates truth using his Word.
God saves and gives eternal life using his Word.
Through his Word we know everything we can know about God.
So, in practice it is as if the Word itself were God for us.

The three first gospels do not present Jesus as the Logos. Only John does it, about 70 AD. There may be a reason for this and I may add details if you are interested in such discussion, but I must rest now.

Good night everybody

 

[TomL]

I have one mind.
You have one mind.
That's why we are not abstractions, but persons.

A society or community encompasses a plurality of minds. That's why "society" or "community" are abstractions.
If God encompasses a plurality of minds, then God is not a personal God. It is a concept, like "society" or "community".

Mind and will are attributes of a person not an abstraction

 

[synergy]

I don’t think The Word is a “who”, literally.

Keep reading until verses 15 and 17 and you will see the Word (Jesus) literallty referred to as a "who".

15 John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.’ ”
16 And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace.
17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

Christ is called sometimes The Word because He brings The Word of God, the Seed of the Sower, to the earth.

John 1 proves that Jesus is the Word of God.

The Word is a concept… a concept known to the Greek audience of the gospel of John. A concept basic to Plato’s view of reality.

Paul didn't scold but viewed positively some of the Greek Philosopher Poets who were sincerely searching and attaining some knowledge of God. Read Acts 17:28.

18 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring'.

People sincerely searching for God is a good thing, wouldn't you say?

The Word is God made inteligible to men… manifested to men.
So, from that perspective it is as if The Word were God.

It's not an "if" the Word was God, the Word was God. Your choir was not singing "if the Word was God". It was singing the "Word was God".

God creates the universe, including you and me, using his Word.
God communicates truth using his Word.
God saves and gives eternal life using his Word.
Through his Word we know everything we can know about God.
So, in practice it is as if the Word itself were God for us.

Again, there's no "if" uncertainty anywhere in John 1.

The three first gospels do not present Jesus as the Logos. Only John does it, about 70 AD. There may be a reason for this and I may add details if you are interested in such discussion, but I must rest now.

Starting from the OT, there were multiple Personal appearances of the Pre-Incarnate Word of God (Jesus) to OT Prophets. That clearly shows that the Pre-Incarnate Word of God was a Communicative Person who had all the attributes of a Person (Mind, Will, Individuality, etc...) Can a concept do that?

• 1 Kings 12:22 "But the Word of God came to Shemaiah the man of God, saying,"
• 1 Ch 17:3 "And it happened the same night the Word of God came to Nathan, saying,

This obviously proves that the Word of God (Jesus), who is Uncreated (John 1:3), cannot possibly be just a concept, ordinary man, or even an angel. He is God.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Keep reading until verses 15 and 17 and you will see the Word (Jesus) literallty referred to as a "who".

When using a metaphor, specially a robust one, there is a “breaking point”, so to speak, in which, if we keep using the metaphor as if it were literal discourse, things start getting problematic… and then, if we cling to the literal interpretation long enough, things start collapsing.
The Word or The Light becoming flesh, the resurrection of Christ, the Second Coming of Christ, are examples of this.

We can walk together, my friend, for a very long distance in the intellectual understanding of the Bible… and then, there will be a place where our paths will diverge, because what you think is literal I think is metaphorical, or the other way around. Now, although our intellectual paths diverge, spiritually, our path remains one and the same.

I read the verses 15 and 17 as per your remark. Jesus is undoubtedly a person. In contrast, The Word, The Light, and The Wisdom (see Proverbs 8) are abstract concepts poetically treated as if they were persons.

John 1:18 reads “No one has seen God at any time. The only Son, who is at the Father’s side, has made Him known.” The implication here is that Jesus knows God so that He can reveals God to men. Again, Jesus and God are treated as different entities, and the entity “God” is known as The Father. In John 1:34 we read: “ I have seen and have borne witness that He is the Son of God.” Jesus is then not God but the Son of God. That is why God is called “The Father”.

Paul didn't scold but viewed positively some of the Greek Philosopher Poets who were sincerely searching and attaining some knowledge of God. Read Acts 17:28.

18 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring'.
People sincerely searching for God is a good thing, wouldn't you say?

Absolutely. In fact, Bahá’u’lláh spoke of Plato and Aristotle as inspired by God.
My comment was not to demonize the concept of Logos as “pagan”.
I just mentioned it trying to explain why the gospel of John, but not the preceding three gospels, resorted to that concept.
The allegory could have sounded weird or even blasphemous for the Christians of the first decades, many of whom were Jews or strongly influenced by Jewish culture, literature and worldview. In contrast, the allegory would be well understood and welcomed by later Christians, mostly GrecoRoman in culture.

Jesus was like the incarnation in a contingent, material world of God’s realm of pure, perfect, eternal ideas.
As if God’s message had taken human form.
Just note that I say “as if”… To me this is a metaphor.

It's not an "if" the Word was God, the Word was God. Your choir was not singing "if the Word was God". It was singing the "Word was God".

I know. That’s how metaphors work and that’s why the Bahai choir was singing it so confidently.
We believe God is known to us only through the Word, so that, from our human perspective, The Word is God.

To my dog, my wife and me are his pack. Everything Quique can experience as love, loyalty, security, comes from the understanding that the three of us form a pack. This is very real from his perspective. It is TRUE at one level of reality.
It just happens that at other layer of reality, my wife and I are not his pack.

This is why Muslims and Bahai differ so much on the feelings we experience when addressing the Trinitarism of most Christians.
Bahais are used to the concept of Manifestations of God while Muslims are not.

 

[synergy]

When using a metaphor, specially a robust one, there is a “breaking point”, so to speak, in which, if we keep using the metaphor as if it were literal discourse, things start getting problematic… and then, if we cling to the literal interpretation long enough, things start collapsing.
The Word or The Light becoming flesh, the resurrection of Christ, the Second Coming of Christ, are examples of this.

We can walk together, my friend, for a very long distance in the intellectual understanding of the Bible… and then, there will be a place where our paths will diverge, because what you think is literal I think is metaphorical, or the other way around. Now, although our intellectual paths diverge, spiritually, our path remains one and the same.

I read the verses 15 and 17 as per your remark. Jesus is undoubtedly a person. In contrast, The Word, The Light, and The Wisdom (see Proverbs 8) are abstract concepts poetically treated as if they were persons.

So if you believe in an abstract Word then you believe in an abstract God because phrase "the Word was God" makes a direct relationship between Word and God.

That reminds me very much of the Muslim faith where Allah is a very remote God. So that's fine in Middle Eastern cultures.

John 1:18 reads “No one has seen God at any time. The only Son, who is at the Father’s side, has made Him known.” The implication here is that Jesus knows God so that He can reveals God to men. Again, Jesus and God are treated as different entities, and the entity “God” is known as The Father. In John 1:34 we read: “ I have seen and have borne witness that He is the Son of God.” Jesus is then not God but the Son of God. That is why God is called “The Father”.

How does that align with the fact that God appeared to Moses several times. Trinitarianism has an answer. Do you?

Absolutely. In fact, Bahá’u’lláh spoke of Plato and Aristotle as inspired by God.
My comment was not to demonize the concept of Logos as “pagan”.
I just mentioned it trying to explain why the gospel of John, but not the preceding three gospels, resorted to that concept.
The allegory could have sounded weird or even blasphemous for the Christians of the first decades, many of whom were Jews or strongly influenced by Jewish culture, literature and worldview. In contrast, the allegory would be well understood and welcomed by later Christians, mostly GrecoRoman in culture.

Jesus was like the incarnation in a contingent, material world of God’s realm of pure, perfect, eternal ideas.
As if God’s message had taken human form.
Just note that I say “as if”… To me this is a metaphor.


I know. That’s how metaphors work and that’s why the Bahai choir was singing it so confidently.
We believe God is known to us only through the Word, so that, from our human perspective, The Word is God.

To my dog, my wife and me are his pack. Everything Quique can experience as love, loyalty, security, comes from the understanding that the three of us form a pack. This is very real from his perspective. It is TRUE at one level of reality.
It just happens that at other layer of reality, my wife and I are not his pack.

This is why Muslims and Bahai differ so much on the feelings we experience when addressing the Trinitarism of most Christians.
Bahais are used to the concept of Manifestations of God while Muslims are not.

What do you say about the Personal appearances of the Pre-Incarnate Word of God (Jesus) to OT Prophets? That clearly shows that the Pre-Incarnate Word of God was a Communicative Person who had all the attributes of a Person (Mind, Will, Individuality, etc...)

• 1 Kings 12:22 "But the Word of God came to Shemaiah the man of God, saying,"
• 1 Ch 17:3 "And it happened the same night the Word of God came to Nathan, saying,

This obviously proves that the Word of God (Jesus), who is Uncreated (John 1:3), cannot possibly be just a thing (a word) or even an angel. He is God.

 

[charismaticlady]

That is a problem since Jesus prayed that the disciples would be One with the Father, himself, and each other in the same way Jesus is.

You have just subtly introduced idolatry into Scripture because if the spiritual unity of Jesus with the Father means prayers to the Father also go to Jesus then the natural consequence is we are also praying to each other. The buck stops at the Father in regards to prayer.

John 17
20I am not asking on behalf of them alone, but also on behalf of those who will believe in Me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I am in You. May they also be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.

22I have given them the glory You gave Me, so that they may be one as We are one— 23I in them and You in Me—that they may be perfectly united, so that the world may know that You sent Me and have loved them just as You have loved Me.

That is why Paul said to not be unequally yoked with nonbelievers.

 

[TomL]

Is there any thread dedicated to John 1:1 in particular?

I do believe that according to Koine Greek John 1:1 reads "...and the Word was God". I don't know if I had mentioned before, but it may be interesting to hear a Baha'i choir singing so confidently "...and the Word was God", when our fundamental belief is the Unicity of God.

However, I think that

1. "The Word" does not equal "Yeshua of Nazareth" and
2. The text is highly metaphorical. It is a metaphor the sort of: "The Speech was the Speaker", "The Seed was the Sower", or, in Baha'i language, "The Light was the Sun".

We can't interpret John 1:1 in isolation of the hundreds of verses which present the relationship between Jesus and God... we can't do it, particularly, in isolation of the three gospels that were written much before (the Synoptics).

Um Jesus of Nazareth is clearly identified

John 1:1–31 (KJV 1900) — 1 IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. 15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. 16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. 18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. 19 And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou? 20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ. 21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No. 22 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself? 23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias. 24 And they which were sent were of the Pharisees. 25 And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet? 26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not; 27 He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe’s latchet I am not worthy to unloose. 28 These things were done in Bethabara beyond Jordan, where John was baptizing. 29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. 30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me. 31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.

 

[Runningman]

That is why Paul said to not be unequally yoked with nonbelievers.

So, possibly, the Catholics are correct in their stance on prayer to the saints?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

So if you believe in an abstract Word then you believe in an abstract God because phrase "the Word was God" makes a direct relationship between Word and God.

I believe that the sentence “And the Word was God” is a metaphor, because the Bible presents God as a Personal God.
Bahaullah uses the metaphor of the sun, the sunlight and the mirror to illustrate this.
We cannot understand the sun without sunlight.
When we look up to the sky, we see a white ball and say “Look, that’s the sun!”. And we are right… in certain way.
What we see is the light (beams of photons) emitted by a star eight minutes ago, or so.
Jesus is like the light emitted by the sun. He is not literally the sun, but we know the sun exists because of the light.

When “John” says “and the Word was God” he doesn’t mean that God is an abstract Message, but that we cannot understand the existence of God but through the Message He has emitted.
As we have seen, the same “John”, even in the same chapter, treats Jesus and God as different persons, and later on, throughout his gospel, records many instances in which Jesus talks about Himself as One Sent by God, and calls his Father His God and the Only True God.

So, we should not extract theology from a single sentence in the first verse, but through the study of the whole message of the book.

How does that align with the fact that God appeared to Moses several times. Trinitarianism has an answer. Do you?

Well, The Bahai Faith has an answer for that and the only thing I can do is to respectfully share my faith with you.
We believe that Moses is a Manifestation of God, and that’s the origin of the metaphor of God and Moses speaking face to face, or the story of Moses face shining so brightly that he had to conceal his countenance from people. Moses was the Light, such as Jesus was the Light.
That light, though, comes from God. It is not inherent to Jesus nor Moses.
In the same line we have the story of the Buddha, another Manifestation of God, glowing after he achieved the awakening or enlightening. The concept enlightment, that all human beings could achieve according to Buddhism, is equivalent to John 1:9
Please note that in John 1:9 the Light is said to enlighten every man, before saying it was coming to earth.
So, the action of the Logos is permanent, and not the result of the existence of a given Messenger at a given time in history.

What do you say about the Personal appearances of the Pre-Incarnate Word of God (Jesus) to OT Prophets? That clearly shows that the Pre-Incarnate Word of God was a Communicative Person who had all the attributes of a Person (Mind, Will, Individuality, etc...)

What I say is this: According to the understanding of the Baha’i Faith that I confess, The Word of God can speak through any Personal Messenger, either in a human body or pre-existing.
Same can be said about God’s Wisdom, God’s Light, God’s Spirit. I do not consider The Word of God a different person, in the same way that I do not consider The Light of God or The Wisdom of God or The Spirit of God a different person.
Certainly, some few allegoric passages can treat them as persons, such as Proverbs 8 and John 1:1.

• 1 Kings 12:22 "But the Word of God came to Shemaiah the man of God, saying,"
• 1 Ch 17:3 "And it happened the same night the Word of God came to Nathan, saying,

This obviously proves that the Word of God (Jesus), who is Uncreated (John 1:3), cannot possibly be just a thing (a word) or even an angel. He is God.

I don’t take these passages as meaning that a preexisting Jesus appeared to Shemaniah or Nathan, but that God iluminated their minds comveying a Message. However, I may be wrong and that could have happened. We bahais also believe that pre-existing Bahaullah was responsible for the execution of some of these special appearances.
The Logos is One and eternal with God, and intrinsic to God.
But Yeshua of Nazareth or Mohammed or Husyn Alí Nurí are persons in whom The Logos has dwelled or manifested.

Let me give you an example concerning other two persons:

Jesus said that Elijah had come through John the Baptist. But this does not mean that the historical Elijah had reincarnated in John the Baptist. Then, what did it mean? It meant that the same Spirit, Light, Word, Wisdom of God that had been given to Elijah was now given to John the Baptist.
So this is how these metaphors are presented in the Scriptures.

We believe that Christ has returned… but not as Jesus the Nazarene. He has returned as Bahaullah.
This is possible because we don’t take the Word of God as a Person.

 

[charismaticlady]

So, possibly, the Catholics are correct in their stance on prayer to the saints?

Even if the dead could hear us, which they can't, Jesus is the only mediator between us and God.

 

[synergy]

I believe that the sentence “And the Word was God” is a metaphor, because the Bible presents God as a Personal God.
Bahaullah uses the metaphor of the sun, the sunlight and the mirror to illustrate this.
We cannot understand the sun without sunlight.
When we look up to the sky, we see a white ball and say “Look, that’s the sun!”. And we are right… in certain way.
What we see is the light (beams of photons) emitted by a star eight minutes ago, or so.
Jesus is like the light emitted by the sun. He is not literally the sun, but we know the sun exists because of the light.

When “John” says “and the Word was God” he doesn’t mean that God is an abstract Message, but that we cannot understand the existence of God but through the Message He has emitted.
As we have seen, the same “John”, even in the same chapter, treats Jesus and God as different persons, and later on, throughout his gospel, records many instances in which Jesus talks about Himself as One Sent by God, and calls his Father His God and the Only True God.

So, we should not extract theology from a single sentence in the first verse, but through the study of the whole message of the book.

Well, The Bahai Faith has an answer for that and the only thing I can do is to respectfully share my faith with you.
We believe that Moses is a Manifestation of God, and that’s the origin of the metaphor of God and Moses speaking face to face, or the story of Moses face shining so brightly that he had to conceal his countenance from people. Moses was the Light, such as Jesus was the Light.
That light, though, comes from God. It is not inherent to Jesus nor Moses.
In the same line we have the story of the Buddha, another Manifestation of God, glowing after he achieved the awakening or enlightening. The concept enlightment, that all human beings could achieve according to Buddhism, is equivalent to John 1:9
Please note that in John 1:9 the Light is said to enlighten every man, before saying it was coming to earth.
So, the action of the Logos is permanent, and not the result of the existence of a given Messenger at a given time in history.

What I say is this: According to the understanding of the Baha’i Faith that I confess, The Word of God can speak through any Personal Messenger, either in a human body or pre-existing.
Same can be said about God’s Wisdom, God’s Light, God’s Spirit. I do not consider The Word of God a different person, in the same way that I do not consider The Light of God or The Wisdom of God or The Spirit of God a different person.
Certainly, some few allegoric passages can treat them as persons, such as Proverbs 8 and John 1:1.



I don’t take these passages as meaning that a preexisting Jesus appeared to Shemaniah or Nathan, but that God iluminated their minds comveying a Message. However, I may be wrong and that could have happened. We bahais also believe that pre-existing Bahaullah was responsible for the execution of some of these special appearances.
The Logos is One and eternal with God, and intrinsic to God.
But Yeshua of Nazareth or Mohammed or Husyn Alí Nurí are persons in whom The Logos has dwelled or manifested.

Let me give you an example concerning other two persons:

Jesus said that Elijah had come through John the Baptist. But this does not mean that the historical Elijah had reincarnated in John the Baptist. Then, what did it mean? It meant that the same Spirit, Light, Word, Wisdom of God that had been given to Elijah was now given to John the Baptist.
So this is how these metaphors are presented in the Scriptures.

We believe that Christ has returned… but not as Jesus the Nazarene. He has returned as Bahaullah.
This is possible because we don’t take the Word of God as a Person.

Thanks for all that information. I would be interested in understanding a few things, if you have the time. Can you tell me more about the "Spirit, Light, Word, Wisdom of God". Who/what is He/it? How does He/it compare to the Holy Spirit Divine Person that all Christians are given? Does the Holy Spirit play any role in the Bahai faith? I think that's enough questions for now.

 

[civic]

I believe that the sentence “And the Word was God” is a metaphor, because the Bible presents God as a Personal God.
Bahaullah uses the metaphor of the sun, the sunlight and the mirror to illustrate this.
We cannot understand the sun without sunlight.
When we look up to the sky, we see a white ball and say “Look, that’s the sun!”. And we are right… in certain way.
What we see is the light (beams of photons) emitted by a star eight minutes ago, or so.
Jesus is like the light emitted by the sun. He is not literally the sun, but we know the sun exists because of the light.

When “John” says “and the Word was God” he doesn’t mean that God is an abstract Message, but that we cannot understand the existence of God but through the Message He has emitted.
As we have seen, the same “John”, even in the same chapter, treats Jesus and God as different persons, and later on, throughout his gospel, records many instances in which Jesus talks about Himself as One Sent by God, and calls his Father His God and the Only True God.

So, we should not extract theology from a single sentence in the first verse, but through the study of the whole message of the book.

Well, The Bahai Faith has an answer for that and the only thing I can do is to respectfully share my faith with you.
We believe that Moses is a Manifestation of God, and that’s the origin of the metaphor of God and Moses speaking face to face, or the story of Moses face shining so brightly that he had to conceal his countenance from people. Moses was the Light, such as Jesus was the Light.
That light, though, comes from God. It is not inherent to Jesus nor Moses.
In the same line we have the story of the Buddha, another Manifestation of God, glowing after he achieved the awakening or enlightening. The concept enlightment, that all human beings could achieve according to Buddhism, is equivalent to John 1:9
Please note that in John 1:9 the Light is said to enlighten every man, before saying it was coming to earth.
So, the action of the Logos is permanent, and not the result of the existence of a given Messenger at a given time in history.

What I say is this: According to the understanding of the Baha’i Faith that I confess, The Word of God can speak through any Personal Messenger, either in a human body or pre-existing.
Same can be said about God’s Wisdom, God’s Light, God’s Spirit. I do not consider The Word of God a different person, in the same way that I do not consider The Light of God or The Wisdom of God or The Spirit of God a different person.
Certainly, some few allegoric passages can treat them as persons, such as Proverbs 8 and John 1:1.



I don’t take these passages as meaning that a preexisting Jesus appeared to Shemaniah or Nathan, but that God iluminated their minds comveying a Message. However, I may be wrong and that could have happened. We bahais also believe that pre-existing Bahaullah was responsible for the execution of some of these special appearances.
The Logos is One and eternal with God, and intrinsic to God.
But Yeshua of Nazareth or Mohammed or Husyn Alí Nurí are persons in whom The Logos has dwelled or manifested.

Let me give you an example concerning other two persons:

Jesus said that Elijah had come through John the Baptist. But this does not mean that the historical Elijah had reincarnated in John the Baptist. Then, what did it mean? It meant that the same Spirit, Light, Word, Wisdom of God that had been given to Elijah was now given to John the Baptist.
So this is how these metaphors are presented in the Scriptures.

We believe that Christ has returned… but not as Jesus the Nazarene. He has returned as Bahaullah.
This is possible because we don’t take the Word of God as a Person.

The Word was with God—The preposition translated "with" is pros. In Koine Greek pros (short for prosopon pros prosopon, "face to face") was used to show intimacy in personal relationships (see Matt. 13:56; 26:18; Mark 6:3; 14:49; 1 Cor. 13:12; 6:10; 2 Cor. 5:8; Gal. 1:18). Thus, for John to say "the Word was with God" was for him to mean "the Word was face to face with God" (see Williams’s translation) or "the Word was having intimate fellowship with God." This speaks of the preincarnate Son’s relationship with the Father prior to creation—in fact, prior to everything (see 1:18; 17:5, 24) (JFB).

With God (pros ton theon). Though existing eternally with God the Logos was in perfect fellowship with God. Pros with the accusative presents a plane of equality and intimacy, face to face with each other (RWP).

The preposition "with" in the phrase "the Word was with God" indicates both equality and distinction of identity along with association. The phrase can be rendered "face to face with." It may, therefore, imply personality, coexistence with the Creator, and yet be an expression of his creative being...The preposition ðñ’ò (pros) indicates both equality and distinction of identity. Robertson says, "The literal idea comes out well, ‘face to face with God’" (RHG, p. 623). Thus this implies personality and coexistence with God. Robertson says it bespeaks of "the fellowship between the Logos and God" (EBC).


Thus John’s statement is that the divine Word not only abode with the Father from all eternity, but was in the living, active relation of communion with Him (Vincent).


Of the character of this relationship to God no further details are given. [Apparently "with God" (pros + accusative) is intended as an indication not only of place but also of disposition and orientation. - note 23] The focus is entirely on the antecedent existence of the Word, that is, that it existed before all that is created, and on the Word's participation in the divine. This latter point is made in no uncertain terms by the emphatic positioning of the predicate noun: "And God was the Word" (Ridderbos).


What we notice about all these examples [of pros in the NT], however, is that in all but one or two peculiar constructions (e.g., 1 Pet. 3:15), prosmay mean 'with' only when a person is with a person, usually in some fairly intimate relationship. And that suggests that John may already be pointing out, rather subtly, that the 'Word' he is talking about is a person, with God and therefore distinguishable from God, and enjoying a personal relationship with him (Carson).



The Greek preposition translated with suggests the idea of communion. The thought is lit. 'towards God', which requires some distinctiveness between God and the Word. But the next phrase adds a further aspect, since it affirms that the Word was God...Since the Greek has no article before God, the term must be taken setting out a characteristic of the Word. Since God is a noun, John must be affirming the Godhead of the Word. It involves not only divinity but deity (NBC).

John 1:1 and Jesus words in John 17:5 are parallels.

This is actual, real, conscious pre-existence of the Son with the Father before creation.

‎para ‎‎soi‎ - means with thee

hee ‎‎eichon – means which I had or use to have ‎

And now, Father, glorify me at your side 1 with the glory I had with you before the world was created. 2

NET © Notes

1 tn Or “in your presence”; Grk “with yourself.” The use of παρά (para) twice in this verse looks back to the assertion in John 1:1 that the Word (the Λόγος [Logos], who became Jesus of Nazareth in 1:14) was with God (πρὸς τὸν θεόν, pro" ton qeon). Whatever else may be said, the statement in 17:5 strongly asserts the preexistence of Jesus Christ.

2 tn Grk “before the world was.” The word “created” is not in the Greek text but is implied.

sn It is important to note that although Jesus prayed for a return to the glory he had at the Father’s side before the world was created, he was not praying for a “de-incarnation.” His humanity which he took on at the incarnation (John 1:14) remains, though now glorified.



hope this helps !!!

 

[Runningman]

Even if the dead could hear us, which they can't, Jesus is the only mediator between us and God.

So you can pray to living Christians right now?

 

[charismaticlady]

So you can pray to living Christians right now?

Christians are followers of Christ, and do what He says. Where does He say we are to pray to one another? He taught us to pray to His/Our Father in the name of Jesus.

 

[Runningman]

Christians are followers of Christ, and do what He says. Where does He say we are to pray to one another? He taught us to pray to His/Our Father in the name of Jesus.

Yes and amen. You are one of the few here who seems to agree with Jesus. 44 pages of people arguing against me for saying what you're saying.

 

[charismaticlady]

Yes and amen. You are one of the few here who seems to agree with Jesus. 44 pages of people arguing against me for saying what you're saying.

Thanks. One thing James said was we are to confess our sins to one another. But he doesn't say what type of sins. I wonder if it had to do with lack of faith for healing seeing as it had to do with those who were sick? I always wondered about that.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Thanks for all that information. I would be interested in understanding a few things, if you have the time. Can you tell me more about the "Spirit, Light, Word, Wisdom of God". Who/what is He/it? How does He/it compare to the Holy Spirit Divine Person that all Christians are given? Does the Holy Spirit play any role in the Bahai faith? I think that's enough questions for now.

Hi Synergy

I just placed a quotation from the Baha'i Sacred Writings in the Baha'i subforum.
In summary, the Word, the Light, the Wind (Spirit) from God are all metaphorical terms that refer to how God interacts with His creation. We could consider them the bridge or channel between God and His creation.

If you reflect on those terms, all have to do with something from God that is not a physical object but has enormous effects on us.
The Word, for example, for ancient cultures had almost magical properties. It was not crafted physically like a knife or a hammer or a fishing net. It came from the heart (from nowhere visible) and spelled into the air (also invisible) and then heard by people (an invisible act) to produce visible changes, visible effects or behaviours. When a word was pronounced, something happened. Consider these examples:

• God is presented as creating the universe with words... and the Word ("incarnated" in Christ) is presented as the vehicule or instrument of God for the creation of the universe (hence the prepositions "through" and "by" when talking about this subject).
• A verbal, audible blessing was of utmost importance. Hence the story of Balaam and many others.
• Jesus is presented healing, forgiving sins and expelling demons by means of words.
• The words of Christ are said to convey eternal life and endure forever.
• The name of God, the name of Christ, are so sacred than, when we act "in the name" of God, or in the name of his Messenger, good things happen.

Same with the Light. The light cannot be touched or smelt or heard, but it "magically" (so to speak) seems to bring life to earth. Please notice how in John 1, the Word and the Light are treated similarly. The author goes from "Word" to "Light" smoothly. The Bahai Sacred Writing also go smoothly from "Holy Spirit" to "Light". They are just terms to describe the connection between God and his creation. God's power, God's message towards us.

Regarding the spirit, as you know, it means "wind". The wind of God is also something that you cannot grasp or see, but we can perceive. The Wind of God ("the spirit of God") is not an independent person, but acts on independent persons as if it were "filling up" the mind of that person. Hence the expression "filled by the Spirit" that we find in the Bible.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

The Word was with God—The preposition translated "with" is pros. In Koine Greek pros (short for prosopon pros prosopon, "face to face") was used to show intimacy in personal relationships (see Matt. 13:56; 26:18; Mark 6:3; 14:49; 1 Cor. 13:12; 6:10; 2 Cor. 5:8; Gal. 1:18). Thus, for John to say "the Word was with God" was for him to mean "the Word was face to face with God" (see Williams’s translation) or "the Word was having intimate fellowship with God." This speaks of the preincarnate Son’s relationship with the Father prior to creation—in fact, prior to everything (see 1:18; 17:5, 24) (JFB).

With God (pros ton theon). Though existing eternally with God the Logos was in perfect fellowship with God. Pros with the accusative presents a plane of equality and intimacy, face to face with each other (RWP).

Thank you, civic, for the thoughtful and inspiring post.
Let me share with you and our readers how a metaphor that comes from the Bahai Writings has helped me to visualize this (not to understand, but just to have a primitive visualization of the matter).

Was there a time in which the sun did not emit light?
No. Because being sun implies producing light. So, light has an intimate relationship with the sun. As long as sun has existed, the light has been there with "him".
Strictly speaking the light is not the sun, as the sun is the "factory", so to speak, of light. It is the sun the source of the light, and not the other way around. However, we could not know or understand a sun without light. So everytime we see or enjoy the sunlight, it is truly as if we were seeing and enjoying the sun itself.

This is also how I understand the intimate connection of the knowledge/wisdom/word/Logos of God and God.