The Bible does not teach to pray to Jesus

[charismaticlady]

As far as the Word that "became" flesh goes, as I already pointed out above, it doesn't match how this word is used in Scripture. We can work with the idea that the Word "became" flesh but became doesn't suggest an incarnation based on how it's used in the New Testament.

If that were true, as I already pointed out above, that would mean that when "there arose" a great storm in Matthew 8:24 that it the storm existed as something else before it was a storm, yet still retained the nature of a storm, but that isn't how storms coming into being. They are caused by the effect of wind, temperature, pressure and other factors that give rise to the conditions in which a storm can develop. Furthermore, when Jesus spoke to the storm, the weather became perfectly calm in Matthew 8:26. If we apply your incarnated word idea to Matthew 8:24-26 based on your interpretation of "became" in John 1:14, then the seas were calmed by Jesus' words rather than words of Jesus themselves becoming a calm sea.

There are hundreds of examples like this all over the New Testament that don't match what you're saying. Your idea about an incarnate Word is unprecedented.

Hi there. Your comment earlier made me wonder what the problem was with other members. Lets see where I fit in. LOL

It all has to do with impregnating Mary, a virgin. Jesus was born incapable of sinning because it was the seed of the Father that impregnated Mary. Then moving ahead and seeing how the life of Jesus having no desire to sin is a foreshadowing of how human beings can go from having a sin nature to a nature that can no longer willfully sin against the laws of God called "born again of the Spirit." 1 John 3:9 "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."

Do you still agree with me?

 

[synergy]

Hi Synergy

I just placed a quotation from the Baha'i Sacred Writings in the Baha'i subforum.
In summary, the Word, the Light, the Wind (Spirit) from God are all metaphorical terms that refer to how God interacts with His creation. We could consider them the bridge or channel between God and His creation.

If you reflect on those terms, all have to do with something from God that is not a physical object but has enormous effects on us.
The Word, for example, for ancient cultures had almost magical properties. It was not crafted physically like a knife or a hammer or a fishing net. It came from the heart (from nowhere visible) and spelled into the air (also invisible) and then heard by people (an invisible act) to produce visible changes, visible effects or behaviours. When a word was pronounced, something happened. Consider these examples:

• God is presented as creating the universe with words... and the Word ("incarnated" in Christ) is presented as the vehicule or instrument of God for the creation of the universe (hence the prepositions "through" and "by" when talking about this subject).
• A verbal, audible blessing was of utmost importance. Hence the story of Balaam and many others.
• Jesus is presented healing, forgiving sins and expelling demons by means of words.
• The words of Christ are said to convey eternal life and endure forever.
• The name of God, the name of Christ, are so sacred than, when we act "in the name" of God, or in the name of his Messenger, good things happen.

Same with the Light. The light cannot be touched or smelt or heard, but it "magically" (so to speak) seems to bring life to earth. Please notice how in John 1, the Word and the Light are treated similarly. The author goes from "Word" to "Light" smoothly. The Bahai Sacred Writing also go smoothly from "Holy Spirit" to "Light". They are just terms to describe the connection between God and his creation. God's power, God's message towards us.

Regarding the spirit, as you know, it means "wind". The wind of God is also something that you cannot grasp or see, but we can perceive. The Wind of God ("the spirit of God") is not an independent person, but acts on independent persons as if it were "filling up" the mind of that person. Hence the expression "filled by the Spirit" that we find in the Bible.

The Greek NT has a lot to say also about Energies, in addition to the Word, Wind, and Light that you mentioned. Be very careful that you do not lose sight of everything that the Literal Word of God has said. You do know that Christ is the only Mediator between us and the Father, right? Buddha cannot mediate and most certainly Muhammad should never ever mediate for anyone. That leaves Jesus and he only works with the Holy Spirit Person (under the auspices of the Father) in giving us eternal life. Be careful of any other spirit or any other Word (metaphorical or not). I cannot stress that enough.

 

[TomL]

So, possibly, the Catholics are correct in their stance on prayer to the saints?

Based on what?

 

[Fred]

God

You dodged the evidence in post 785.

 

[TomL]

I believe that the sentence “And the Word was God” is a metaphor, because the Bible presents God as a Personal God.
Bahaullah uses the metaphor of the sun, the sunlight and the mirror to illustrate this.
We cannot understand the sun without sunlight.
When we look up to the sky, we see a white ball and say “Look, that’s the sun!”. And we are right… in certain way.
What we see is the light (beams of photons) emitted by a star eight minutes ago, or so.
Jesus is like the light emitted by the sun. He is not literally the sun, but we know the sun exists because of the light.

When “John” says “and the Word was God” he doesn’t mean that God is an abstract Message, but that we cannot understand the existence of God but through the Message He has emitted.
As we have seen, the same “John”, even in the same chapter, treats Jesus and God as different persons, and later on, throughout his gospel, records many instances in which Jesus talks about Himself as One Sent by God, and calls his Father His God and the Only True God.

Um maybe that is because they are different persons

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Um maybe that is because they are different persons

Are Jesus and God different persons? I believe they are.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

You dodged the evidence in post 785.

I have not.
I just don't have time to go through every single portion of every single post, my friend.
I have already tackled the verse of 1 Peter and the verse in Titus.

 

[Fred]

I have not.
I just don't have time to go through every single portion of every single post, my friend.

Cop-out.

 

[TomL]

Are Jesus and God different persons? I believe they are.

Yes, but you must understand the use of the word God as a proper name and God used adjectivally to describe a class of being

John 1:1 (KJV 1900) — 1 IN the beginning was the Word, (ho Logos) and the Word was with God (ton theon), and the Word was God.(theos)
Jesus is not the person (Ton theon) he was with, but he is God (deity)

 

[synergy]

Christians are followers of Christ, and do what He says. Where does He say we are to pray to one another? He taught us to pray to His/Our Father in the name of Jesus.

Yes and amen. You are one of the few here who seems to agree with Jesus. 44 pages of people arguing against me for saying what you're saying.

Notice that the Father calls the Son "God" in Heb 1:8.

(Heb 1:8) But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;

Conclusion: since Jesus is God then we pray to Jesus also when we pray to God.

CC: @Pancho Frijoles

 

[civic]

Notice that the Father calls the Son "God" in Heb 1:8.

(Heb 1:8) But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;

Conclusion: since Jesus is God then we pray to Jesus also when we pray to God.

CC: @Pancho Frijoles

Amen all the way through verse 12.

But about the Son he says,

“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”[e]
10 He also says,

“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11 They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12 You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.”

 

[Selah]

Greetings,
@Runningman

Jesus is God in the flesh. That’s why He is called Immanuel, which means GOD WITH US. Jesus is also called Mighty God and Everlasting Father in Isaiah 9:6.

"Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel," which is translated, "God with us."
Matthew 1:23

"Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.
Isaiah 7:14

For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 9:6

s.

 

[civic]

Greetings,
@Runningman

Jesus is God in the flesh. That’s why He is called Emmanuel, which means GOD WITH US. Jesus is also called Mighty God and Everlasting Father in Isaiah 9:6.

"Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel," which is translated, "God with us."
Matthew 1:23

"Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.
Isaiah 7:14

For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 9:6

s.

Kind of hard to turn a blind eye to those passages and explain the Deity of Christ away. To do so one must have presuppositions and a bias in place to read them and explain them away. Its very Sadd-u-See

 

[Selah]

Kind of hard to turn a blind eye to those passages and explain the Deity of Christ away. To do so one must have presuppositions and a bias in place to read them and explain them away. Its very Sadd-u-See

Yes, and my heart hurts for him. He really needs to repent today.

For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, while it is said: "Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion."

- Hebrews 3:14-15

 

[Runningman]

Thanks. One thing James said was we are to confess our sins to one another. But he doesn't say what type of sins. I wonder if it had to do with lack of faith for healing seeing as it had to do with those who were sick? I always wondered about that.

Yeah you have a point. I am not sure exactly what kinds of sins we would need to confess to each other. I think sometimes people might have secret sins they are struggling with and they may feel shame or embarrassment to tell other people. However I think James is encouraging people to confess those sins to other people so that their brother or sister can hold them accountable and maybe help them quit.

 

[Runningman]

Hi there. Your comment earlier made me wonder what the problem was with other members. Lets see where I fit in. LOL

It all has to do with impregnating Mary, a virgin. Jesus was born incapable of sinning because it was the seed of the Father that impregnated Mary. Then moving ahead and seeing how the life of Jesus having no desire to sin is a foreshadowing of how human beings can go from having a sin nature to a nature that can no longer willfully sin against the laws of God called "born again of the Spirit." 1 John 3:9 "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."

Do you still agree with me?

I can agree with that and accept that because I already believe that. If Jesus couldn't sin then why did he have temptation?

 

[Runningman]

Based on what?

The original idea was someone said that when we pray to the Father we are also praying to Jesus because they are one with each other. After that, I said something about how the disciples are one with the Father, Jesus, and each other. So if our prayers to the Father go to Jesus then they go to each other. Someone said the reason we are not be unequally is because of what seems to be our oneness with one another. That sounded like a justification to pray to saints, from my perspective, and if that was true, it sounds like praying to the saints may be Biblically viable, but I don't believe it is. What do you think?

 

[Runningman]

Greetings,
@Runningman

Jesus is God in the flesh. That’s why He is called Immanuel, which means GOD WITH US. Jesus is also called Mighty God and Everlasting Father in Isaiah 9:6.

"Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel," which is translated, "God with us."
Matthew 1:23

"Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.
Isaiah 7:14

Isaiah 7:15, concerning Immanuel says "By the time He knows enough to reject evil and choose good..." so he needed time to know to reject evil and choose good? Means Immanuel didn't inherently know the difference between good and evil. Is that God?

Immanuel is not the God who was with us, but rather God was with him and, in turn, where Jesus was God was with them.

Acts 10
37You yourselves know what has happened throughout Judea, beginning in Galilee with the baptism that John proclaimed: 38how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how Jesus went around doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, because God was with Him.

For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 9:6

s.

Do you find it concerning that not only Jesus was never called mighty God in the Bible, but also he isn't the everlasting Father nor was called that? Can you explain why he was never called those things if they are supposed to be about Jesus?

 

[TomL]

The original idea was someone said that when we pray to the Father we are also praying to Jesus because they are one with each other. After that, I said something about how the disciples are one with the Father, Jesus, and each other. So if our prayers to the Father go to Jesus then they go to each other. Someone said the reason we are not be unequally is because of what seems to be our oneness with one another. That sounded like a justification to pray to saints, from my perspective, and if that was true, it sounds like praying to the saints may be Biblically viable, but I don't believe it is. What do you think?

I do not think it proper nor do I think they can hear our prayers

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Notice that the Father calls the Son "God" in Heb 1:8.

(Heb 1:8) But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;

Conclusion: since Jesus is God then we pray to Jesus also when we pray to God.

CC: @Pancho Frijoles

I understand that, under the Trinitarian perspective, many people can give that interpretation. But such interpretation is not correct. Not correct from the internal analysis of the quoted psalm, not correct from a historical perspective, and not correct in the context of Jewish monotheism as presented throughout the Bible.

The Psalm is a chant praising the king. King David, and by extension, the seed of King David, the Messiah.
The Psalm is below. I have highlighted in green the sentences that make clear who is the chant directed to. In red, the verse in question.

My heart is overflowing with a good thought;​

I am speaking my works for the king;​

my tongue is the pen of a skilled scribe.​

2 You are fairer than all the sons of men;​

favor is poured on your lips;​

therefore God has blessed you forever.​

3 Gird your sword on your thigh, O mighty one,​

with your splendor and your majesty.​

4 In your majesty ride prosperously​

because of truth and meekness and righteousness;​

and your right hand will teach you awesome things.​

5 Your arrows are sharp in the heart of the king’s enemies;​

peoples will fall under you.​

6 Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;​

the scepter of Your kingdom is an upright scepter.​

7 You love righteousness and hate wickedness;​

therefore God, your God, anointed you​

with the oil of gladness above your companions.​

8 All your garments are fragrant with myrrh and aloes and cassia;​

from the ivory palaces stringed instruments make you glad.​

9 Kings’ daughters are among your honorable women;​

at your right hand stands the queen in gold of Ophir.​

​

The author of the epistle to Hebrews was not saying that the Messiah was God, but that the Messiah was anointed by God, favored more than any other man, and that his kingdom will last forever. None of the Hebrews he wrote to could ever think that The Son of David, the Messiah, would be God. That's absolutely out of scope in Jewish monotheism.​

In fact, the Psalm states that​

• God is the God of the Messiah. "God, your God" (verse 7). This goes in line with Jesus affirming that God, The Father, is HIS God.
• The Messiah is anointed by God.
• The Messiah has companions. God cannot have companions.

The expression "O God", in the text highlighted in red, is an interjection directed to God, not to King David or his seed. You can do that in poetry in the middle of any sentence to emphasize things. Consider it as an "O, God!" interjection. The Kingdom of God that the descendants of David (the Messiah) would establish would not perish, but last forever. We have proof of that in Psalm 89:3-5​

​

You have said, “I have made a covenant with my chosen one;​

I have sworn to David my servant:​

4 ‘Your offspring I will establish forever,​

and build up your throne for all generations.’ ” Selah​

​

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