The Bible does not teach to pray to Jesus

[Pancho Frijoles]

Um from a historical perspective you are clearly wrong

Hi TomL

From a historical perspective, the quotes you are posting were written by people who were not even born at the time the author of Hebrews wrote the epistle... or, if born, were babies or little children. The quotes you are posting range between 60 to 130 years AFTER the epistle was written.

So, the historical perspective I am referring to is the historical perspective of Jesus, his apostles and scribes.
If Paul had taught the Trinity, that would have been an enormous, radical change... another religion completely, that would have faced firm resistance from Jew converts.

Instead, we find Jew converts (the Judaizing) concerned about topics like the need to cut their foreskins, keep Sabbath and abstain from certain meals. Do you think that Jew converts would have resisted Paul on these issues, and not on the Oneness of God?

***

In the epistle of Hebrews, the author presents Christ as a priest between man and God, not as God! ... as a priest appointed by God, not God!

• 3:1 "consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Jesus Christ, who was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses was faithful in all His house.
• 4:14 "Since then we have a great High Priest who has passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to our confession.
• 5:5 "So also Christ did not glorify Himself to be made a High Priest, but it was He who said to Him: “You are My Son; today I have become Your Father.”
• 5:9,10 "...and being made perfect, He became the source of eternal salvation for all those who obey Him, being designated by God a High Priest according to the order of Melchizedek"
• 8:1 Now this is the main point of the things that we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,

 

[TomL]

Hi TomL

From a historical perspective, the quotes you are posting were written by people who were not even born at the time the author of Hebrews wrote the epistle... or, if born, were babies or little children. The quotes you are posting range between 60 to 130 years AFTER the epistle was written.

So, the historical perspective I am referring to is the historical perspective of Jesus, his apostles and scribes.
If Paul had taught the Trinity, that would have been an enormous, radical change... another religion completely, that would have faced firm resistance from Jew converts.

Instead, we find Jew converts (the Judaizing) concerned about topics like the need to cut their foreskins, keep Sabbath and abstain from certain meals. Do you think that Jew converts would have resisted Paul on these issues, and not on the Oneness of God?

***

In the epistle of Hebrews, the author presents Christ as a priest between man and God, not as God! ... as a priest appointed by God, not God!

• 3:1 "consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Jesus Christ, who was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses was faithful in all His house.
• 4:14 "Since then we have a great High Priest who has passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to our confession.
• 5:5 "So also Christ did not glorify Himself to be made a High Priest, but it was He who said to Him: “You are My Son; today I have become Your Father.”
• 5:9,10 "...and being made perfect, He became the source of eternal salvation for all those who obey Him, being designated by God a High Priest according to the order of Melchizedek"
• 8:1 Now this is the main point of the things that we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,

Um that is historical

the earliest confessions of the identity of Jesus the Christ

And you continue to conflate the noun Theos used to denote a proper name and Theos used adjectivally as a class of being i.e. deity

 

[synergy]

Jesus and God don't have a common name.

False. There exists a one to one correlation between the OT God and Jesus with the name Ἐγώ εἰμι.

Yeshua, Jesus, Immanuel, etc are not God's name.

Correction: They're not the Father's name. You can toss in Son in your list.

Here is God's name and it isn't going away, though you seem to seriously wish it would.

Jesus is never called God's eternal name in Scripture.

Exodus 3
14God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ”

15God also told Moses, “Say to the Israelites, ‘The LORD, the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you.’ This is My name forever, and this is how I am to be remembered in every generation.

Who appeared and spoke those words?

1. John 6:46 precludes the possibility that it's the Father appearing to anyone except Christ but
2. John 14:9 allows the Father to be seen when one sees Jesus, the Preincarnate Jesus in the case of Ex 3.

Conclusion: Jesus is the "I Am" OT God mentioned in Ex 3.

 

[Runningman]

False. There exists a one to one correlation between the OT God and Jesus with the name Ἐγώ εἰμι.

Correction: They're not the Father's name. You can toss in Son in your list.

Who appeared and spoke those words?

1. John 6:46 precludes the possibility that it's the Father appearing to anyone except Christ but
2. John 14:9 allows the Father to be seen when one sees Jesus, the Preincarnate Jesus in the case of Ex 3.

Conclusion: Jesus is the "I Am" OT God mentioned in Ex 3.

Jesus is never identified as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, YHWH, or said he is the I AM the same way God did. If someone is God, they need to be identified as God. What the Bible calls Jesus and God doesn't match.

 

[synergy]

Jesus is never identified as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, YHWH,

Who appeared and spoke those words in Ex 3?

1. John 6:46 precludes the possibility that it's the Father appearing to anyone except Christ but
2. John 14:9 allows the Father to be seen when one sees Jesus, the Preincarnate Jesus in the case of Ex 3.

Conclusion: Jesus is the "I Am" OT God mentioned in Ex 3.

or said he is the I AM the same way God did.

Only if you ripped out John 8:58 and Ex 3:14 verses.

If someone is God, they need to be identified as God.

Jesus did so in John 8:58.

What the Bible calls Jesus and God doesn't match.

Only if you ripped out John 8:58 and Ex 3:14.

Your Unitarian heresy is so embarrassing fragile, that it disintegrates with Ex 3 and the 3 Book of John verses.

 

[Runningman]

Who appeared and spoke those words in Ex 3?

1. John 6:46 precludes the possibility that it's the Father appearing to anyone except Christ but
2. John 14:9 allows the Father to be seen when one sees Jesus, the Preincarnate Jesus in the case of Ex 3.

Conclusion: Jesus is the "I Am" OT God mentioned in Ex 3.

Only if you ripped out John 8:58 and Ex 3:14 verses.

Jesus did so in John 8:58.

Only if you ripped out John 8:58 and Ex 3:14.

Your Unitarian heresy is so embarrassing fragile, that it disintegrates with Ex 3 and the 3 Book of John verses.

Jesus didn't claim to be the "I am" in the sense you are suggest in John 8:58 and it doesn't match what God said in Exodus 3:14 anyway. Furthermore, more Biblical context reveals that your premise is a contradictory one. Acts 3:13 for example states that Jesus is the God of Abraham's servant. So the matter of Jesus not having God's names and titles stands. There are a lot more than just I AM, YHWH, The God of Abraham, etc.

 

[synergy]

Jesus didn't claim to be the "I am" in the sense you are suggest in John 8:58 and it doesn't match what God said in Exodus 3:14 anyway. Furthermore, more Biblical context reveals that your premise is a contradictory one. Acts 3:13 for example states that Jesus is the God of Abraham's servant. So the matter of Jesus not having God's names and titles stands. There are a lot more than just I AM, YHWH, The God of Abraham, etc.

I do take into consideration Acts 3:13 but Ex 3 describes a Divine Appearance. Do you understand that fact?

So, answer me who appeared and spoke the words in Ex 3?

1. John 6:46 precludes the possibility that it's the Father appearing to anyone except Christ but
2. John 14:9 allows the Father to be seen when one sees Jesus, the Preincarnate Jesus in the case of Ex 3.

Conclusion: Jesus is the "I Am" OT God mentioned in Ex 3.

 

[civic]

Jesus didn't claim to be the "I am" in the sense you are suggest in John 8:58 and it doesn't match what God said in Exodus 3:14 anyway. Furthermore, more Biblical context reveals that your premise is a contradictory one. Acts 3:13 for example states that Jesus is the God of Abraham's servant. So the matter of Jesus not having God's names and titles stands. There are a lot more than just I AM, YHWH, The God of Abraham, etc.

The unitarians demise about their god below.

1-Who's voice did the OT prophets hear that is called YHWH ?

2-Who did the OT prophets/saints see in the OT who was called YHWH ?

John 1:18
No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.

John 5:37
And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form,

John 6:46
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.

Colossians 1:15
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

1 Timothy 1:17
17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

1 Timothy 6:13-16
I charge you 14 to keep this command without spot or blame until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which God will bring about in his own time — God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.

1 John 4:12
12 No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

Colossians 1:15
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

1 Timothy 1:17
Now to the King eternal, immortal, and invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen

1 Timothy 6:15-16
which God will bring about in his own time—God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen

Jesus said the following about God the Father !

John 1:18
No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.

hope this helps !!!

 

[synergy]

The unitarians demise about their god below.

1-Who's voice did the OT prophets hear that is called YHWH ?

2-Who did the OT prophets/saints see in the OT who was called YHWH ?

John 1:18
No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.

John 5:37
And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form,

John 6:46
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.

Colossians 1:15
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

1 Timothy 1:17
17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

1 Timothy 6:13-16
I charge you 14 to keep this command without spot or blame until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which God will bring about in his own time — God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.

1 John 4:12
12 No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

Colossians 1:15
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

1 Timothy 1:17
Now to the King eternal, immortal, and invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen

1 Timothy 6:15-16
which God will bring about in his own time—God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen

Jesus said the following about God the Father !

John 1:18
No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.

hope this helps !!!

That blows away all Cults and Heresies that claim that they directly see the Father. That's Unitarians, Judaizers, Mormons, the Baha'i (I think), that I can immediately think of.

 

[civic]

That blows away all Cults and Heresies that claim that they directly see the Father. That's Unitarians, Judaizers, Mormons, the Baha'i (I think), that I can immediately think of.

It puts them in a catch 22 no matter which way they try and answer it

The Trinitarians have the only biblical answer to the questions

 

[Runningman]

I do take into consideration Acts 3:13 but Ex 3 describes a Divine Appearance. Do you understand that fact?

So, answer me who appeared and spoke the words in Ex 3?

1. John 6:46 precludes the possibility that it's the Father appearing to anyone except Christ but
2. John 14:9 allows the Father to be seen when one sees Jesus, the Preincarnate Jesus in the case of Ex 3.

Conclusion: Jesus is the "I Am" OT God mentioned in Ex 3.

Conclusion is Exodus 3:14-15 isn't Jesus speaking. John 14:9 is about knowing the Father, not Jesus being the Father if that is what you're suggesting, which is not an orthodox Trinitarian belief. This is evident from the context where Jesus stated, "From now on" meaning, from that point going forward, they "know Him and have seen Him" in John 14:7. Therefore, when Jesus said "I have been with you all this time, and still you do not know Me? Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father." It wasn't referring to actually seeing the Father in the visual sense, but in the figurative knowing and understanding. That's the common denominator here.

John 6:46 is the same idea as above. Jesus understands the Father.

None of this suggests Jesus pre-existed in the way you suggest.

 

[civic]

That blows away all Cults and Heresies that claim that they directly see the Father. That's Unitarians, Judaizers, Mormons, the Baha'i (I think), that I can immediately think of.

Back 15-20 years ago we had some really astute uni’s on bad carma back in the day and this one always got them and you could just see them squirm over trying to avoid answering it lol. But as they knew their dilemma they stuck to their doctrine over truth in the same way calvies do with their doctrines.

 

[Runningman]

The unitarians demise about their god below.

1-Who's voice did the OT prophets hear that is called YHWH ?

2-Who did the OT prophets/saints see in the OT who was called YHWH ?

John 1:18
No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.

John 5:37
And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form,

John 6:46
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.

Colossians 1:15
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

1 Timothy 1:17
17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

1 Timothy 6:13-16
I charge you 14 to keep this command without spot or blame until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which God will bring about in his own time — God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.

1 John 4:12
12 No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

Colossians 1:15
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

1 Timothy 1:17
Now to the King eternal, immortal, and invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen

1 Timothy 6:15-16
which God will bring about in his own time—God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen

Jesus said the following about God the Father !

John 1:18
No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.

hope this helps !!!

I hate to burst your bubble the way I did @synergy 's, but Scripture states otherwise.

John 14
7If you had known Me, you would know My Father as well. From now on you do know Him and have seen Him.”

Seeing, versus being blind, is used in the figurative sense to denote knowing/understand and not knowing.

Jesus plainly said they had also seen the Father. God is Himself invisible, whereas Jesus is not invisible.

 

[Runningman]

Back 15-20 years ago we had some really astute uni’s on bad carma back in the day and this one always got them and you could just see them squirm over trying to avoid answering it lol. But as they knew their dilemma they stuck to their doctrine over truth in the same way calvies do with their doctrines.

I thought it was super easy. I was expecting something challenging at the beginning with the way you introduced it as being a Unitarian's demise. I see your premise has been soundly challenged using Scripture. I kept my comment short to draw this out longer. I have more to say when/if you respond.

 

[civic]

I hate to burst your bubble the way I did @synergy 's, but Scripture states otherwise.

John 14

nope every verse I posted proves unitarians are wrong.

no man has seen or heard the Father.

so who did the OT saints see and hear

who walked with Adam in the garden and talked with him ?

down goes the unitarians doctrine about God down the drain.

its time for you to make an emergency call to Roto Rooter.

your theological drain pipes are filled with crud, muck, sewage, false doctrines etc........

 

[Runningman]

nope every verse I posted proves unitarians are wrong.

no man has seen or heard the Father.

so who did the OT saints see and hear

who walked with Adam in the garden and talked with him ?

down goes the unitarians doctrine about God down the drain.

its time for you to make an emergency call to Roto Rooter.

your theological drain pipes are filled with crud, muck, sewage, false doctrines etc........

Read the rest of my comment. Since Jesus is not the only one who has seen the Father, then this is not referring to visually looking at God. God is Himself invisible which contradicts the idea that God can be visually looked at. Yet, John 14:7 says the disciples plainly have seen the Father. The context in John 14:7 is about knowing the Father by knowing Jesus, his Son. You can know the Father by knowing Jesus.

Even though your John 1:18 version is extremely dogmatic and contains a contradiction, we will ignore that for now and focus on the fact that it states that Jesus has made Him known or revealed him. In other words, Jesus revealed who the Father is.

Furthermore, the verses you provided prove that Jesus isn't God. Colossians 1:15 says Jesus is the "image" of the invisible God and 1 Timothy 1:17 says the only God is invisible. You provided the verses that say such.

Since that's the case and you use that as a premise for why Jesus is God, then it's refuted by the fact that we Christians will be conformed to the image of His Son and yet we are not God and neither were the disciples for seeing the Father.

Romans 8
29For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers.

 

[civic]

Read the rest of my comment. Since Jesus is not the only one who has seen the Father, then this is not referring to visually looking at God. God is Himself invisible which contradicts the idea that God can be visually looked at. Yet, John 14:7 says the disciples plainly have seen the Father. The context in John 14:7 is about knowing the Father by knowing Jesus, his Son. You can know the Father by knowing Jesus.

Even though your John 1:18 version is extremely dogmatic and contains a contradiction, we will ignore that for now and focus on the fact that it states that Jesus has made Him known or revealed him. In other words, Jesus revealed who the Father is.

Furthermore, the verses you provided prove that Jesus isn't God. Colossians 1:15 says Jesus is the "image" of the invisible God and 1 Timothy 1:17 says the only God is invisible. You provided the verses that say such.

Since that's the case and you use that as a premise for why Jesus is God, then it's refuted by the fact that we Christians will be conformed to the image of His Son and yet we are not God and neither were the disciples for seeing the Father.

Romans 8
29For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers.

You are avoiding the issue- The OT in many places states the prophets and Adam spoke with God and saw Him and He was identified as YHWH.

Jesus says no one has seen the Father except Himself.

You are in a giant pickle with your doctrine. Only the Trins have the biblical answer and solution to your dilemma.

hope the helps !!!

 

[civic]

@synergy I've been at it so long now with the calvies I forgot how much fun it is to debate the uni's. I miss it.

for over 2 decades online I spent 80 % of my time defending the trinity and deity of Christ and the last few its been 80% of the time with calvinists. its time to go back the way it use to be since there are bigger fish to fry.

 

[Runningman]

You are avoiding the issue- The OT in many places states the prophets and Adam spoke with God and saw Him and He was identified as YHWH.

Jesus says no one has seen the Father except Himself.

You are in a giant pickle with your doctrine. Only the Trins have the biblical answer and solution to your dilemma.

hope the helps !!!

It seems the strategy on this board is to avoid the issue by saying others are avoiding the issue, even when they go after it head on. I believe every board develops their own culture in a sense, but this board should try to move away from overusing such gaslighting techniques. People eventually become blind and numb to the charge and ignore it.

I am in no pickle. Jesus said they had seen the Father in John 14:7 so the way the disciples have seen the Father is the same way Jesus has seen the Father, by understanding the Father. Yes or no?

John 14
7If you had known Me, you would know My Father as well. From now on you do know Him and have seen Him.”

 

[civic]

It seems the strategy on this board is to avoid the issue by saying others are avoiding the issue, even when they go after it head on. I believe every board develops their own culture in a sense, but this board should try to move away from overusing such gaslighting techniques. People eventually become blind and numb to the charge and ignore it.

I am in no pickle. Jesus said they had seen the Father in John 14:7 so the way the disciples have seen the Father is the same way Jesus has seen the Father, by understanding the Father. Yes or no?

John 14
7If you had known Me, you would know My Father as well. From now on you do know Him and have seen Him.”

nope Jesus meant to see Him is to see God because He is God, but not the Father.

now you went from being a uni to a modalist.

next fallacious argument.