civic
Well-known member
projecting again since many passages about Jesus being worshipped have been provided but you remain over your head deep in the waters of De Nile.
The Bible does not teach to pray to Jesus
- Thread starter Runningman
- Start date
Runningman
Well-known member
It's a bad argument. No one seems to agree with you except some randoms on this forum. I understand why you want Jesus to be prayed to and so you're arguing in favor of that, but there is something bigger here than your beliefs and your arguments. The scripture doesn't support your idea. There isn't a teaching for your point nor will you be allowed to disrespect the Bible by forcing ideas into it that aren't there.
civic
Well-known member
From the beginning of Jesus’ life, we see examples of Him being worshiped. As soon as the Magi laid eyes on the infant Christ, “they bowed down and worshiped Him” (Matthew 2:11). The Bible records the initial response Jesus received when He made His triumphal entry into Jerusalem: “So they took branches of palm trees and went out to meet him, crying out, ‘Hosanna! Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord, even the King of Israel!’” (Matthew 21:9; John 12:13) The word hosanna is a plea for salvation and an expression of adoration. This word used by the crowd is definitely a form of worship.
Just after Jesus amazed the disciples by walking on water, “those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, ‘Truly you are the Son of God’” (Matthew 14:33). Two more memorable examples of Jesus accepting worship occurred just after His resurrection. Some of the women (Matthew 28:8-9; Mark 16:1; Luke 24:10) were on their way to tell the disciples of the resurrection when Jesus met them on their way. When they realized it was He, they “came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him” (Matthew 28:9).
Then there is the case of Thomas, who didn’t believe Jesus had risen from the dead despite the other disciples’ testifying to that fact. It had been about a week since the resurrection, and Thomas still doubted it. Jesus, knowing Thomas doubted, appeared to him and showed him the nail marks in His hands and feet and the wound in His side. How did Thomas respond? “Thomas said to him, ‘My Lord and my God!’” (John 20:28). In none of these instances do we see Jesus telling those worshiping Him to stop, as did mere men and even angels who were being worshiped wrongly by others (Acts 10:25–26; Revelation 19:9–10).
We continue to offer worship to Jesus today by offering ourselves to Him as a living sacrifice—offering ourselves to God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to do with as He sees fit (Romans 12:1–2). Jesus said, “God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth” (John 4:24). We worship God in spirit and truth by obedience to His commands. Worship is not solely about bowing to Jesus, throwing palm branches at His feet, or singing and shouting about our love for Him. Worship is about knowing Him, communing with Him, serving Him, and trusting in Him.got?
Conclusion: Just one passage showing Jesus was worshipped is adequate and proof -evidence. But as we read there are many many passages where we read Jesus is worshipped. He right now is being worshipped in heaven on the throne - Revelation 5:11-14
hope this helps !!!
For those who embrace heresy and are thus forced to play make believe with what the words of the Bible mean.
I love that the word pelach is found in the Bible.
You should too.
Runningman
Well-known member
What you're describing in every instance is physically bowing down to Jesus, not worship. Jesus is never given spirit and truth worship in Scripture because he isn't seeking it and no one was commanded to give it to him.
The true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truth and has nothing to do with physically bowing down to God. Therefore Jesus is never worshipped as God, but rather as a human king.
John 4
23But a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for the Father is seeking such as these to worship Him. 24God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship Him in spirit and in truth.”
hope this helps !!!
civic
Well-known member
deflecting again.
Runningman
Well-known member
There is only one teaching about worship in the New Testament and it's a commandment to worship the Father. That's it. John 4:23-24.
civic
Well-known member
nope that's just one verse isolated.
its not the only teaching and all it says is that those who worship must be in spirit and truth.
the truth is many worshipped Jesus in scripture. and He ACCEPTED their WORSHIP of HIM.
Runningman
Well-known member
Only the true worshippers worship the Father. If you're worshipping Jesus as God then it's false worship.
civic
Well-known member
You are in denial .
Only God deserves to receive spiritual worship from men.
The New Testament word for worship (proskuneo) means to do obeisance, reverence, or acts of homage (see Thayer, Vine, and Arndt & Gingrich). This word is often used to describe men worshiping God: John 4:20-24; Revelation 4:10; 7:11; 11:16; 14:7; 19:4; 15:4; 1 Corinthians 14:25.
Many verses forbid worshiping men, angels, or any created thing.
Acts 10:25,26 - Cornelius fell down to worship Peter. Peter forbade it saying that he himself was just a man. God deserves worship, but men do not. (Cf. Acts 12:20-23; 14:8-18.)
Revelation 22:8,9; 19:10 - John sought to worship the angel, but the angel forbade it because he was a "fellow servant." "Worship God."
Romans 1:25 - People who worship and serve created things, rather than the Creator, have left the truth of God.
To worship any created thing - whether man, angel, heavenly body, or some other object in nature (mountain, ocean, etc.) - constitutes idolatry.
Only the true God deserves to be worshipped.
Matthew 4:9,10 - Worship the Lord your God and serve Him only.
Revelation 9:20 - Idolatry is forbidden because it constitutes worship of someone other than God (Exodus 20:3-6; Deuteronomy 6:13-15; Revelation 14:9-11). [See also Exodus 34:14]
Note: proskunew is forbidden when used for obeisance to men from a spiritual or religious motivation or purpose. The word is sometimes (but rarely) used in the New Testament non-religiously to refer to bowing in obeisance to a king, master, or other person in authority (see Matthew 18:26 - this usage is more common in the Old Testament).
When used for religious honor, however, worship is forbidden toward any except God. In this sense, "worship" is like "lord," "father," "master," etc. The words may be acceptably used for earthly, physical relationships (Ephesians 6:1-9; Colossians 3:21,22), but we are forbidden to use such as religious honor to men or created things (Matthew 23:8-12). [On Revelation 3:9, cf. to 1 Corinthians 14:25]
The concept of Deity distinguishes the Creator from the creature. Things which are created do not have the unique characteristics of God, do not do the unique works of God, and therefore should not be addressed by the unique names of God nor should they be worshipped.
But Jesus received the unique worship God deserves.
He was often worshipped while He appeared on earth before His resurrection.
1- Matthew 8:2 - A leper came and worshipped Jesus. [9:18; 15:25; Mark 5:6]
2- Matthew 14:33 - After Jesus had calmed the storm, the disciples worshipped Him saying He was the Son of God.
3- John 9:38 - After Jesus had healed the blind man, He revealed Himself to be the Son of God (v35). The man said he believed, and he worshipped Jesus.
Note that such religious worship would have been blasphemy and should have been forbidden as it was in the case of Peter, the angel, etc., if Jesus had been just a man on earth.
Created beings also worship Him after His resurrection.
1- Matthew 28:9,17 - After His resurrection, His disciples worshipped Him. [Cf. John 20:28,29]
2- Luke 24:52 - Even after He had ascended back to heaven, they worshipped Him.
3- Hebrews 1:6 - Angels are instructed by God to worship Jesus.
Note that men were rebuked for worshipping men, angels, or created beings, but they were never rebuked for worshipping Jesus. Angels are even instructed by the Father to worship Jesus. The context of the above passages cannot fit the idea of obeisance to an earthly king or ruler. They refer to honoring Jesus as a religious authority - the very thing forbidden when offered to Peter, angels, etc.
Hence, Jesus accepted worship as an act of religious honor. The Scriptures, including Jesus' own teachings, would absolutely forbid this unless He possesses true Deity.
B. Glory and Honor
"Glory" (doxa) means "...praise, honor ... magnificence, excellence, preeminence, dignity, grace ... majesty" - Grimm-Wilke-Thayer.
"Honor" (timh) means "...honor which belongs or is shown to one; the honor of one who outranks others, pre-eminence ... veneration ... deference, reverence..." - Grimm-Wilke-Thayer.
Like the words "power" and "wisdom," both these words can properly be used to refer to men in the physical realm (Matthew 6:29; 1 Peter 1:24). But they are also used to describe a special degree of glory which no one but God can possess.
God receives a special, unique glory and honor.
Psalm 24:7-10 - Jehovah is the "King of glory."
Psalm 29:3 - He is the "God of glory." [Acts 7:2; cf. Isaiah 60:19; Galatians 1:5; etc.]
Revelation 4:9-11 - God deserves this glory because He created all things. Note again the distinction between the creature and the Creator. [Revelation 5:13; Romans 11:36]
Isaiah 42:8; 48:11 - This glory is unique to God in that He refuses to share it with anyone else. Idols and created things have no right to receive this glory.
It follows that it would be blasphemy for anyone but God to receive this unique kind of glory. If anyone does receive this glory with God's approval, then that one must possess Deity.
But Jesus receives the unique glory of God.
John 5:23 - All men should honor the Son "just as" they honor the Father. To fail to give this honor to the Son is to fail to properly honor the Father.
"Just as" (kathos) is translated "even as" in KJV, ASV, NASB, RSV (cf. Thayer and Arndt & Gingrich). Other examples of its use in comparisons is found in Luke 6:31; 11:30; 17:26; John 3:14; 2 Corinthians 10:7; Colossians 3:13; etc.
The significance of the word, when used in comparisons, is that one item or action is just like the other regarding the aspect in which they are being compared. Hence Jesus rightly receives honor just like the honor the Father receives. And if we refuse to give such honor to the Son, then we are refusing to honor the Father!
John 17:5 - Jesus prayed to the Father to "glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was" (NKJV, cf. NASB, NEB; others are similar - ASV, KJV). Jesus asks to be glorified together with the Father with the glory He possessed "with" (para) the Father from eternity.
The clear implication is that Jesus and the Father both possessed the same glory before the world began. Jesus, in coming to earth as a servant, did not then appear to possess that glory but appeared as a man (this is part of what he gave up on coming to earth - Philippians 2:6-8). But having nearly completed His work on earth (John 17:4) and being ready to ascend to the Father, Jesus anticipated receiving this glory again (Philippians 2:9-11).
However, we have already learned that no one but God can receive the glory God has (Isaiah 42:8; 48:11). Jesus did receive that glory with the approval of the Father. Therefore, Jesus possesses Deity.
Revelation 5:12-14 - Both the Father and the Lamb (Jesus) were praised by the created things, who attributed to them "blessing and honor and glory and power." Note that the same glory and honor belongs to both Father and Son.
Hebrews 1:3 - Jesus is the brightness of the Father's glory (or the effulgence or radiance of His glory). That glory which shines from the Father also shines from Jesus because He is the creator (v2), upholds all things (v3), and is the express image of God (v3).
1 Corinthians 2:8; James 2:1 - Jesus is called the "Lord of glory," just as God in the Old Testament is called the "King of glory" (Psalm 24:7-10).
Note that the glory Jesus possesses is not just the glory possessed by men or angels. His glory is above that of angels (Hebrews 1:6,13). He is above all principality, power, might, dominion, and every name that is named (Ephesians 1:21; Philippians 2:9-11). No created being possesses the glory and honor Jesus does.
We have seen, however, that Jesus deserves the glory, honor, and worship of Deity even as the Father does. God forbids this to be given to any but Deity, but Jesus does receive it. This would be blasphemy if Jesus were not God.
Conclusion
If Jesus is not Deity, then who is He? To understand God we must realize that God is not part of the created things. God is the Creator, separate and far above the creatures. This distinction is made again and again in the passages we have studied. Jesus must be classed on one side or the other. Either he is a created being or else He is Deity. To say He is not Deity is to say He is a created being. To say He is not a created being is to say He is Deity. There are no other alternatives.
Men are creatures; angels are creatures that are above men. But Jesus is above the angels and is not classed with them (Hebrews chap. 1 - see especially vv 5,6,13). We have seen that He is not an angel nor an exalted man, but the Bible attributes to Him that which can only be said of God. We have learned that:
* Jesus is expressly stated to be God or to possess Deity.
* Jesus is called by names that may only be used for God.
* Jesus possesses characteristics that only God can possess.
* Jesus does work that only God can do.
* Jesus deserves worship and honor that only God deserves.
In all these areas Jesus is described as the Creator, not a created being. He is eternal, has the power, and did the work of creation. He deserves honor as the Creator. Clearly He is not to be classed with the created things but with Deity.
But we have also proved that there is only one true God who made the universe. If Jesus is "god," He is not an idol nor a false god. Since He possesses Deity and there is only one true God, then He must possess true Deity, not some lesser form of deity. He must be included in the one true God or Godhead along with the Father and the Holy Spirit.
Finally, if Jesus is God then He always has been God and always will be God, since God's unique nature cannot change (Hebrews 13:8). God cannot cease to be God nor can God lose the characteristics of God. He can take on non-Divine characteristics as Jesus added the characteristics of a man when He came to earth, and He can limit the use of His powers in order to accomplish His Divine purposes as Jesus did on earth. But He cannot cease to be God and He cannot lose the power and characteristics of God.
Jesus possesses Deity.
hope this helps !!!
The Septuagint uses the word δουλευσουσιν in Dan 7:13,26.
Daniel 7
13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him (δουλευσουσιν). His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.
26 “‘But the court will sit, and his power will be taken away and completely destroyed forever. 27 Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven will be handed over to the holy people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship (δουλευσουσιν) and obey him.’
It's the exact same word in Ezekiel 20:40 where all of Israel is to worship the Sovereign Lord. Are you saying that δουλευσουσιν does not necessarily mean to worship the Sovereign Lord in Ez 20:40?
Eze 20:40 For on my holy mountain, the high mountain of Israel, declares the Sovereign Lord, there in the land all the people of Israel will serve me (δουλευσουσιν), and there I will accept them. There I will require your offerings and your choice gifts, along with all your holy sacrifices.
These verses, along with the entire Bible, destroy your Judaizing Unitarianism once again.
civic
Well-known member
Curious minds want to know.
Runningman
Well-known member
This was already debunked in a previous post.
The one among the people the dominion was given is the son of man, not the Ancient of Days.
Daniel 7
13“I saw in the night visions,
and behold, with the clouds of heaven
there came one like a son of man,
and he came to the Ancient of Days
and was presented before him.
14And to him was given dominion
and glory and a kingdom,
that all peoples, nations, and languages
should serve him;
his dominion is an everlasting dominion,
which shall not pass away,
and his kingdom one
that shall not be destroyed.
Now skip to the end of the chapter... the one they are serving is not God. They are serving the son of man.
Daniel 7
27And the kingdom and the dominion
and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven
shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High;
his kingdom shall be an everlasting kingdom,
and all dominions shall serve and obey him.’
A few important points here. Firstly, the son of man is never worshipped or prayed to as God in the context. Jesus and God are within vicinity of each other and clearly distinct one from the other. Two, this proves that the son of man (Jesus) is one from among the people, not God. Three, most translations and commentators affirm these points.
Conclusion, Jesus is not God nor does servitude translate to worship/prayer when in the direct context the one being served is a human.
Runningman
Well-known member
That is the argument you have made. I know that much, but people don't pray to humans. In regards to humans, pelach doesn't refer to worship. I don't know how you can sit there and say Jesus is God when Jesus the man is approaching God in Daniel 7. Trinitarian theologians of standing are held accountable for intellectual dishonesty which is why yours is a minority opinion among scholars. Your points do not match what is actually happening in Scripture.
Runningman
Well-known member
I have made a counter argument. Yes let's keep Daniel 7:14 and show everyone. The context shows Jesus isn't God but rather the son of man with God.
civic
Well-known member
That’s a presumption that God is not Plural. It’s a fallacious argument since God declares He is Plural in Persons.I have made a counter argument. Yes let's keep Daniel 7:14 and show everyone. The context shows Jesus isn't God but rather the son of man with God.
