The Bible does not teach to pray to Jesus

[Pancho Frijoles]

Yes.





False.



Ok, but it isn't correct.

Please explain how worshiping a God who is not a person is still worshipping a Personal God.

2 Thessalonians 2:16-17
Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace,
comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word.


Can you imagine a strict monotheist who did not believe Jesus is God puts Jesus before the Father in this prayer?

In 2 Thes 2:16-17 Paul puts Our Father ABOVE Jesus. That is why Paul gives the Title “GOD” to Our Father, and not to Jesus.
Surprised? You shouldn’t be, as Paul does this over and over and over and over and over and over and over throughout his epistles.
In conclusion:
1. Paul, a Jew, is a strict monotheist because He called “God” only one Person: namely, Our Father.
2. Your interpretation has been refuted.

 

[Fred]

Please explain how worshiping a God who is not a person is still worshipping a Personal God.

Because all three Persons are being worshiped.

In 2 Thes 2:16-17 Paul puts the Father ABOVE Jesus. That is why Paul gives the Title “GOD” to the Father, and not to Jesus.

Jesus is mentioned first in the prayer.
You dodged this fact. Why?

Surprised?

No, because "Lord" when applied to Jesus means YHWH.

You shouldn’t be,

I'm not.

Paul prayed to the Lord Jesus several times.
And since only God is the proper recipient of prayer proves Jesus is God.

Your interpretation has been refuted.

Not one bit.

 

[Runningman]

See the end of post 548.

See scripture. It’s referring to a human among the people ruling. It’s not God. Doesn’t refer to worship or prayer, but servitude of a human. Well well well. Looks like we have poked a hole in your theory about Daniel 7:13,14 definitely saying Jesus necessarily is owed prayer or worship.

Daniel 7
26But the court will convene, and his dominion will be taken away and completely destroyed forever. 27Then the sovereignty, dominion, and greatness of the kingdoms under all of heaven will be given to the people, the saints of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will serve and obey Him.’


Final word on this… this also proves Jesus is one of the people and not the Most High. So glad we talked about this because I didn’t notice this before. This verse destroys the Trinity.

 

[TomL]

So, if I am understanding you correctly, God is a class. A category, more or less in the same way that “human” is a class or category.
There are millions of individuals who fit in the class or category “human” and there are three persons who fit in the class or category “God”.
Is that a correct appreciation of your view?

When Paul says that God is the head of Christ, does he mean that the class or category “God” rules over Christ, or that the Person “God” rules over Christ?

Dear readers:

Women are not men. That is why Paul can say that men rule over women.
Christ is not God. That is why Paul can say that God rules over Christ.

Yes

God (Ton Theon ) can serve as a proper noun (name) or (theon) function adjectivally denoting a class of being

Generally when the noun Theon appears with the article (ton) God the father is meant without the article depending on context it may either refer to the father or denote a class of being

Beyond that you beg the question

A man can rule over his wife as they voluntarily enter into a relationship called marriage. Her class of being does not change because of that relationship however

Further believers are to submit to one another. That also does not serve to alter their class of being

Parent have authority over their children that does not prove children are of a lesser class of being

Your argument is bogus

 

[TomL]

Amen

Its a bogus argument as

believers are to submit to one another

 

[synergy]

See scripture. It’s referring to a human among the people ruling. It’s not God. Doesn’t refer to worship or prayer, but servitude of a human. Well well well. Looks like we have poked a hole in your theory about Daniel 7:13,14 definitely saying Jesus necessarily is owed prayer or worship.

Daniel 7
26But the court will convene, and his dominion will be taken away and completely destroyed forever. 27Then the sovereignty, dominion, and greatness of the kingdoms under all of heaven will be given to the people, the saints of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will serve and obey Him.’


Final word on this… this also proves Jesus is one of the people and not the Most High. So glad we talked about this because I didn’t notice this before. This verse destroys the Trinity.

Son of Man is worshipped in his endless dominion:

Daniel 7
13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

Judgment Day where the Most High will continue to be worshiped by those who are appointed by him to rule:

26 “‘But the court will sit, and his power will be taken away and completely destroyed forever. 27 Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven will be handed over to the holy people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.’

These verses, along with the entire Bible, destroy your Judaizing Unitarianism once again

 

[Fred]

See scripture.

Which is at the end of post 548.

"the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will serve and obey Him."

It doesn't refer to a mere human. The pronouns above refute your false teaching as to whom they refer to.

 

[civic]

Which is at the end of post 548.

"the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will serve and obey Him."

It doesn't refer to a mere human. The pronouns above refute your false teaching as to whom they refer to.

Yes the Most High always refers to God.

Talk about De Nile.

 

[Runningman]

Son of Man is worshipped in his endless dominion:

Daniel 7
13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

Judgment Day where the Most High will continue to be worshiped by those who are appointed by him to rule:

26 “‘But the court will sit, and his power will be taken away and completely destroyed forever. 27 Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven will be handed over to the holy people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.’

These verses, along with the entire Bible, destroy your Judaizing Unitarianism once again

Which is at the end of post 548.

"the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will serve and obey Him."

It doesn't refer to a mere human. The pronouns above refute your false teaching as to whom they refer to.

Who has sovereignty in the below passage? God or the people? If you answered the people then you're correct. Then it isn't God's kingdom, it's the kingdom of the people and therefore the one ruling over it isn't the Most High, but rather one from among the people. Yes, this absolutely proves that Jesus is not God 100%.

Daniel 7
26But the court will convene, and his dominion will be taken away and completely destroyed forever. 27Then the sovereignty, dominion, and greatness of the kingdoms under all of heaven will be given to the people, the saints of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will serve and obey Him.’

 

[civic]

Who has sovereignty in the below passage? God or the people? If you answered the people then you're correct. Then it isn't God's kingdom, it's the kingdom of the people and therefore the one ruling over it isn't the Most High, but rather one from among the people. Yes, this absolutely proves that Jesus is not God 100%.

Daniel 7
26But the court will convene, and his dominion will be taken away and completely destroyed forever. 27Then the sovereignty, dominion, and greatness of the kingdoms under all of heaven will be given to the people, the saints of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will serve and obey Him.’

deflection since we are identifying who is the Most High in the passage

 

[Fred]

Who has sovereignty in the below passage? God or the people?

Irrelevant because 'pelach' is not being rendered unto them.

"the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will serve and obey Him."

 

[civic]

Son of Man is worshipped in his endless dominion:

Daniel 7
13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

Judgment Day where the Most High will continue to be worshiped by those who are appointed by him to rule:

26 “‘But the court will sit, and his power will be taken away and completely destroyed forever. 27 Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven will be handed over to the holy people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.’

These verses, along with the entire Bible, destroy your Judaizing Unitarianism once again

The uni's are in De Nile.

 

[Runningman]

deflection since we are identifying who is the Most High in the passage

Pronouns don't necessarily refer back to the closest noun in the Bible. While in English that is a common way to understand Grammar, there are examples of where the pronoun doesn't refer to the closest noun or person. So you should read the context. I already pointed out to you that Daniel plainly said the sovereignty and dominion is given to the people, the saints of the Most High. Therefore the one the people are serving and obeying isn't God. Why do you doubt? It's right there in the passage.

 

[Fred]

The uni's are in De Nile.

How usual for them to employ this tactic.

 

[Runningman]

Irrelevant because 'pelach' is not being rendered unto them.

"the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will serve and obey Him."

Which means they aren't serving and obeying the Most High because He isn't sovereign in the context. Read it again. They are serving a human. This debunks your bad "Jesus receives prayer and worship" argument.

 

[Fred]

Pronouns don't necessarily refer back to the closest noun in the Bible. While in English that is a common way to understand Grammar, there are examples of where the pronoun doesn't refer to the closest noun or person. So you should read the context. I already pointed out to you that Daniel plainly said the sovereignty and dominion is given to the people, the saints of the Most High. Therefore the one the people are serving and obeying isn't God. Why do you doubt? It's right there in the passage.

The Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew-English Lexicon on Daniel 7:14 and Daniel 7:27: “pay reverence to deity”
http://biblehub.com/hebrew/6399.htm

Here's one you should enjoy:
Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon: Citing Daniel 7:14 and Daniel 7:27 it reads, "to worship God."
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H6399&t=NASB

 

[Fred]

Which means they aren't serving and obeying the Most High

"Serve" is used in reference to Him. (post 576)

 

[Runningman]

The Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew-English Lexicon on Daniel 7:14 and Daniel 7:27: “pay reverence to deity”
http://biblehub.com/hebrew/6399.htm

Daniel said the people are sovereign. Your argument seems to be tending toward Daniel was wrong. I am not going to bow to your lies, ever. So you don't believe Daniel 7 anymore. I bet you will think twice before running your mouth about Daniel 7:13-14 again.

 

[Fred]

Daniel said the people are sovereign.

But said that God is receiving "pelach" in both Daniel 7:14 and Daniel 7:27.

Game.
Set.
Match.

 

[Runningman]

"Serve" is used in reference to Him. (post 576)

Scripture is still there. It says the sovereignty and dominion is given to the people, the saints of the Most High. Therefore God isn't calling the shots, but rather a kingly ruler. This proves he with the "everlasting kingdom" isn't God. It refers to a human in the context. I have a feeling we'll be here for a while.