The Bible does not teach to pray to Jesus

civic said:
More nonsense He said He would raise His body from the dead.

You are blinded from the truth about Jesus just like your ancestors the religious Pharisees
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What's nonsense is you think a dead person was still around to resurrect himself. That will the fact that the Bible never teaches Jesus resurrected himself, you have no examples of Jesus resurrecting himself in Scripture.
 
Runningman said:
Nope I am not. You're wrong.
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You said God gave the words for Jesus to speak in John 2:19. If Jesus did not raise himself, then your option is that Jesus lied when saying this.
In John 2:19, he said he will raise the temple which is his body. Did he raise himself from death? You either agree or you call Jesus a liar. Simple logic for most of us.
 
mikesw said:
You lost track of the text of the verse. I will share it again.
In John 2:19, he said he will raise the temple which is his body. Did he raise himself from death? You either agree or you call Jesus a liar. Simple logic for most of us.
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No he didn't raise himself from the dead. You lost track again. Did you forget John 2:22 still exists and speaks of Jesus as being resurrected, not resurrecting himself? Are you calling John a liar? He said Jesus didn't resurrect himself. Remember that passive voice in John 2:22 we talked about?
 
Runningman said:
What's nonsense is you think a dead person was still around to resurrect himself. That will the fact that the Bible never teaches Jesus resurrected himself, you have no examples of Jesus resurrecting himself in Scripture.
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Do you not remember that Jesus told the criminal on the cross that he would be with Jesus that day in Paradise?
 
mikesw said:
You said God gave the words for Jesus to speak in John 2:19. If Jesus did not raise himself, then your option is that Jesus lied when saying this.
In John 2:19, he said he will raise the temple which is his body. Did he raise himself from death? You either agree or you call Jesus a liar. Simple logic for most of us.
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Nonsense. You're getting desperate. There is no disharmony with Jesus not resurrecting himself and speaking what God told him to say. There disharmony with Scripture is your insistence that Jesus resurrected himself without any Scripture to back it up. Your version implies John is a liar.
 
Runningman said:
Nonsense. You're getting desperate. There is no disharmony with Jesus not resurrecting himself and speaking what God told him to say. There disharmony with Scripture is your insistence that Jesus resurrected himself without any Scripture to back it up. Your version implies John is a liar.
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Really? How would you suggest that the logic options of the verse could make John a liar? You already said God gave lying words to Jesus. What next?
 
mikesw said:
Do you not remember that Jesus told the criminal on the cross that he would be with Jesus that day in Paradise?
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Depends where you put the comma. Some Bibles place the comma after "today" which would mean that Jesus said that "today" not that that day he would be with him in paradise. Jesus didn't go to paradise after he died. He was dead for three days until God resurrected him. Did you know that or are you intentionally trying to misrepresent the biblical narrative.

Luke 23
43Jesus said to him, Truly I say to you today, you will be with me in Paradise.
 
mikesw said:
Really? How would you suggest that the logic options of the verse could make John a liar? You already said God gave lying words to Jesus. What next?
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I am saying your logic implies John is a liar. John nor Jesus are a liar if you just understand what they said. Again, John 2:22 proves Jesus did not resurrect himself so John 2:19 isn't about Jesus claiming he would resurrect himself. It's a prophecy, that's it. Don't nuke it.
 
civic said:
Nope it’s the Son

Jesus is eternal life, He is life. We see this over and over again in the Apostle Johns writings. In Him was LIFE and that LIFE was the light of man. Life of the world, the Bread of LIFE,My words are spirit and they are LIFE, I AM the way,the truth and the LIFE,The LIFE was manifested and we proclaim to you the ETERNAL Life which was with the Father, and was manifested to us- The Prologue of 1st John. So we see that when John uses the phrase True God and Eternal Life together in 1 John 5:20 that He is referring to Christ as the closest antecedent making Him the True God and Eternal Life.

Also we see that when we search the NT that Eternal Life is never used of the Father without the Son but we see that Eternal Life is used over and over with Jesus where the Father is never mentioned. This makes a solid case for Jesus in 1 John 5:20 as the True God and Eternal Life.

1 John 5:20
20 We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may knowhim who is true. And we are in him who is true — even in his Son Jesus Christ. He(Jesus) is the true God and eternal life.


On behalf of seeing χριστος as the antecedent are the following arguments: (1) Although it is true that αληθινος θεος is not elsewhere referred to Christ, αληθεια is, and is so in Johannine literature (John 14:6).

29 Winer-Moulton, 195.
Further, αληθινος θεος is not a "constant.. epithet" as Winer supposes, being found only in John 17:3 and 1 John 5:20! (2) Christ is also said to be ζωη in John's writings John 11:25; 14:6; 1 John 1:1-2), an epithet nowhere else used of the Father. (3) The demonstrative pronoun, ουτος, in the Gospel and Epistles of John seems to be used in a theologically rich manner.30 Specifically, of the approximately seventy instances in which ουτος has a personal referent, as many as forty- four of them (almost two-thirds of the instances) refer to the Son. Of the remainder, most imply some sort of positive connection with the Son.31 What is most significant is that never is the Father the referent.For what it is worth, this datum increases the probability that ιησου χριστω is the antecedent in 1 John 5:20. 32 The issue cannot be decided on grammar alone. But suffice it to say here that there are no grammatical reasons for denying that αληθινος θεος is descriptive of Jesus Christ.



My top 10 biblical and exegetical reasons Jesus Christ is the True God and Eternal Life.

1st- Jesus is called God in the writings of John(1:1,20:28,1 John 5:20)

2nd- Jesus is called Eternal Life over and over again in Johns writings

3rd- John opens up his epistle with the Eternal life(Jesus) that was with the Father in the beginning and was manifest to the disciples(1 John 1:1-5)

4th- John ends his epistle with Jesus who is eternal life and only is eternal life found in Him who is the true God.

5th- never is eternal life used of the Father alone. When the Father is included the Son is always mentioned together with the Father making them equal. Equality with the Father was not something Jesus needed to grasp at as He already possessed complete Deity as God.(Phil 2, Col 2:9)

6th- John would not leave his readers with any ambiguity warning them to guard themselves from idols(5:21) So this would be clear his reference was to those who reject Jesus as the true God. They are the idoloters and antichrists John writes of in his epistles.

7th- Jesus is also the True God and the True one in 1 John. Jesus is the true light which brings light to all men (John 1:9) Jesus is the truth (John 14:6)Jesus is the true vine (John 15:1). Jesus is the true witness of God (John 18:37) He who is true (Revelation 3:7) Jesus is the faithful and true witness (Revelation 3:14)Jesus is Lord God Almighty, Just and true are your ways(Revelation 15:3) Jesus is faithful and true(Revelation 19:11).

8th- [In John's writings] Of the approximately 70instances in which ουτος has a personal referent, as many as 44 of them (almost 2/3 . . . ) refer to the Son. Of the remainder, most imply some sort of positive connection with the Son.31 What is most significant is that NEVER is the Father the referent.FWIW, this datum increases the probability that ιησου χριστω IS the antecedent in 1 John 5:20. Wallace.

9th- Netbible- Wallace
If This one in 5:20 is understood as referring to Jesus, it forms an inclusion with the prologue, which introduced the reader to "the eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us." Thus it appears best to understand the pronoun This one in 5:20 as a reference to Jesus Christ. The christological affirmation which results is striking, but certainly not beyond the capabilities of the author (see John 1:1 and 20:28): This One [Jesus Christ] is the true God and eternal life.

10th- This/ He (autos)Jesus Christ (the last-named Person) is the true God


Conclusion: So the most logical conclusion is that it refers to Jesus as the true God. Not only is this Wallace's conclusion from Johns usage of outos but He is the closest antecedent (most times in the NT this principal holds true). Eternal Life is never used of the Father alone in John’s writings and only a couple of times does John include the Father with the Son regarding eternal life. John opens up his epistles describing the "eternal life" who was with the Father in the beginning and then ends his epistle with eternal life identifying Jesus as the true God and eternal life. John then says this in the last verse:

1 John 5:21-Guard yourselves from idols- Now why would he leave any ambiguity in verse 20 as to the identity of the true God and eternal life then turn around commanding them to protect themselves from idolatry? It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever unless John is identifying Jesus as the true God and refuting the Gnostics of his day who denied the Incarnation.This is the last of the contrasts of which the Epistle is so full. We have had light and darkness, truth and falsehood, love and hate, God and the world, Christ and Antichrist, life and death, doing righteousness and doing sin, the children of God and the children of the devil, the spirit of truth and the spirit of error, the believer untouched by the evil one and the world lying in the evil one; and now at the close we have what in that age was the ever present and pressing contrast between the true God Jesus Christ and the idols.

hope this helps !!!
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The only God mentioned in 1 John 5:20 would be the God Jesus is the Son of. So that would be the Father. The Father is called the true God repeatedly throughout the New Testament. See John 17:3, John 5:44, 1 Thessalonians 1:9,10.

John 5
43I have come in My Father’s name, and you have not received Me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will receive him. 44How can you believe if you accept glory from one another, yet do not seek the glory that comes from the only God?

1 Thess. 1
9For they themselves report what kind of welcome you gave us, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God 10and to await His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead—Jesus our deliverer from the coming wrath.

1 John 5
20And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
 
Runningman said:
I am saying your logic implies John is a liar. John nor Jesus are a liar if you just understand what they said. Again, John 2:22 proves Jesus did not resurrect himself so John 2:19 isn't about Jesus claiming he would resurrect himself. It's a prophecy, that's it. Don't nuke it.
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You say the prophecy was not fulfilled. Therefore the outcome of your view is that Jesus is a false prophet. why did he say he would raise it? He could have used your favored passive text if he was not raising himself.
 
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Runningman said:
Depends where you put the comma. Some Bibles place the comma after "today" which would mean that Jesus said that "today" not that that day he would be with him in paradise. Jesus didn't go to paradise after he died. He was dead for three days until God resurrected him. Did you know that or are you intentionally trying to misrepresent the biblical narrative.

Luke 23
43Jesus said to him, Truly I say to you today, you will be with me in Paradise.
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That would be unlikely. That does not even make sense. He already is talking to the man on that very same day. Do you have to deny Jesus was in Paradise right after his death on the cross? Is there any scripture intact after you force it to a hyper-literalist unitarian view?
 
mikesw said:
You say the prophecy was not fulfilled. Therefore the outcome of your view is that Jesus is a false prophet. why did he say he would raise it? He could have used your favored passive text if he was not raising himself.
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The prophecy was fulfilled, but not by Jesus. You have the wrong idea of who God is.
 
mikesw said:
That would be unlikely. That does not even make sense. He already is talking to the man on that very same day. Do you have to deny Jesus was in Paradise right after his death on the cross? Is there any scripture intact after you force it to a hyper-literalist unitarian view?
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Funny, you deny everything. After Jesus died, he didn't go to paradise that day. The version I provided you is more theologically accurate.
 

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