Runningman
Well-known member
I never said that nor do I believe that.
The Bible does not teach to pray to Jesus
- Thread starter Runningman
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Runningman
Well-known member
So is it possible Jesus just repeated what God told him to say?
Runningman
Well-known member
Jesus is your idol because you've attempted to turn him into your god and called the whole thing a Trinity. It's not blasphemy because I am not talking about God. I am talking about your beliefs. Jesus is not God in Christianity. See John 17:3.
In John 2:19, he said he will raise the temple which is his body. Did he raise himself from death? You either agree or you call Jesus a liar. Simple logic for most of us.
Your new point would shift the blame to God for causing Jesus to lie. You keep getting worse on this issue.
Dizerner
Well-known member
Aren't you the fella that said God never became man?
Has your position changed over time?
Runningman
Well-known member
Then after that he didn't do it because it was a prophecy. You can't have your cake and eat it too in this case. The only option left is that Jesus spoke of prophecy, not that he literally resurrected himself after he was dead. John 2:19-22 is a strong argument against Jesus being involved in his own resurrection and overall refutes Trinitarianism, especially verse 22, because it is not in agreement with what you claim Jesus meant.
Did you notice you keep getting close, but you never actually have your ace card anywhere in the Bible? It's because Trinitarianism is the wrong idea about God. At some point, it's not a coincidence that the Bible provides refutes against Trinitarianism. It isn't that the Bible needs to be reinterpreted until it bends to your beliefs, but rather it doesn't need changing at all. It's not not a Trinitarian's book. You all have gotten it wrong for many hundreds of years.
what on earth are you talking about? Now you say Jesus is a false prophet.
If the scriptures refutes God's Triune essence, you have yet to make an argument against Christ Jesus in the Trinity.
Runningman
Well-known member
Sorry, this is becoming nonsense. So your premise is now Jesus lied every time he spoke of a prophecy?
the implication of what you said is that Jesus lied and thus is a false prophet. Your other option is that God told Jesus to lie. Which option are you going with?
Runningman
Well-known member
Ah, I see it now. That stubborn little rebellious spirit in you is lashing out because I showed you how John 2:22 refutes your resurrection story. Since you can't refute me, you're now trying to gaslight and falsely accuse me.
Did you read this?
John 12
49For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.
Again. You are implying that God told Jesus to lie. That is not an option in my theology. You did not even make sense with your explanation of John 2:22 which is agnostic in the way Jesus was raised. I am talking about basic grammar here.
Runningman
Well-known member
How is Jesus predicting his resurrection a lie or a false prophecy? Didn't the prediction come true when God resurrected him from the dead like the rest of the Bible says? The Bible never says "The son resurrected himself." It's just that he isn't God.
civic
Well-known member
He is the True God and Eternal Life. 1 Jn 5:20.
I can say with complete confidence and assurance you have a false christ who cannot save you from your sins and be your Redeemer as per Psalm 49:7- No man can possibly redeem his brother or pay his ransom to God.
Runningman
Well-known member
Nope I am not. You're wrong.
civic
Well-known member
Exactly
Runningman
Well-known member
1 John 5:20 is about the Father being the true God and eternal life because the previously mentioned God in the context would be the Father.
civic
Well-known member
More nonsense He said He would raise His body from the dead.
You are blinded from the truth about Jesus just like your ancestors the religious Pharisees
You lost track of the text of the verse. I will share it again.
In John 2:19, he said he will raise the temple which is his body. Did he raise himself from death? You either agree or you call Jesus a liar. Simple logic for most of us.
civic
Well-known member
Nope it’s the Son
Jesus is eternal life, He is life. We see this over and over again in the Apostle Johns writings. In Him was LIFE and that LIFE was the light of man. Life of the world, the Bread of LIFE,My words are spirit and they are LIFE, I AM the way,the truth and the LIFE,The LIFE was manifested and we proclaim to you the ETERNAL Life which was with the Father, and was manifested to us- The Prologue of 1st John. So we see that when John uses the phrase True God and Eternal Life together in 1 John 5:20 that He is referring to Christ as the closest antecedent making Him the True God and Eternal Life.
Also we see that when we search the NT that Eternal Life is never used of the Father without the Son but we see that Eternal Life is used over and over with Jesus where the Father is never mentioned. This makes a solid case for Jesus in 1 John 5:20 as the True God and Eternal Life.
1 John 5:20
20 We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may knowhim who is true. And we are in him who is true — even in his Son Jesus Christ. He(Jesus) is the true God and eternal life.
On behalf of seeing χριστος as the antecedent are the following arguments: (1) Although it is true that αληθινος θεος is not elsewhere referred to Christ, αληθεια is, and is so in Johannine literature (John 14:6).
29 Winer-Moulton, 195.
Further, αληθινος θεος is not a "constant.. epithet" as Winer supposes, being found only in John 17:3 and 1 John 5:20! (2) Christ is also said to be ζωη in John's writings John 11:25; 14:6; 1 John 1:1-2), an epithet nowhere else used of the Father. (3) The demonstrative pronoun, ουτος, in the Gospel and Epistles of John seems to be used in a theologically rich manner.30 Specifically, of the approximately seventy instances in which ουτος has a personal referent, as many as forty- four of them (almost two-thirds of the instances) refer to the Son. Of the remainder, most imply some sort of positive connection with the Son.31 What is most significant is that never is the Father the referent.For what it is worth, this datum increases the probability that ιησου χριστω is the antecedent in 1 John 5:20. 32 The issue cannot be decided on grammar alone. But suffice it to say here that there are no grammatical reasons for denying that αληθινος θεος is descriptive of Jesus Christ.
My top 10 biblical and exegetical reasons Jesus Christ is the True God and Eternal Life.
1st- Jesus is called God in the writings of John(1:1,20:28,1 John 5:20)
2nd- Jesus is called Eternal Life over and over again in Johns writings
3rd- John opens up his epistle with the Eternal life(Jesus) that was with the Father in the beginning and was manifest to the disciples(1 John 1:1-5)
4th- John ends his epistle with Jesus who is eternal life and only is eternal life found in Him who is the true God.
5th- never is eternal life used of the Father alone. When the Father is included the Son is always mentioned together with the Father making them equal. Equality with the Father was not something Jesus needed to grasp at as He already possessed complete Deity as God.(Phil 2, Col 2:9)
6th- John would not leave his readers with any ambiguity warning them to guard themselves from idols(5:21) So this would be clear his reference was to those who reject Jesus as the true God. They are the idoloters and antichrists John writes of in his epistles.
7th- Jesus is also the True God and the True one in 1 John. Jesus is the true light which brings light to all men (John 1:9) Jesus is the truth (John 14:6)Jesus is the true vine (John 15:1). Jesus is the true witness of God (John 18:37) He who is true (Revelation 3:7) Jesus is the faithful and true witness (Revelation 3:14)Jesus is Lord God Almighty, Just and true are your ways(Revelation 15:3) Jesus is faithful and true(Revelation 19:11).
8th- [In John's writings] Of the approximately 70instances in which ουτος has a personal referent, as many as 44 of them (almost 2/3 . . . ) refer to the Son. Of the remainder, most imply some sort of positive connection with the Son.31 What is most significant is that NEVER is the Father the referent.FWIW, this datum increases the probability that ιησου χριστω IS the antecedent in 1 John 5:20. Wallace.
9th- Netbible- Wallace
If This one in 5:20 is understood as referring to Jesus, it forms an inclusion with the prologue, which introduced the reader to "the eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us." Thus it appears best to understand the pronoun This one in 5:20 as a reference to Jesus Christ. The christological affirmation which results is striking, but certainly not beyond the capabilities of the author (see John 1:1 and 20:28): This One [Jesus Christ] is the true God and eternal life.
10th- This/ He (autos)Jesus Christ (the last-named Person) is the true God
Conclusion: So the most logical conclusion is that it refers to Jesus as the true God. Not only is this Wallace's conclusion from Johns usage of outos but He is the closest antecedent (most times in the NT this principal holds true). Eternal Life is never used of the Father alone in John’s writings and only a couple of times does John include the Father with the Son regarding eternal life. John opens up his epistles describing the "eternal life" who was with the Father in the beginning and then ends his epistle with eternal life identifying Jesus as the true God and eternal life. John then says this in the last verse:
1 John 5:21-Guard yourselves from idols- Now why would he leave any ambiguity in verse 20 as to the identity of the true God and eternal life then turn around commanding them to protect themselves from idolatry? It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever unless John is identifying Jesus as the true God and refuting the Gnostics of his day who denied the Incarnation.This is the last of the contrasts of which the Epistle is so full. We have had light and darkness, truth and falsehood, love and hate, God and the world, Christ and Antichrist, life and death, doing righteousness and doing sin, the children of God and the children of the devil, the spirit of truth and the spirit of error, the believer untouched by the evil one and the world lying in the evil one; and now at the close we have what in that age was the ever present and pressing contrast between the true God Jesus Christ and the idols.
hope this helps !!!
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