The Bible does not teach to pray to Jesus

Such simple things remain confusing to you when you misunderstand the broad message.
You never cease to make me blink a few times, shake my head, and chuckle a bit. It's interesting you say such things. Isn't your belief system based on a "great mystery?" We don't believe God is a mystery in Christianity. It says all over the place that Jesus revealed Him. He didn't reveal a 3-in-1 God.
 
You never cease to make me blink a few times, shake my head, and chuckle a bit. It's interesting you say such things. Isn't your belief system based on a "great mystery?" We don't believe God is a mystery in Christianity. It says all over the place that Jesus revealed Him. He didn't reveal a 3-in-1 God.
Then you have a human-based limitation against knowing Christ Jesus since you do not know what God can do.
 
View attachment 1278

@mikesw understands. And you do not?

How is it you can read the same replies, albeit somewhat worded a little differently, and still have no idea or understanding?

I can assure you that when we read what you post we understand you. And what you are saying. And from where you believe you are right.
But you are not.
I just don't understand your sentence. Just taught everyone to pray to the Father right? So when you talk about praying to Jesus, it's not something he said to do.
I am willing to bet that there never has been a single time in your life that you have said Goodnight or Thank you to the Holy Spirit much less to the one who was pierced and shed His blood for you.
View attachment 1279
How much money are you willing to lose? Not that it's any of your business, but since you bring it up I pray several times daily or as needed.
 
So the Father isn't the only true God? Jesus said that in John 17:1-3.
I was going to express disbelief that you tried that verse out of context again. It would have been better to leave those verses out of the discussion since Jesus had his glory with the Father before the world existed. But you have run out of arguments, so you return to the same denials over and over again. It really does not make sense to use verses about the deity of Christ in order for you to deny the deity of Christ in the Godhead. Those arguments will hardly be convincing to anyone around here.
 
You never cease to make me blink a few times, shake my head, and chuckle a bit. It's interesting you say such things. Isn't your belief system based on a "great mystery?" We don't believe God is a mystery in Christianity. It says all over the place that Jesus revealed Him. He didn't reveal a 3-in-1 God.
Since you did not respond to this when I posted it elsewhere... have a little more indepth into the subject...


Does God Come to Earth before Jesus’ Birth? - Explore the Bible

“The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth” (John 1:14).When we look for God in the Bible, we often look in the most obvious places: t...
www.biblestudytools.com
www.biblestudytools.com
Bethany Pyle

Editor, BibleStudyTools.com
UpdatedApril 23, 2021
PLUS

“The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth” (John 1:14).
When we look for God in the Bible, we often look in the most obvious places: the Gospels, which tell us about the incredible life of Jesus. But when we flip back to the Old Testament, God can often feel more distant. After all, as humans we were made to interact and connect with other humans – it’s easy for us to relate to God through Jesus.
But if we dig a bit deeper into the Old Testament, we see a personal, human God who came bodily to earth on more than one occasion. These appearances of God are known as a theophany, and they can come in many forms. These can be nature-related, as when God appears on Mount Sinai (Exodus 19:16-20), vision-related, like what Daniel see in Daniel 10, or one of many others. There are several examples in the Old Testament of angels coming to earth for various reasons, but these should not be confused with a theophany. Angels, while heavenly beings, are not equivalent in power to God the Father or God the Son.
There is a type of theophany where God appears as a man. We’ll look at three of these, and see that although God’s plan was to send Jesus to earth in the early 1st Century, He did not leave humanity unattended in the meantime. Our God is personal and compassionate, and He always has been.
Photo credit: ©Getty Images/solarseven

Who Does Jesus Say He Is?​

“Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel” (Isaiah 7:14).
“’She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.’ All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: ‘The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel’ (which means ‘God with us’)” (Matthew 1:21-23).
When we look at the appearance of God in the Old Testament, we can ask ourselves – “is this Jesus?” That’s the question that sparked my interest in this article, so let’s look at who Jesus says He is.
The foundation of our Christian faith rests on the fact that Jesus is not only the Son of God, but God Himself. But Jesus' birth, life, death and resurrection reaffirms this fact. It isn’t just something that we can guess at or gather – Jesus says that He is the Son of God. His life points to His deity on no uncertain terms. Let’s let Scripture speak for itself:
“’I and the Father are one.’ Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, ‘I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?’ ‘We are not stoning you for any good work,’ they replied, ‘but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God’” (John 10:30-33).
“Moses said to God, ‘Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ Then what shall I tell them?’ God said to Moses, ‘I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you’” (Exodus 3:13-14).
“But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer. Again the high priest asked him, ‘Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?’ ‘I am,’ said Jesus. ‘And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven’ (Mark 14:61-62, emphasis added).
Jesus isn’t the only one who speaks about His deity. We see several examples later in the New Testament as well:
“…While we wait for the blessed hope — the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ” (Titus 2:13).
“Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage” (Philippians 2:6).
The very concept of the Trinity is beyond human understanding. It’s certainly beyond my understanding. But, based on the evidence above, it is fair to assume that Jesus is God. They are the same; they are one. When we hear the voice of God speaking to Moses in the burning bush, it is Jesus also. When Jesus healed the sick on earth, it was the power of God at work within Him.
Photo credit: ©Getty Images/miflippo

Jesus with Abraham​

Ephesians 1:4 reminds us that God chose us to be His “before the foundation of the world.” Indeed, the first words of Genesis say that before creation, the earth was formless and void, with only the Spirit of God “hovering over the waters” (Genesis 1:2).
If, by our previous reasoning, Jesus and God are one, and by this new evidence, that God has always been, and will always be, then we can conclude that Jesus has also always been. He says so Himself:
“’Very truly I tell you,’ Jesus answered, ‘before Abraham was born, I am!’” (John 8:58).
In Genesis 18, Abraham receives three heavenly visitors. He knows right away that they are no ordinary men, as he hurries out of his door and bows to them the moment he sees them. Genesis 18:1 spoils it for us by leading with “The LORD appeared to Abraham…”
But unlike a vision or pillar of smoke, this is a flesh-and-blood man who sits with the patriarch. Verses 4-8 list the ways that Abraham shows hospitality to his guests – he offers them fresh water and prepares quite a nice meal while they wait. Genesis 1:8 tells us that the four of them ate together.
This seems like a small point to make, but it’s important to note that Abraham broke bread and ate together with these men. It’s a sign of this heavenly being’s humanity. Tim Chaffey of Answers in Genesis makes a similar point, even earlier in Genesis:
“Remember, after Adam and Eve sinned and sewed fig leaves together, they ‘heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day’ (Genesis 3:8, emphasis added). The implication is that God appeared in physical form since they heard Him walking in the garden prior to confronting Adam and Eve.”
God bodily walked in the Garden with Adam and Eve. God bodily came to earth to give Abraham the good news that he would soon be a father. He is never distant from His people.
But, as so often happens with us, we sometimes need God to come to earth and knock some sense into us. In some cases, literally.

Jesus with Jacob​

If we fast-forward a few generations past Abraham, we find the story of Jacob. For a patriarch of Judaism, and eventually Christianity, Jacob was a bit problematic. By Genesis 32, he has already tricked his older brother out of his birthright, and tricked his dying father into giving him Esau’s blessing. Following this, Jacob goes on the run. But by Genesis 32, he is ready to reunite with his brother and seek forgiveness.
The night before this reunion, Jacob finds himself locked in a fierce wrestling match with a mysterious man. Just like Abraham before him, Jacob knows this is no ordinary man.
“When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob’s hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man. Then the man said, ‘Let me go, for it is daybreak.’ But Jacob replied, ‘I will not let you go unless you bless me.’ The man asked him, ‘What is your name?’ ‘Jacob,’ he answered. Then the man said, ‘Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with humans and have overcome’” (Genesis 32:25-28).
“So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, ‘It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared’” (Genesis 32:30).
Once again, God came to earth to interact directly with men. This time, it was as a challenge. Jacob physically wrestled with God, on the eve of a significant challenge in his life. Maybe you can relate to this, spending the night wrestling with God. But this struggle is never one-sided, and it is never pointless. It can be difficult for us to follow the path God has laid out, and turning from that path will have consequences, as Jacob sees both physically, in his injured hip, and emotionally and spiritually.
But God is with us in our moments of doubt. He is with us as we struggle to follow the path of righteousness, and He will guide us through.

Jesus in the Fiery Furnace​

“The king’s command was so urgent and the furnace so hot that the flames of the fire killed the soldiers who took up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, and these three men, firmly tied, fell into the blazing furnace. Then King Nebuchadnezzar leaped to his feet in amazement and asked his advisers, ‘Weren’t there three men that we tied up and threw into the fire?’ They replied, ‘Certainly, Your Majesty.’ He said, ‘Look! I see four men walking around in the fire, unbound and unharmed, and the fourth looks like a son of the gods’” (Daniel 3:22-25).
In the book of Daniel, we find our last example. After refusing to bow to the pagan idols, Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego are sentenced to execution. They are thrown into a fire pit so hot, it kills the soldiers who tossed them in. But the three men are not consumed; in fact, Nebuchadnezzar is shocked to see a fourth man among the flames.
We may be tempted to zero in on his exclamation “the fourth looks like a son of the gods,” but it’s important to remember that Nebuchadnezzar is pagan – he is probably referring to plural gods, not recognizing the Son of the one true God. And in all fairness, this could be an angel that God sent in His place - not a true theophany. Unlike with the previous encounters, there is no statement affirming that it was God Himself, so this passage is up for interpretation.
Regardless, both we the reader, and Nebuchadnezzar, recognize that something supernatural has happened (not the least of which is that the three condemned men refuse to die.)
We see in this story that God is with his people in their trials. God protected the three faithful men, saving them even from death. God doesn’t just sit idly by as we struggle, He is with us no matter what dangers and trials we face. The prophet Isaiah reminds us of this when he writes of God:
“When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; and when you pass through the rivers, they will not sweep over you. When you walk through the fire, you will not be burned; the flames will not set you ablaze” (Isaiah 43:2).

God Is Unchanging​

Chaffey writes “Rather than undermining the uniqueness and importance of Christ, theophanies affirm the uniqueness of Jesus. They also show the intimacy of God with His creation, unlike the distant god of deism that some people incorrectly associate with the God of the Bible.”
These Old Testament examples do not mean that Jesus’ birth and our Christmas celebrations are less important. Because we see examples of God coming in bodily form in other places in the Bible, it does not lessen Jesus’ power and importance. As Chaffey explains, it should make us even more awed by Him.
The three examples I listed above are not the only times we see God in the Old Testament. I'd encourage you to do your own investigations; look for the ways that God reveals Himself to humanity, and ponder what that shows about His character and compassion. Our God is not distant, and never has been. We see Him walking among and interacting with human beings in both Testaments of the Bible. And even if we don’t see it in the same way in our modern world, we can be absolutely confidant that God is still among us today, through the power of the Holy Spirit.
God is unchanging. He cared for Abraham, Jacob and the three faithful men in the Old Testament. He cared for His disciples, His family and the crowds around Him in the New Testament. And He cares for you now, 2,000 years later.
 
I just don't understand your sentence. Just taught everyone to pray to the Father right? So when you talk about praying to Jesus, it's not something he said to do.

How much money are you willing to lose? Not that it's any of your business, but since you bring it up I pray several times daily or as needed.
What was He here for? What purpose did he walk this ball of mud? How long was he actually alive in His ministry?
 
That is an utterly amazing discovery that you have found. Who would have expected that the prophets had not say "God would encounter pain and suffering to reconcile Israel with himself?" However, your error is not recognizing the pattern God wove through scripture. So you ignorance is recognized as something common to a lay reading of scripture.
1738017672358.jpeg
 
I was going to express disbelief that you tried that verse out of context again. It would have been better to leave those verses out of the discussion since Jesus had his glory with the Father before the world existed. But you have run out of arguments, so you return to the same denials over and over again. It really does not make sense to use verses about the deity of Christ in order for you to deny the deity of Christ in the Godhead. Those arguments will hardly be convincing to anyone around here.
So when John 17:1-3 bluntly states in no vague or uncertain terms that the Father is the only true God, Jesus was speaking out of context. How about when Paul echoed the same facts about the only God being the Father in Ephesians 4:6 and 1 Corinthians 8:6? Out of context again?
 
Since you did not respond to this when I posted it elsewhere... have a little more indepth into the subject...


Does God Come to Earth before Jesus’ Birth? - Explore the Bible

“The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth” (John 1:14).When we look for God in the Bible, we often look in the most obvious places: t...
www.biblestudytools.com
www.biblestudytools.com
Bethany Pyle

Editor, BibleStudyTools.com
UpdatedApril 23, 2021
PLUS

“The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth” (John 1:14).
When we look for God in the Bible, we often look in the most obvious places: the Gospels, which tell us about the incredible life of Jesus. But when we flip back to the Old Testament, God can often feel more distant. After all, as humans we were made to interact and connect with other humans – it’s easy for us to relate to God through Jesus.
But if we dig a bit deeper into the Old Testament, we see a personal, human God who came bodily to earth on more than one occasion. These appearances of God are known as a theophany, and they can come in many forms. These can be nature-related, as when God appears on Mount Sinai (Exodus 19:16-20), vision-related, like what Daniel see in Daniel 10, or one of many others. There are several examples in the Old Testament of angels coming to earth for various reasons, but these should not be confused with a theophany. Angels, while heavenly beings, are not equivalent in power to God the Father or God the Son.
There is a type of theophany where God appears as a man. We’ll look at three of these, and see that although God’s plan was to send Jesus to earth in the early 1st Century, He did not leave humanity unattended in the meantime. Our God is personal and compassionate, and He always has been.
Photo credit: ©Getty Images/solarseven

Who Does Jesus Say He Is?​

“Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel” (Isaiah 7:14).
“’She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.’ All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: ‘The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel’ (which means ‘God with us’)” (Matthew 1:21-23).
When we look at the appearance of God in the Old Testament, we can ask ourselves – “is this Jesus?” That’s the question that sparked my interest in this article, so let’s look at who Jesus says He is.
The foundation of our Christian faith rests on the fact that Jesus is not only the Son of God, but God Himself. But Jesus' birth, life, death and resurrection reaffirms this fact. It isn’t just something that we can guess at or gather – Jesus says that He is the Son of God. His life points to His deity on no uncertain terms. Let’s let Scripture speak for itself:
“’I and the Father are one.’ Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, ‘I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?’ ‘We are not stoning you for any good work,’ they replied, ‘but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God’” (John 10:30-33).
“Moses said to God, ‘Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ Then what shall I tell them?’ God said to Moses, ‘I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you’” (Exodus 3:13-14).
“But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer. Again the high priest asked him, ‘Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?’ ‘I am,’ said Jesus. ‘And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven’ (Mark 14:61-62, emphasis added).
Jesus isn’t the only one who speaks about His deity. We see several examples later in the New Testament as well:
“…While we wait for the blessed hope — the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ” (Titus 2:13).
“Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage” (Philippians 2:6).
The very concept of the Trinity is beyond human understanding. It’s certainly beyond my understanding. But, based on the evidence above, it is fair to assume that Jesus is God. They are the same; they are one. When we hear the voice of God speaking to Moses in the burning bush, it is Jesus also. When Jesus healed the sick on earth, it was the power of God at work within Him.
Photo credit: ©Getty Images/miflippo

Jesus with Abraham​

Ephesians 1:4 reminds us that God chose us to be His “before the foundation of the world.” Indeed, the first words of Genesis say that before creation, the earth was formless and void, with only the Spirit of God “hovering over the waters” (Genesis 1:2).
If, by our previous reasoning, Jesus and God are one, and by this new evidence, that God has always been, and will always be, then we can conclude that Jesus has also always been. He says so Himself:
“’Very truly I tell you,’ Jesus answered, ‘before Abraham was born, I am!’” (John 8:58).
In Genesis 18, Abraham receives three heavenly visitors. He knows right away that they are no ordinary men, as he hurries out of his door and bows to them the moment he sees them. Genesis 18:1 spoils it for us by leading with “The LORD appeared to Abraham…”
But unlike a vision or pillar of smoke, this is a flesh-and-blood man who sits with the patriarch. Verses 4-8 list the ways that Abraham shows hospitality to his guests – he offers them fresh water and prepares quite a nice meal while they wait. Genesis 1:8 tells us that the four of them ate together.
This seems like a small point to make, but it’s important to note that Abraham broke bread and ate together with these men. It’s a sign of this heavenly being’s humanity. Tim Chaffey of Answers in Genesis makes a similar point, even earlier in Genesis:
“Remember, after Adam and Eve sinned and sewed fig leaves together, they ‘heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day’ (Genesis 3:8, emphasis added). The implication is that God appeared in physical form since they heard Him walking in the garden prior to confronting Adam and Eve.”
God bodily walked in the Garden with Adam and Eve. God bodily came to earth to give Abraham the good news that he would soon be a father. He is never distant from His people.
But, as so often happens with us, we sometimes need God to come to earth and knock some sense into us. In some cases, literally.

Jesus with Jacob​

If we fast-forward a few generations past Abraham, we find the story of Jacob. For a patriarch of Judaism, and eventually Christianity, Jacob was a bit problematic. By Genesis 32, he has already tricked his older brother out of his birthright, and tricked his dying father into giving him Esau’s blessing. Following this, Jacob goes on the run. But by Genesis 32, he is ready to reunite with his brother and seek forgiveness.
The night before this reunion, Jacob finds himself locked in a fierce wrestling match with a mysterious man. Just like Abraham before him, Jacob knows this is no ordinary man.
“When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob’s hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man. Then the man said, ‘Let me go, for it is daybreak.’ But Jacob replied, ‘I will not let you go unless you bless me.’ The man asked him, ‘What is your name?’ ‘Jacob,’ he answered. Then the man said, ‘Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with humans and have overcome’” (Genesis 32:25-28).
“So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, ‘It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared’” (Genesis 32:30).
Once again, God came to earth to interact directly with men. This time, it was as a challenge. Jacob physically wrestled with God, on the eve of a significant challenge in his life. Maybe you can relate to this, spending the night wrestling with God. But this struggle is never one-sided, and it is never pointless. It can be difficult for us to follow the path God has laid out, and turning from that path will have consequences, as Jacob sees both physically, in his injured hip, and emotionally and spiritually.
But God is with us in our moments of doubt. He is with us as we struggle to follow the path of righteousness, and He will guide us through.

Jesus in the Fiery Furnace​

“The king’s command was so urgent and the furnace so hot that the flames of the fire killed the soldiers who took up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, and these three men, firmly tied, fell into the blazing furnace. Then King Nebuchadnezzar leaped to his feet in amazement and asked his advisers, ‘Weren’t there three men that we tied up and threw into the fire?’ They replied, ‘Certainly, Your Majesty.’ He said, ‘Look! I see four men walking around in the fire, unbound and unharmed, and the fourth looks like a son of the gods’” (Daniel 3:22-25).
In the book of Daniel, we find our last example. After refusing to bow to the pagan idols, Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego are sentenced to execution. They are thrown into a fire pit so hot, it kills the soldiers who tossed them in. But the three men are not consumed; in fact, Nebuchadnezzar is shocked to see a fourth man among the flames.
We may be tempted to zero in on his exclamation “the fourth looks like a son of the gods,” but it’s important to remember that Nebuchadnezzar is pagan – he is probably referring to plural gods, not recognizing the Son of the one true God. And in all fairness, this could be an angel that God sent in His place - not a true theophany. Unlike with the previous encounters, there is no statement affirming that it was God Himself, so this passage is up for interpretation.
Regardless, both we the reader, and Nebuchadnezzar, recognize that something supernatural has happened (not the least of which is that the three condemned men refuse to die.)
We see in this story that God is with his people in their trials. God protected the three faithful men, saving them even from death. God doesn’t just sit idly by as we struggle, He is with us no matter what dangers and trials we face. The prophet Isaiah reminds us of this when he writes of God:
“When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; and when you pass through the rivers, they will not sweep over you. When you walk through the fire, you will not be burned; the flames will not set you ablaze” (Isaiah 43:2).

God Is Unchanging​

Chaffey writes “Rather than undermining the uniqueness and importance of Christ, theophanies affirm the uniqueness of Jesus. They also show the intimacy of God with His creation, unlike the distant god of deism that some people incorrectly associate with the God of the Bible.”
These Old Testament examples do not mean that Jesus’ birth and our Christmas celebrations are less important. Because we see examples of God coming in bodily form in other places in the Bible, it does not lessen Jesus’ power and importance. As Chaffey explains, it should make us even more awed by Him.
The three examples I listed above are not the only times we see God in the Old Testament. I'd encourage you to do your own investigations; look for the ways that God reveals Himself to humanity, and ponder what that shows about His character and compassion. Our God is not distant, and never has been. We see Him walking among and interacting with human beings in both Testaments of the Bible. And even if we don’t see it in the same way in our modern world, we can be absolutely confidant that God is still among us today, through the power of the Holy Spirit.
God is unchanging. He cared for Abraham, Jacob and the three faithful men in the Old Testament. He cared for His disciples, His family and the crowds around Him in the New Testament. And He cares for you now, 2,000 years later.
Too much to comment on without it turning into a dissertation, but John 1:9-13 is a prooftext that the True Light is not Jesus. It speaks of the True Light giving light to every man that "cometh into the world" which is a present tense statement. In the context, the present tense was after John the Baptist had already came to bear witness of that Light. This would place Jesus at 30 years old at the same time the True Light was coming into the world.

It talks about this one as being in the world and the world being made by him, but that the world did not know him. The Father is the one who Jesus came to make known as Matt 11:27, John 1:18, John 14:7-10, John 17:6, John 17:25,26, and several other verses say.

Furthermore, one of your points is that God is unchanging. Yet an often quoted set of verses is John 1:1,14 in which Trinitarians say the Word incarnated as a human. That's a fundamental change in nature. Yet Hebrews 13:8 says Jesus is the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. If that were true in the interpretation you have provided, then it would mean Jesus has always been a human being since time eternal. See where this is going? The Trinitarian model doesn't really make sense.
 
So when John 17:1-3 bluntly states in no vague or uncertain terms that the Father is the only true God, Jesus was speaking out of context. How about when Paul echoed the same facts about the only God being the Father in Ephesians 4:6 and 1 Corinthians 8:6? Out of context again?
The issue is not whether there is some other God but whether Jesus is one of the three in the Godhead. You always avoid John 17:5. Do I need to skip that verse? You should not skip verses just because they cancel everything that you claim.
 
The issue is not whether there is some other God but whether Jesus is one of the three in the Godhead. You always avoid John 17:5. Do I need to skip that verse? You should not skip verses just because they cancel everything that you claim.
John 17:5 doesn't alter Jesus' previous statement about who God is. Why did Jesus pray to "now" (present tense) receive the glory he had with God before the world was if it was supposedly already in his possession since time eternal? Furthermore, what is the glory that Jesus received at that time?
 
John 17:5 doesn't alter Jesus' previous statement about who God is. Why did Jesus pray to "now" (present tense) receive the glory he had with God before the world was if it was supposedly already in his possession since time eternal? Furthermore, what is the glory that Jesus received at that time?
you heard that Jesus humbled himself? Maybe that is beyond your reading level. You heard that he is glorified in resurrection? Maybe you could find the answer there. It seems you fail to keep these details in proper perspective. If you did have proper perspective, you would not have to ask me. I'm glad to help if it helps.
 
you heard that Jesus humbled himself? Maybe that is beyond your reading level. You heard that he is glorified in resurrection? Maybe you could find the answer there. It seems you fail to keep these details in proper perspective. If you did have proper perspective, you would not have to ask me. I'm glad to help if it helps.
This is your time to answer questions and in doing so perhaps you will discover the truth if you wish. So Jesus was glorified in resurrection before the world was? How did he have that glory before the world was if he wasn't resurrected at that time except for in God's foreknowledge? Jesus was raised in glory after he was already born.
 
This is your time to answer questions and in doing so perhaps you will discover the truth if you wish. So Jesus was glorified in resurrection before the world was? How did he have that glory before the world was if he wasn't resurrected at that time except for in God's foreknowledge? Jesus was raised in glory after he was already born.
indeed. His glory is being fully present in the Godhead. Too bad you have not put your mind to the task of understanding this. The questions help realize in greater detail what Jesus said. So there are some benefits in answering your questions, despite your interest in denying (or misunderstanding) who Christ is. If you had a viable theory about Christ, it should have been clear by now. But you have not made a good argument.
 
indeed. His glory is being fully present in the Godhead. Too bad you have not put your mind to the task of understanding this. The questions help realize in greater detail what Jesus said. So there are some benefits in answering your questions, despite your interest in denying (or misunderstanding) who Christ is. If you had a viable theory about Christ, it should have been clear by now. But you have not made a good argument.
John 17:5 merely speaks to glory in God's foreknowledge. Same thing in Revelation. He wasn't literally slain before the world was. People have glory from God is a non-literal way without actually existing. It's also evident by other verses. what would really help make yours a viable doctrine is if you had even one verse from the Old Testament of a pre-existent Jesus.

John 17
24Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Revelation 13
8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1
4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
 
Is that the only suggestion you have for these verses?
Do you not have the NT to inform you of the greater revelation of God to humanity? You make up foreknowledge even though that does not imply existence. The verse speaks of existence. THen John 17:24 speaks against of existence before having the physical incarnation as Jesus. So Rev 13:8 can speak of the plan of Jesus from the disruption or foundation of the world. Then Ephesians 1:4 is not have to be pre-existence of individual people but rather that people would be in Christ as planned early on.
You lack any substance though you try to find proof texts for your denial of the deity of Christ in the Godhead. You should seek to understand Christ instead of just denying who he is.
 
There's no prophecy in the Old Testament that God would encounter pain and suffering just as any non-incarnate person would encounter it. Not even one verse.
Two things are available in the OT if one chooses to see them:
  1. The "Messiah" would suffer [Isaiah 53 among other places].
  2. The "Son of Man" is God-like or is God [Daniel 7 - I think].
I leave it to people with a desire to strain gnats and swallow camels to argue about whether the OT ever identifies (prophetically) that the Messiah will be the Son of man (or the Son of Man is the Messiah). I am content to take the word of John and Jesus that it is so without concerning myself with OT prophecy about the link.
 
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