The Bible does not teach to pray to Jesus

[Fred]

Yes and Lord is Jesus whom Stephen was calling out to in prayer.

Acts 22:12-16
12 And one Ananias, a devout man according to the Law, having a good report of all the Jews who dwelt there,
13 Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him.
14 And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know His will, and see the Righteous One, and shouldest hear the voice of His mouth.
15 For thou shalt be His witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.
16 And now why tarriest thou? Arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on His Name.

 

[civic]

Acts 22:12-16
12 And one Ananias, a devout man according to the Law, having a good report of all the Jews who dwelt there,
13 Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him.
14 And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know His will, and see the Righteous One, and shouldest hear the voice of His mouth.
15 For thou shalt be His witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.
16 And now why tarriest thou? Arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on His Name.

Amen more evidence !!!

In a courtroom Jesus would be found guilty of being called God, worshipped and the recipient of prayer from the Bible,

Evidence that demands a verdict !!!!!!!!

One of the first books I read and one of the best ever written about Jesus. More than a carpenter was pretty good little book too.

 

[Fred]

Amen more evidence !!!

It's all over the place.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

If I do so silently within my heart does He fully know my heart and does He fully know the hearts of all people?

Good morning, Fred

When you pray to Jesus silently with the right intention, the Holy Spirit of God, the power of God, knows it.
Likewise, the Spirit helps us in our weaknesses, for we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. (Romans 8:26)

Jesus could know the intentions of the people coming to Him because the Spirit of God dwelled in him.
Peter could know that Annanias and Saphire were telling lies because the Spirit of God dwelled in him.

However, Jesus Himself taught that it is the Father, the Only and True God, who knows the secrets of your heart and will reward you accordingly (Matthew 6:18)

 

[civic]

It's all over the place.

for those who have been granted keys to see and Jesus removes the salve from their eyes.

lets pray for some Jesus spit on some mud to be slapped on their eyes to remove the blinders.

 

[Fred]

Good morning, Fred

When you pray to Jesus silently with the right intention, the Holy Spirit of God, the power of God, knows it.

Since He is referred to as the Spirit of Jesus means Jesus fully knows the hearts of all.

 

[Runningman]

grammatically the text calls Christ both God and Savior just like it calls Him Lord and Savior. The construction is the exact same.

you have no leg to stand upon from the text, the Greek or grammatically but only your BIASED opinion based upon your PRESUPPOSITIONS you read into every text which is : Jesus is not God therefor I will deny every text which calls Him God, infers He is God, prayed to as God and worshipped as God by His disciples and those he healed.

Not really. You're using the "Granville Sharp Rule" which is not a valid proof since it's not a real rule in English grammar. They aren't teaching this to kids in school, never have, probably never will. It doesn't require that God and Jesus be the same person. I'll explain how.

Firstly, I would like to just mention that the KJV doesn't use the construction that the version you use does:

2 Peter 1 (KJV)​

1Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:​

Is the KJV wrong? Many people who are Trinitarian swear by the KJV as Sola Scriptura, the infallible, inerrant, word of God. Don't they? I supposed there are many on this forum who agree with the KJV, including myself.

The context should ultimately guide our understanding and of a passage. Why would Jesus be God in one verse in 2 Peter when he clearly is not. See 2 Peter 1:2, 2 Peter 1:17-18, and the rest of the book.

 

[Fred]

You're using the "Granville Sharp Rule" which is not a valid proof since it's not a real rule in English grammar.

The NT was not originally written in English.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Keep going...

Acts 3:14
But ye denied the Holy and Righteous One, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you.


"The Righteous One" (in reference to Jesus) is also used in Acts 7.

Acts 7:52
Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? And they have slain those who previously announced the coming of the Righteous One; whose betrayers and murderers you have now become.

The Righteous One, being the Lord, links with the fact that the Lord Jesus is the proper recipient of prayer (which proves He is God).
Acts 7:59-60
(59) And they stoned Stephen as he called out saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
(60) And falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, Lord, do not hold this sin against them!

Dear @civic and Dear Fred

The Righteous One is a title being given to the Messiah, and not the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
The apostles are presenting the God of Israel as one Being, and the "Righteous One" as another being.

So, if you are intending to present the title "The Righteous One" as evidence of the deity of Jesus, you have been refuted by the same apostles.

 

[Fred]

Dear @civic and Dear Fred

The Righteous One is a title being given to the Messiah, and not the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Since it used in connection with praying to Jesus proves He is God.

 

[Runningman]

Worship is but one form of prayer but Jesus was worshipped as well

But again you self refute for Jesus was worshipped

John 9:37–38 (KJV 1900) — 37 And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee. 38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.

Mark 5:6 (KJV 1900) — 6 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,

Matthew 28:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.

Worshipping God doesn't involve kneeling like how they did to Jesus. Jesus only taught to worship the Father in spirit and truth, nor are there any commandments about Jesus seeking this kind of worship, etc. In the Old Testament, there are examples of people being worshipped who aren't God.

So I believe what you're proposing contains a consistency issue. You have not demonstrated how bowing to Jesus is any different to bowing to any other man such as Nathan before the king in 1 Kings 1:23, Lot before the angels in Genesis 19:1, etc where the word used to describe what happens can mean worship.

While on the other hand, isn't the only one who is taught to have spirit and truth worship the Father? That is not Jesus. This worship is exclusive to the Father, not Jesus. That's pretty good evidence that Jesus is not himself God.

John 4
21“Believe Me, woman,” Jesus replied, “a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22You worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23But a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for the Father is seeking such as these to worship Him. 24God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship Him in spirit and in truth.”

 

[civic]

Not really. You're using the "Granville Sharp Rule" which is not a valid proof since it's not a real rule in English grammar. They aren't teaching this to kids in school, never have, probably never will. It doesn't require that God and Jesus be the same person. I'll explain how.

Firstly, I would like to just mention that the KJV doesn't use the construction that the version you use does:

2 Peter 1 (KJV)​

1Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:​

Is the KJV wrong? Many people who are Trinitarian swear by the KJV as Sola Scriptura, the infallible, inerrant, word of God. Don't they? I supposed there are many on this forum who agree with the KJV, including myself.

The context should ultimately guide our understanding and of a passage. Why would Jesus be God in one verse in 2 Peter when he clearly is not. See 2 Peter 1:2, 2 Peter 1:17-18, and the rest of the book.

the KJV is incorrect. The Greek does not say of God and our Savior.

are you saying in 1:11 that Lord and Savior are the same person or 2 different persons ?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Below is just one example of many I can provide from Peter, Paul and John affirming the Deity of Christ , that He is God.

I beg to differ in the word "many" that you are using.
I think you should have said "Below is just one example of the few I can provide..."

For every verse of this kind that you could present, I could present perhaps about 20, using the same format in which Peter, Paul or John present another Being, who is not Jesus, as God. Furthermore, in several of those passages, I could present how that God who is not Jesus is called specifically "The Father".

So, my friend, the verses you are presenting are few, not many, and represent about 5% of the total of apostolic statements of the same format.
I think these verses are just wrong transcriptions/translations.
I prefer to rule out to 5% and stay with the 95%.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Since it used in connection with praying to Jesus proves He is God.

Could you please show in which verse or statement it is used in connection to praying to Jesus?
And could you please explain how Jesus can be God, if the apostles are presenting God as Someone different from Jesus, and the Father of Jesus?

 

[Fred]

Could you please show in which verse or statement it is used in connection to praying to Jesus?
And could you please explain how Jesus can be God, if the apostles are presenting God as Someone different from Jesus, and the Father of Jesus?

Post 195 and 201.

 

[civic]

below we see the bad translation of the KJV.

The Greek is identical in both verses with God and Savior/Lord and Savior. They mistranslated 1:1.

Berean Greek New Testament 2016
Συμεὼν Πέτρος δοῦλος καὶ ἀπόστολος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ Τοῖς ἰσότιμον ἡμῖν λαχοῦσιν πίστιν ἐν δικαιοσύνῃ τοῦ Θεοῦ ἡμῶν καὶ Σωτῆρος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ·
SBL Greek New Testament 2010
Συμεὼν Πέτρος δοῦλος καὶ ἀπόστολος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ τοῖς ἰσότιμον ἡμῖν λαχοῦσιν πίστιν ἐν δικαιοσύνῃ τοῦ θεοῦ ἡμῶν καὶ σωτῆρος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ·

Nestle Greek New Testament 1904
Συμεὼν Πέτρος δοῦλος καὶ ἀπόστολος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ τοῖς ἰσότιμον ἡμῖν λαχοῦσιν πίστιν ἐν δικαιοσύνῃ τοῦ Θεοῦ ἡμῶν καὶ Σωτῆρος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ·

Westcott and Hort 1881
ΣΙΜΩΝ ΠΕΤΡΟΣ δοῦλος καὶ ἀπόστολος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ τοῖς ἰσότιμον ἡμῖν λαχοῦσιν πίστιν ἐν δικαιοσύνῃ τοῦ θεοῦ ἡμῶν καὶ σωτῆρος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ·

Westcott and Hort / [NA27 variants]
ΣΙΜΩΝ / Συμεὼν ΠΕΤΡΟΣ δοῦλος καὶ ἀπόστολος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ τοῖς ἰσότιμον ἡμῖν λαχοῦσιν πίστιν ἐν δικαιοσύνῃ τοῦ θεοῦ ἡμῶν καὶ σωτῆρος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ·

Westcott and Hort / {NA28 variants}
ΣΙΜΩΝ / Συμεὼν ΠΕΤΡΟΣ δοῦλος καὶ ἀπόστολος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ τοῖς ἰσότιμον ἡμῖν λαχοῦσιν πίστιν ἐν δικαιοσύνῃ τοῦ θεοῦ ἡμῶν καὶ σωτῆρος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ·

2 Peter 1:1
King James Bible
Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

2 Peter 1:11
King James Bible
For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.


2 Peter 1:1
τοῦ θεοῦ ἡμῶν καὶ σωτῆρος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ

2 Peter 1:11
τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν καὶ σωτῆρος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ

2 Peter 1:1
our God and Savior, Jesus Christ

2 Peter 1:11
our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ

We have a second person possessive pronoun "Our" modifying two different improper nouns (God and Savior) joined by "and" (Kia) to identify a proper noun (Jesus) [Granville/Sharp's]. Therefore, by basic grammar, we are identifying Jesus as God and Savior. We don't even have to know the Greek to see that Jesus is being called both God and Savior/ Lord and Savior in Peters 2nd Epistle. 2 Peter 2:20 and 2 Peter 3:18 also have the same Greek construction as 1:1 and 1:11.

But for those interested in the Greek here is the comparison of 1:1 and 1:11.

τοῦ is the same.
ἡμῶν is the same.
καὶ is the same.
Σωτῆρος is the same.
Ἰησοῦ is the same.
Χριστοῦ· is the same.

And all in the same order.

The only difference is the noun "Θεοῦ" in v.1, while "Κυρίου" is in v.11.

Conclusion : So if you want to deny that Jesus is "God" ("theou") in v.1, then you have to deny that Jesus is "Lord" ("kuriou") in v.11. Otherwise YOU ARE being inconsistent and dishonest with the text. To say otherwise is proof positive one has an agenda when reading scripture and using eisegesis rather than exegesis of the biblical text in question.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Since He is referred to as the Spirit of Jesus means Jesus fully knows the hearts of all.

Jesus can know all hearts that His Father wants Him to know to accomplish his mission.
No power in Jesus is intrinsic. All powers are given, precisely because Jesus is not God.

 

[civic]

I beg to differ in the word "many" that you are using.
I think you should have said "Below is just one example of the few I can provide..."

For every verse of this kind that you could present, I could present perhaps about 20, using the same format in which Peter, Paul or John present another Being, who is not Jesus, as God. Furthermore, in several of those passages, I could present how that God who is not Jesus is called specifically "The Father".

So, my friend, the verses you are presenting are few, not many, and represent about 5% of the total of apostolic statements of the same format.
I think these verses are just wrong transcriptions/translations.
I prefer to rule out to 5% and stay with the 95%.

It doesn't matter if it's 5 times, 10 times, 20 times, 100 times. If it's 1 or more times Jesus is called God then He is God. Otherwise God is a liar, His word untrue and we have no objective truth in the Bible to base our faith upon. It's either all true or it's not. It's either reliable or its not.

 

[Fred]

Jesus can know all hearts that His Father wants Him to know

Which proves Jesus is God (1 Kings 8:39).

 

[Runningman]

the KJV is incorrect. The Greek does not say of God and our Savior.

So Jesus isn't our savior then?

are you saying in 1:11 that Lord and Savior are the same person or 2 different persons ?

Jesus is the Savior in 2 Peter 1:1 and 2 Peter 1:11, but Jesus isn't being called God in 2 Peter 1:1 because they are separated by titles.

Title 1 is God and that's the Father according to what everyone taught and title 2 is Savior for Jesus. They are separated by the conjunction "and" meaning these titles are not being conflated.

There is also the matter of context where Jesus is clearly not God, such as 2 Peter 1:2 and grammar. If Jesus was being called God here it may read something like "Our God who is Savior."