Refuting effectually caused faith

[The Rogue Tomato]

Believing in Calvinism does require one to be willing to accept totally contradictory concepts.....that all things are ORDAINED of God and yet this can be none by offering as they put it no violence to one's will. It sure would be nice to see more of them rise up and say ENOUGH is ENOUGH. I'm not going to allow anyone to do this crazy thing to my mind anymore.

Rejecting any doctrine because it may cause you to accept seemingly contradictory concepts is evidence that one believe man's understanding of truth trumps God's revelation of truth.

 

[Rockson]

Rejecting any doctrine because it may cause you to accept seemingly contradictory concepts is evidence that one believe man's understanding of truth trumps God's revelation of truth.

God does not say he creates square circles. Other things too are just as impossible to accept with a rational mind.

 

[TomL]

Believing in Calvinism does require one to be willing to accept totally contradictory concepts.....that all things are ORDAINED of God and yet this can be none by offering as they put it no violence to one's will. It sure would be nice to see more of them rise up and say ENOUGH is ENOUGH. I'm not going to allow anyone to do this crazy thing to my mind anymore.

Just blindly accept the mantras

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

God does not say he creates square circles. Other things too are just as impossible to accept with a rational mind.

"If I can't resolve it with my rational mind, it can't be true." That's man-centered thinking.

 

[Rockson]

"If I can't resolve it with my rational mind, it can't be true." That's man-centered thinking.

1 + 1 = 2 It's not 17! So is that man centered thinking to insist it has to be and must be two?

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

1 + 1 = 2 It's not 17! So is that man centered thinking to insist it has to be and must be two?

If scripture says 1+1=17, I would take it on faith that it's true. Reject scripture you don't understand. That's up to you.

 

[TomL]

If scripture says 1+1=17, I would take it on faith that it's true. Reject scripture you don't understand. That's up to you.

So why do you reject the fact scripture clearly indicates God did not determine all things

James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. 14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.

1John 2:16 For all that is in the world—the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride of life—is not from the Father but is from the world.

Jer. 32:35 They built the high places of Baal in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to offer up their sons and daughters to Molech, though I did not command them, nor did it enter into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

Is. 30:1 “Ah, stubborn children,” declares the LORD,
“who carry out a plan, but not mine,
and who make an alliance, but not of my Spirit,
that they may add sin to sin;

Gal. 5:7 You were running well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth? 8 This persuasion is not from him who calls you.

1Cor. 14:33 For God is not a God of confusion but of peace.

1Cor. 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.

Rom. 11:23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.

 

[brightfame52]

Faith is one of the rich spiritual blessings given to the heirs,

Jesus became poor in order that the heirs may become rich 2 Cor 8:9

For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.

This includes the gift of faith James 2:5

Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

Now in the greek it would read:

Hath not God chosen the poor of this world[to be] rich in faith

John Gill writes:

rich in faith; not that they were so, or were considered as such, when chosen, and so were chosen because of their faith; for then also they were, or were considered as heirs of the kingdom, which would be monstrously absurd; and yet there is as much reason, from the text, for the one, as for the other; but the sense is, that they were chosen "to be rich in faith"; and so the Syriac version supplies in the next clause, "that they might be heirs"; which if it had been placed before this clause also, would have been right; election to grace is signified in the one, and election to glory in the other: men are chosen, not because they do believe, or shall believe, but that they might believe; and which faith they have in consequence of election; and which when they have, they are rich: faith is a rich precious grace itself; it is a part of the riches of grace, and is more worth than thousands of gold and silver; and it is the means of receiving and enjoying much riches, as Christ the pearl of great price himself, and all spiritual blessings along with him; such as the rich robe of his righteousness, full pardon of sin, which is according to the riches of his grace, and adoption, which makes men heirs of God, and joint heirs with Christ, and even the eternal inheritance itself, both the promise of it, and a right unto it; all which are said to be received by faith; and therefore believers, how poor soever they may be, to this world's goods, are truly rich men:

and heirs of the kingdom; of glory, which is prepared for all the chosen ones, from the foundation of the world; and is freely given to them by their Father, and to which they are called in the effectual calling; and hence they are made kings and priests unto God, and have crowns and thrones provided for them: the Alexandrian copy reads, "heirs of the promise which he hath promised to them that love him"; that is, which God has promised them, as the Vulgate Latin and Syriac versions read; not that their love to God is the cause of this kingdom, or of their choice to it, or of the promise of it to them; all which flow from the love of God to them; but this is descriptive of the persons who shall enjoy it, and may expect to enjoy it, as in James 1:12.

Now does the natural unregenerate man dead in sin, have this rich spiritual quality of faith in and of themselves ? Or is it the product of the abounding richness of Gods Grace like Paul said 1 Tim 1:14

14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

1 + 1 = 2 It's not 17! So is that man centered thinking to insist it has to be and must be two?

OT Jews: "I can clean and cook shrimp and pork so that they're safe. They're delicious, so why should they be off limits? It's illogical, so I'm going to eat them."

NT: "I know women who are smart, educated, and good leaders. So why shouldn't they be pastors and teachers? It's illogical."

Pete Buttigieg: "I'm gay, but I'm in a monogamous loving relationship with one person. So why can't I be a married gay Christian? It's illogical. So, that's what I am"

 

[praise_yeshua]

"If I can't resolve it with my rational mind, it can't be true." That's man-centered thinking.

Like Omnipotence and Predestination?

 

[praise_yeshua]

OT Jews: "I can clean and cook shrimp and pork so that they're safe. They're delicious, so why should they be off limits? It's illogical, so I'm going to eat them."

NT: "I know women who are smart, educated, and good leaders. So why shouldn't they be pastors and teachers? It's illogical."

Pete Buttigieg: "I'm gay, but I'm in a monogamous loving relationship with one person. So why can't I be a married gay Christian? It's illogical. So, that's what I am"

Did you notice that you're using reason?

God does too...

Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
Isa 1:19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
Isa 1:20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

 

[civic]

Did you notice that you're using reason?

God does too...

Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
Isa 1:19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
Isa 1:20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

Yep

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Did you notice that you're using reason?

God does too...

Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
Isa 1:19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
Isa 1:20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

Using reason was my point. Just because something seems logical to you doesn't mean it is supported by scripture.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Using reason was my point. Just because something seems logical to you doesn't mean it is supported by scripture.

So you're using reason to propose that reason only seems logical?

I don't know how you can use reason to establish something is illogical. It is self defeating.

You're basically saying "just listen to me when God is illogical".

 

[Rockson]

If scripture says 1+1=17, I would take it on faith that it's true. Reject scripture you don't understand. That's up to you.

Well I'm glad you're willing to take by faith what God says is true. Does that include when he says in Jer 7:31 where it talks about some bad things that occurred that he never commanded it (or ordained it) and that the thought never even entered into him mind to do so?

If the answer to that is YES then good news. You're free to leave Calvinism today. So are you still willing to take what God says by FAITH?

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Well I'm glad you're willing to take by faith what God says is true. Does that include when he says in Jer 7:31 where it talks about some bad things that occurred that he never commanded it (or ordained it) and that the thought never even entered into him mind to do so?

If the answer to that is YES then good news. You're free to leave Calvinism today. So are you still willing to take what God says by FAITH?

Using man-centered reasoning:

OT Jews: "I can clean and cook shrimp and pork so that they're safe. They're delicious, so why should they be off limits? It's illogical, so I'm going to eat them."

NT: "I know women who are smart, educated, and good leaders. So why shouldn't they be pastors and teachers? It's illogical."

Pete Buttigieg: "I'm gay, but I'm in a monogamous loving relationship with one person. So why can't I be a married gay Christian? It's illogical. So, that's what I am"

If one rejects scripture's divine election and predestination based on human reasoning, then all of the above are permissible, as well.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Using man-centered reasoning:

OT Jews: "I can clean and cook shrimp and pork so that they're safe. They're delicious, so why should they be off limits? It's illogical, so I'm going to eat them."

Shrimp and pork were always safe. Logical. You're not considering all the evidence. You're simply use your FLAWED reasoning to declare it illogical.

NT: "I know women who are smart, educated, and good leaders. So why shouldn't they be pastors and teachers? It's illogical."

Deborah lead all of Israel. Timothy received his faith from his grandmother. You're not considering all the evidence. You're simply use your FLAWED reasoning to declare it illogical.

Pete Buttigieg: "I'm gay, but I'm in a monogamous loving relationship with one person. So why can't I be a married gay Christian? It's illogical. So, that's what I am"

Homosexuality in its pure form is sterile. Nothing lasting about it. Logical. You're not considering all the evidence. You're simply use your FLAWED reasoning to declare it illogical.

 

[Rockson]

Using man-centered reasoning:

OT Jews: "I can clean and cook shrimp and pork so that they're safe. They're delicious, so why should they be off limits? It's illogical, so I'm going to eat them."

NT: "I know women who are smart, educated, and good leaders. So why shouldn't they be pastors and teachers? It's illogical."

Pete Buttigieg: "I'm gay, but I'm in a monogamous loving relationship with one person. So why can't I be a married gay Christian? It's illogical. So, that's what I am"

If one rejects scripture's divine election and predestination based on human reasoning, then all of the above are permissible, as well.

I'm sorry but your statement are just silly diversions.

Now back to what you said you do or are willing to do.. Are you willing to take by faith the simple statement in Jer 7:31 where it talks about some bad things that occurred that he never commanded it (or ordained it) and that the thought never even entered into his mind to do so?

Is that a YES or a NO?

It is you who said you'd take by faith the clear thing he stated and not question it. OK then ....you're on.....demonstrate your sincerity. All you have to do is step up to the plate and acknowledge yes I see God said certain bad things he never commanded or ordained and it didn't even enter him mind to do so.

And don't run off talking now about shrimp or pork like you did in the last post. Just say what you said you'd do....TAKE BY FAITH what he said and not be willing to deny it. And remember....all it takes is ONE TIME (like we see in Jer 7:31) where God said he didn't ordain something and your whole Calvinistic philosophy collapses. How about for your sake that you just let it do so.

 

[TomL]

Using man-centered reasoning:

OT Jews: "I can clean and cook shrimp and pork so that they're safe. They're delicious, so why should they be off limits? It's illogical, so I'm going to eat them."

NT: "I know women who are smart, educated, and good leaders. So why shouldn't they be pastors and teachers? It's illogical."

Pete Buttigieg: "I'm gay, but I'm in a monogamous loving relationship with one person. So why can't I be a married gay Christian? It's illogical. So, that's what I am"

If one rejects scripture's divine election and predestination based on human reasoning, then all of the above are permissible, as well.

Um you will have to prove your doctrines by an appeal to scripture. The above rationalizations prove nothing one way or another

 

[brightfame52]

1 Jn 4:9

In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that[in order that] we might live through him.

This scripture gives us a purpose and result of God Loving His Elect and sending Christ into the world to die for them Jn 3:16 so that they might live [spiritually and by faith] through Him