Refuting effectually caused faith

[brightfame52]

Believing is causative or has been caused by the effectual working of Gods Power, the Spirit Eph 1:19

19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe according to the working of his mighty power,

 

[Rockson]

Believing is causative or has been caused by the effectual working of Gods Power, the Spirit Eph 1:19

19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe according to the working of his mighty power,

No you're cherry picking a few words and not looking at the passage. Let's look at it and not just your one verse, 19

18The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, 19And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Eph 1:18,20

The focus of the passage is not about him helping or causing you to believe but rather according to his mighty power that it was that power that provided the inheritance we have being saints (see verse 18) In verse 20 it brings out too it was not only the power that provided our inheritance but it was the some power that raised up Jesus from the dead.

 

[brightfame52]

No you're cherry picking a few words and not looking at the passage. Let's look at it and not just your one verse, 19

18The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, 19And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Eph 1:18,20

The focus of the passage is not about him helping or causing you to believe but rather according to his mighty power that it was that power that provided the inheritance we have being saints (see verse 18) In verse 20 it brings out too it was not only the power that provided our inheritance but it was the some power that raised up Jesus from the dead.

Charge of cherry picking is lodged when one wants to deny the Truth thats right before them

 

[Johann]

No you're cherry picking a few words and not looking at the passage. Let's look at it and not just your one verse, 19

18The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, 19And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Eph 1:18,20

The focus of the passage is not about him helping or causing you to believe but rather according to his mighty power that it was that power that provided the inheritance we have being saints (see verse 18) In verse 20 it brings out too it was not only the power that provided our inheritance but it was the some power that raised up Jesus from the dead.

So you are making @brightfame52 case-right?


Ephesians 1:18-20 (KJV)
"The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,"
Key Points of the Passage
Illumination and Knowledge:

Paul prays for the believers' eyes of understanding to be enlightened so that they may know three things:
The hope of God's calling.
The riches of the glory of God's inheritance in the saints.
The exceeding greatness of God's power toward believers.
God's Mighty Power:

The emphasis is on the "exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe."
This power is described as the same power that:
Raised Jesus from the dead.
Seated Him at the right hand of God in the heavenly places.
Interpretation
Not About Causing Belief:

The passage does not primarily focus on God causing or helping people to believe.
Instead, it highlights the power of God that believers experience and the transformative effect of that power.
Provision of Inheritance:

The power of God is linked to the inheritance believers have as saints (verse 18).
This inheritance is part of the hope and riches that come with God's calling.
Resurrection Power:

The same mighty power that provided the inheritance for believers is the power that raised Jesus from the dead (verse 20).
This underscores the magnitude and effectiveness of God's power, both in raising Christ and in working within believers.

Question: Why would Paul pray for believers that their eyes of understanding to be enlightened?
Seems that not all believers "eyes of understanding" HAS been enlightened--


Eph 1:15 Because of this, I also, having heard of the faith in the Lord Jesus among you, and the love toward all the saints,
Eph 1:16 do not cease giving thanks for you, making mention in my prayers,
Eph 1:17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him,
Eph 1:18 the eyes your of heart being enlightened, in order for you to know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,
Eph 1:19 and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us believing according to the working of the power of His might,
Eph 1:20 which He worked in Christ, having raised Him out from the dead, and having set Him at His right hand in the heavenly realms,
Eph 1:21 above every principality and authority and power and dominion, and every name being named, not only in this age, but also in the one coming.
Eph 1:22 And He put all things under His feet and gave Him to be head over all things to the church,
Eph 1:23 which is His body, the fullness of the One filling all in all.

Johann.

 

[brightfame52]

@Johann

The power of God is linked to the inheritance believers have as saints (verse 18).
This inheritance is part of the hope and riches that come with God's calling.
Resurrection Power:

Faith is part of the Spiritual inheritance/lot of the spiritual seed, thats why Peter wrote 2 Pet 1:1

Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

The word obtained here is an inheritance, allotment word,its lagchanō:
to obtain by lot

1. to receive by divine allotment, obtain

Its the Faith given to all the elect as even to the Apostles save judas of course.

 

[civic]

So you are making @brightfame52 case-right?


Ephesians 1:18-20 (KJV)
"The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,"
Key Points of the Passage
Illumination and Knowledge:

Paul prays for the believers' eyes of understanding to be enlightened so that they may know three things:
The hope of God's calling.
The riches of the glory of God's inheritance in the saints.
The exceeding greatness of God's power toward believers.
God's Mighty Power:

The emphasis is on the "exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe."
This power is described as the same power that:
Raised Jesus from the dead.
Seated Him at the right hand of God in the heavenly places.
Interpretation
Not About Causing Belief:

The passage does not primarily focus on God causing or helping people to believe.
Instead, it highlights the power of God that believers experience and the transformative effect of that power.
Provision of Inheritance:

The power of God is linked to the inheritance believers have as saints (verse 18).
This inheritance is part of the hope and riches that come with God's calling.
Resurrection Power:

The same mighty power that provided the inheritance for believers is the power that raised Jesus from the dead (verse 20).
This underscores the magnitude and effectiveness of God's power, both in raising Christ and in working within believers.

Question: Why would Paul pray for believers that their eyes of understanding to be enlightened?
Seems that not all believers "eyes of understanding" HAS been enlightened--


Eph 1:15 Because of this, I also, having heard of the faith in the Lord Jesus among you, and the love toward all the saints,
Eph 1:16 do not cease giving thanks for you, making mention in my prayers,
Eph 1:17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him,
Eph 1:18 the eyes your of heart being enlightened, in order for you to know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,
Eph 1:19 and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us believing according to the working of the power of His might,
Eph 1:20 which He worked in Christ, having raised Him out from the dead, and having set Him at His right hand in the heavenly realms,
Eph 1:21 above every principality and authority and power and dominion, and every name being named, not only in this age, but also in the one coming.
Eph 1:22 And He put all things under His feet and gave Him to be head over all things to the church,
Eph 1:23 which is His body, the fullness of the One filling all in all.

Johann.

So when did you convert over to Calvinism ?

You have been affirming all of the Calvinists lately and opposing all the non Calvinists.

 

[Rockson]

Charge of cherry picking is lodged when one wants to deny the Truth thats right before them

Sorry but you set aside the passage in which this verse was found.

 

[brightfame52]

Sorry but you set aside the passage in which this verse was found.

Charge of cherry picking is lodged when one wants to deny the Truth thats right before them

 

[brightfame52]

That Faith in Christ is supernaturally caused is seen when we read how the Apostles Thanked God for it when they heard people had it Col 1:3-6

3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,

4 Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints,

5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:

The Apostles knew that Faith in Christ was and is Gods mighty work of Grace in them causing it.

 

[brightfame52]

Paul goes on Thanking God for those whose Faith is growing, which he says is befitting 1 Thess 2:3

3 We are bound[required] to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;

Paul says its required, bound to Thank God for this growth[increased] of Faith. for they realized they're indebted to His Mercy and Grace for its growth as well as its cause.

 

[Johann]

3 We are bound[required] to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;

Paul says its required, bound to Thank God for this growth[increased] of Faith. for they realized they're indebted to His Mercy and Grace for its growth as well as its cause.

Context (2 Thessalonians 1:1-4):
Greeting and Thanksgiving (Verses 1-3):

Paul, Silas, and Timothy, to the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:
Grace and peace to you from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
We ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters, and rightly so, because your faith is growing more and more, and the love all of you have for one another is increasing.
Boasting of Their Perseverance (Verse 4):

Therefore, among God’s churches we boast about your perseverance and faith in all the persecutions and trials you are enduring.
Explanation of 2 Thessalonians 1:3:
"We are bound to thank God always for you": Paul expresses a sense of obligation ("bound") to thank God continually for the Thessalonian believers.
"As it is meet": It is fitting and appropriate to give thanks.
"Because that your faith groweth exceedingly": The Thessalonians' faith is growing abundantly.

"And the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth": Their love for one another is increasing.

Addressing the Statement and Question:
Statement: "Paul says it’s required, bound to thank God for this growth [increased] of Faith. for they realized they're indebted to His Mercy and Grace for its growth as well as its cause."





Obligation to Thank God: Paul indeed feels an obligation ("bound") to thank God for the Thessalonians' growth in faith and love. This suggests that such growth is not just a natural outcome of their efforts but is attributed to God's grace and mercy at work in them.

Indebted to God's Mercy and Grace:

The growth in faith and love among the Thessalonians is seen as a result of God's merciful and gracious action. Paul often attributes spiritual growth and faith to God's work rather than merely human effort (cf. Philippians 2:13, "for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose").

Paul’s thanksgiving acknowledges that it is God who enables and sustains the growth of faith and love among believers. Hence, the Thessalonians, like all believers, are indebted to God's mercy and grace for their spiritual progress.


Supporting Scripture References:
Philippians 1:6: "Being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus."
1 Corinthians 3:6-7: "I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God has been making it grow. So neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow."


Ephesians 2:8-9: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast."


In summary, Paul’s sense of obligation to thank God for the Thessalonians' growing faith and love underscores the belief that such growth is ultimately a result of God's merciful and gracious work in their lives. This aligns with the broader biblical teaching that spiritual growth and transformation are gifts from God, for which believers should be deeply grateful.

 

[brightfame52]

Paul once again expressed and was obligated to Thank God for them God had chosen putting Faith in Christ or belief of the Truth, to the same people as in the first epistle 2 Thess 2:13-14

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Note: belief here is the greek noun for faith pistis, usually translated faith 239x in the NT

14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

This Faith in the Truth is attributed to the supernatural work of God the Holy Spirit by means of His Sanctifying power, also this passage shows us who it is that God calls by the Gospel to Faith in Christ, those whom God has chosen to Salvation from the beginning and who have been sanctified by the Spirit.

 

[Johann]

Paul once again expressed and was obligated to Thank God for them God had chosen putting Faith in Christ or belief of the Truth, to the same people as in the first epistle 2 Thess 2:13-14

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Note: belief here is the greek noun for faith pistis, usually translated faith 239x in the NT

14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

This Faith in the Truth is attributed to the supernatural work of God the Holy Spirit by means of His Sanctifying power, also this passage shows us who it is that God calls by the Gospel to Faith in Christ, those whom God has chosen to Salvation from the beginning and who have been sanctified by the Spirit.

Interpretation of the Passage:

The passage emphasizes the believers' gratitude to God for their salvation, attributing it to God's choice from the beginning.
The mention of "sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" suggests that the Holy Spirit plays a crucial role in sanctifying believers and leading them to faith in the truth, which includes faith in Christ.
Theological Interpretation:

Some theological perspectives interpret this passage as highlighting the sovereign work of God in salvation. According to this view, God chooses individuals for salvation from the beginning, and this choice is enacted through the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit.
This interpretation emphasizes the monergistic nature of salvation, meaning that it is entirely the work of God, including the regeneration of the believer's heart and the granting of faith.
Key Points:

God's Choice: The passage underscores that salvation is ultimately God's choice and initiative. Believers are chosen by God for salvation.
Role of the Spirit: The Holy Spirit plays a vital role in the sanctification of believers and in leading them to faith in Christ.
Response of Believers: While God's choice and the work of the Spirit are emphasized, believers are still called to respond in faith to the gospel message.
Alternate Interpretations:

It's essential to recognize that interpretations of passages related to election and salvation can vary among different theological traditions. Some may emphasize human responsibility and free will more prominently, while others may emphasize God's sovereignty in salvation to a greater extent.
In summary, the interpretation provided aligns with a theological perspective that emphasizes God's sovereign choice in salvation and the role of the Holy Spirit in sanctification and leading believers to faith. However, it's crucial to acknowledge that alternate interpretations exist, reflecting different theological traditions and perspectives on these doctrinal matters.

 

[brightfame52]

@Johann

God's Choice: The passage underscores that salvation is ultimately God's choice and initiative. Believers are chosen by God for salvation.
Role of the Spirit: The Holy Spirit plays a vital role in the sanctification of believers and in leading them to faith in Christ.
Response of Believers: While God's choice and the work of the Spirit are emphasized, believers are still called to respond in faith to the gospel message.

Now this interpretation goes astray by saying the person is called to respond, thats untrue, this shows that the Spirits work effectually causes belief in the Truth, there is no emphasis on what a person is required to do, but what he is caused to do Ezk 36:27

27 And I will put my spirit within you[sanctification of the Spirit], and cause you to walk in my statutes[belief in the truth], and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

 

[Johann]

@Johann



Now this interpretation goes astray by saying the person is called to respond, thats untrue, this shows that the Spirits work effectually causes belief in the Truth, there is no emphasis on what a person is required to do, but what he is caused to do Ezk 36:27

27 And I will put my spirit within you[sanctification of the Spirit], and cause you to walk in my statutes[belief in the truth], and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

yes-and I can show you MANY Scriptures human volition is also involved.
John 3:16 (NIV):

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
Commentary: This verse emphasizes the centrality of belief in Jesus for obtaining eternal life. The word "believes" (πιστεύων, pisteuōn) in Greek indicates an ongoing action of faith and trust in Jesus.
Acts 16:31 (NIV):

"They replied, 'Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.'"
Commentary: The instruction to "believe in the Lord Jesus" underscores the necessity of personal faith in Jesus for salvation. The word "believe" (πιστεύσῃς, pisteusēs) is in the aorist subjunctive, indicating a decisive act of faith.
John 6:29 (NIV):

"Jesus answered, 'The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.'"
Commentary: Jesus Himself emphasizes that the primary "work" or requirement of God is belief in Him. The word "believe" (πιστεύσητε, pisteusēte) is in the aorist subjunctive, indicating a decisive act of faith.
Romans 10:9 (NIV):

"If you declare with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."
Commentary: This verse highlights the importance of both confession with the mouth and belief in the heart. The word "believe" (πιστεύῃς, pisteuēs) is in the present subjunctive, indicating ongoing faith and trust in Jesus.
Ephesians 2:8-9 (NIV):

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast."
Commentary: Salvation is emphasized as a gift of God received through faith. The word "faith" (πίστεως, pisteōs) denotes belief, trust, and confidence in Jesus.

In summary, these passages highlight the importance of personal faith and trust in Jesus for salvation. The Greek words for "believe" (πιστεύων, πιστεύσῃς, πιστεύσητε, πιστεύῃς, πίστεως) emphasize ongoing faith, trust, and confidence in Jesus as the Son of God and Savior.

However-having said that--


Prevenient Grace:

Before regeneration occurs, there's often the recognition of prevenient grace. This grace is seen as God's initiative to draw individuals towards Himself, awakening within them a sense of need for salvation and predisposing them to respond to the Gospel message.
Faith:

The individual responds to the prompting of prevenient grace by exercising faith in Jesus Christ. This faith involves trust, belief, and commitment to Jesus as Savior and Lord. It's through faith that the individual appropriates the benefits of Christ's atoning work and enters into a relationship with God.
Regeneration:

Regeneration, or being "born again," is understood as a sovereign work of the Holy Spirit. It involves the spiritual transformation of the individual, imparting new life and spiritual vitality. Regeneration is often seen as preceding faith logically, as it's through regeneration that the individual gains the ability to respond in faith.
Justification:

Justification is the legal act of God by which He declares the believing sinner righteous on the basis of Christ's righteousness imputed to them. It occurs simultaneously with faith and is grounded in Christ's atoning sacrifice.
Adoption:

Adoption is the act of God by which believers are welcomed into His family as His children. It follows justification and is a consequence of being united with Christ through faith. Believers receive the full rights and privileges of sonship, including inheritance and intimate relationship with God as Father.
Sanctification:

Sanctification is the ongoing process by which believers are progressively conformed to the image of Christ. It involves the work of the Holy Spirit in the believer's life, transforming their character, attitudes, and behavior to reflect Christ-likeness.
This sequence highlights the various aspects of the believer's journey of salvation, with regeneration being the initial act of God that enables faith and precedes the believer's justification, adoption, and ongoing sanctification.

I don't deny our born from above experience was an act wholly from God our Father.

In fact-at this point in my life it matters little WHAT preceded WHAT since there are disagreements even among synergism and

Monergism and Calvinism-I just go by my experience when I was a young lad.​

 

[brightfame52]

@Johann

yes-and I can show you MANY Scriptures human volition is also involved.
John 3:16 (NIV):

Thats not denied, however its the volition of the new creature, the fruit of, born of the Spirit. This is after regeneration Ezk 36:27

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

The one who believes is already saved #1 by the blood of Christ, and #2 by the regeneration of the Spirit, believing makes it evident. Youdont agree with that ?

 

[Johann]

@Johann



Thats not denied, however its the volition of the new creature, the fruit of, born of the Spirit. This is after regeneration Ezk 36:27

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

The one who believes is already saved #1 by the blood of Christ, and #2 by the regeneration of the Spirit, believing makes it evident. Youdont agree with that ?

I have no problem with this-Like have said-at this point in my life I really don't care as to what precedes what.


Saved by the Blood of Christ:

Cross-Reference 1: Ephesians 1:7 (NIV) - "In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace."

Cross-Reference 2: Romans 5:9 (NIV) - "Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!"
Saved by the Regeneration of the Spirit:

Cross-Reference 1: Titus 3:5-6 (NIV) - "He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior."

Cross-Reference 2: John 3:5-6 (NIV) - "Jesus answered, 'Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit."
Believing Makes it Evident:

Cross-Reference 1: James 2:17-18 (NIV) - "In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. But someone will say, 'You have faith; I have deeds.' Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds."

Cross-Reference 2: 1 John 2:3-6 (NIV) - "We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. Whoever says, 'I know him,' but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did."

Point is-do we live like Christians?

 

[civic]

Monergism - God saves
Synergism- God saves the person who believes of their own volition

 

[brightfame52]

@Johann

Point is-do we live like Christians?

Thats determined by if you believe and live by the Truth of the Gospel first and foremost. Many can live a good moral life of good works and charity and belong to a cult. Good works are tricky because satan can easily counterfeit them, but he cant do that with the Doctrine of Christ, so its first the Doctrine of Christ 2 Jn 1 9

Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

Transgressing the True doctrine of Christ, no matter how much you go by James 217-18its only evil deeds

 

[TomL]

@Johann



Thats not denied, however its the volition of the new creature, the fruit of, born of the Spirit. This is after regeneration Ezk 36:27

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

The one who believes is already saved #1 by the blood of Christ, and #2 by the regeneration of the Spirit, believing makes it evident. Youdont agree with that ?

Um saving faith is not a fruit of the Spirit