Still notes the saved person has God working in him to good works
Does nothing at all to speak of the source of saving faith
Refuting effectually caused faith
- Thread starter TomL
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Does nothing at all to speak of the source of saving faith
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
The words "of Him we are workmanship, created in Christ Jesus" tells you the source.
Johann
Well-known member
The Lexham bible is also a good translation-
Eph 2:10 For we are his creation, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, so that we may walk in them.
αυτου γαρ εσμεν ποιημα κτισθεντες εν χριστω ιησου επι εργοις αγαθοις οις προητοιμασεν ο θεος ινα εν αυτοις περιπατησωμεν
ποίημα
Transliteration: poiēma
Morphology: N-NNS
Noun - Nominative Neuter Singular
Strong's no.: G4161 (ποίημα)
Meaning: A thing made, a work, workmanship.
Transliteration: ktisthentes
Morphology: V-APP-NMP
Verb - Aorist Participle Passive - Nominative Masculine Plural
Strong's no.: G2936 (κτίζω)
Meaning: To create, form, shape, make, always of God.
Still speaks of the good works of the saved not the source of his faith
and you still fail to address the arguments
Verse 9 is still is left unaddressed as was my other argument
if faith is a gift from God, how could demonic activity restrict the faith of some (Luke 8:12; 2 Cor 4:4)? Why is it harder for some people to believe than others (cf. Titus 1:12-13)? What would be the point of the drawing work of the Holy Spirit (John 6:44; 12:32), or of evangelism and missions? Why was Jesus sometimes amazed at people’s lack of faith (Matt 8:26; 14:31; 16:8)? None of these questions have good answers if faith is a gift of God.
verse 9 makes sense if salvation is the gift and no sense if the gift is faith
Ephesians 2:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
No one argues faith is the results of works done
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praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Yep. Workmanship created IN CHRIST.
Would you mind spending some time detail the grammatical construct of this statement?
You'll find that it is not the work of God in you but Christ. Conformity demands it. After all, you're a sinner. Christ isn't.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Created in Christ Jesus. Who does the creating? We are not created in Christ Jesus by faith that originates in us.
One is in Christ through faith
Ephesians 1:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Is that what it says. That is certainly what you said. I quoted it.
God does. However, you resist. You are flesh. As such, you can not please God. Christ doesn't resist.
Again. Conformity to Christ is the goal and you're not meeting that goal because you are not willing. I'm not either.
Again. Faith has no power. It is trust in another (Jesus Christ). He is the power source.
The source of good works not saving faith
The reference is to the new creation one is made in Christ through faith
Ephesians 1:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
2 Corinthians 5:17 (KJV 1900) — 17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
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Johann
Well-known member
I have already answered-so you believe the TRT is not reliable?
Johann
Well-known member
It is not two concepts-faith and works-they are one.
When two concepts are closely associated and one is used to represent the other, it is often referred to as a synecdoche. A synecdoche is a figure of speech in which a part is used to represent the whole or vice versa. For example:
"All hands on deck." Here, "hands" represent the entire crew of people on a ship.
"The White House issued a statement." In this case, "the White House" refers to the President or the administration as a whole.
"Give us this day our daily bread." In the Lord's Prayer, "bread" represents all of our daily needs, not just literal bread.
So, while the term "synecdoche" is often used in literary and linguistic contexts, it can also be applied when discussing concepts or ideas that are closely linked and one is used to represent the other.
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The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
For we are his creation, created in Christ Jesus for good works
Why are we created in Christ Jesus?
For we are his creation, created in Christ Jesus for good works
That doesn't change the fact that we are His creation, created in Christ Jesus.
I don't want to change it.
What do you not understand?
This speaks of the new creation in Christ which one becomes through faith
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
We are His creation, created in Christ Jesus. That's how we become a new creation in Christ.
Sorry no
They are not one concept in Paul
Romans 4:1–16 (KJV 1900) — 1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Paul clearly contradicts them
and you are now contradicting yourself
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. 9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. 13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: 15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. 16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
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Again
I don't want to change it.
What do you not understand?
This speaks of the new creation in Christ which one becomes through faith
One becomes in Christ through faith
Ephesians 1:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
and if in Christ a new creation
2 Corinthians 5:17 (KJV 1900) — 17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
civic
Well-known member
Johann
Well-known member
We are either "In" or "out" right brother-don't forget to mention the sadly neglected Holy Spirit and His work in our lives-what a Mighty God we serve in Christ Jesus our Lord and sealed with the Holy Spirit.
rejoice in the Lord always and again-rejoice!
Johann
Well-known member
No-you are not reading-it was the other verse, the other verse--on the other side
When two concepts are closely associated and one is used to represent the other, it is often referred to as a synecdoche. A synecdoche is a figure of speech in which a part is used to represent the whole or vice versa. For example:
"All hands on deck." Here, "hands" represent the entire crew of people on a ship.
"The White House issued a statement." In this case, "the White House" refers to the President or the administration as a whole.
"Give us this day our daily bread." In the Lord's Prayer, "bread" represents all of our daily needs, not just literal bread.
So, while the term "synecdoche" is often used in literary and linguistic contexts, it can also be applied when discussing concepts or ideas that are closely linked and one is used to represent the other.
No need to get frustrated-I know that emotional feeling so let's steady this ol' ship and allow the Holy Spirit to take over-that would be much, much better.
Who knows-something good might come out of all of this-God willing.
You are still stuck with Paul contrasting faith and works
and this is what you replied to
stating
It is not two concepts-faith and works-they are one.
Faith is an
