The holy Spirit regenerates those that believe on Christ making them a new creation
Refuting effectually caused faith
- Thread starter TomL
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The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
The Holy Spirit enables one to believe on Christ, making them a new creation.
5 Jesus answered, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born of water, and the Spirit, he is not able to enter into the reign of God; 6 that which hath been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which hath been born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 `Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above; 8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.'
Johann
Well-known member
Yep-they are like hands and feet. Now all you need to do is put on your thinking cap-
When two concepts are closely associated and one is used to represent the other, it is often referred to as a synecdoche. A synecdoche is a figure of speech in which a part is used to represent the whole or vice versa. For example:
"All hands on deck." Here, "hands" represent the entire crew of people on a ship.
"The White House issued a statement." In this case, "the White House" refers to the President or the administration as a whole.
"Give us this day our daily bread." In the Lord's Prayer, "bread" represents all of our daily needs, not just literal bread.
So, while the term "synecdoche" is often used in literary and linguistic contexts, it can also be applied when discussing concepts or ideas that are closely linked and one is used to represent the other.
See @TomL? Not being facetious with you, no pride, no arrogance, nada, zip. Like I've "zed leplin"-all we need is to let go of the reigns and allow the Holy Spirit to take over-man, the flesh always wants to have it's way-yes?
Love you man!
Johann
Well-known member
Absolutely correct there brother!
Johann
Well-known member
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Prayer.
Johann
Well-known member
Always.
civic
Well-known member
Nope see Jesus teach below on The new birth and the gospel.
Born of Water John 3
John 3:1-7. Lets look at the context of Jesus interaction with Nicodemus. All human beings have experienced natural birth on earth, if they expect to go to heaven, they must experience a supernatural spiritual birth from above. Nicodemus was a well educated religious leader who did not understand what the Saviour was talking about. Jesus was speaking about a spiritual birth, but Nicodemus thought of a physical birth.
The situation is no different today When you talk with people about being born again, they often begin to discuss their family's religious heritage, their church membership, religious ceremonies like baptism etc....Jesus being a patient teacher picked up on Nicodemus' words and further explained the new birth. To be "born of water" is to be born physically ("enter a second time into his mother's womb") but to be born again means to be born of the Spirit. Just as there are two parents for physical birth, so there are two for spiritual birth: the Spirit of God (John 3:5) and the Word of God (James 1:18; 1 Peter 1:23-25). The Spirit of God takes the Word of God and, when the sinner believes, imparts the life of God.Jesus was not teaching that the new birth comes through water baptism. In the NT baptism is connected with death, not birth and no amount of physical water can cause a spiritual change in a person.
The emphasis in John 3:14-21 is on believing, because salvation comes through faith. John 1:12-13 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
Understanding Jesus teaching in John 3 on Born Again !
John 3:3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”
4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”
9 “How can this be?” Nicodemus asked
10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things?
So lets go through this point by point.
1- to enter the kingdom of God a person must be born again( a 2nd time)
2- flesh gives birth to flesh ( 1st birth )
3- the Spirit gives birth to spirit( 2nd birth )
4- the wind(spirit) blows wherever IT pleases
5- we hear the sound of the wind but do not know where it is coming from or going to
6- the same with the Spirit( we see its effects but not its coming or going)
7- the spirit is the same as the wind- it does as it pleases and we see its effects in both the natural(wind) and supernatural ( spirit)
8- God causes us to be born again
9- the new birth is compared to the physical birth just as the wind is compared to the spirits work
10- in the new birth God is the Active One and the one who causes the birth but we must believe to be saved, regenerated.
There can be no other reading into the text but what has been outlined in the 10 points. Those 10 points are directly from the text.
Now The PARALLELS and CONTRASTS Jesus makes in the passage are the following 10 by reading through and observing the passage :
1- the 2 births
2- the wind and the spirit
3- flesh and the spirit
4- water and spirit
5- earthly and heavenly things
6- effects of both the wind and spirit
7- the seen with the unseen
8- the physical with the supernatural
9- knowing and not knowing, understanding and not understanding
10- entering the kingdom and not entering the kingdom, believing and not believing
A few more scriptures on the topic of this discussion - the new birth, born again, regeneration
1 Peter 1:3
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1 Peter 1:23
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.
James 1:18
He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we would be a kind of firstfruits of His creation.
Titus 3:5
He saved us, not by the righteous deeds we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of new birth and renewal by the Holy Spirit
John 1:12-13
Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believe in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God
summary- just as flesh gives birth to flesh( 1st birth as a person) so to does the Spirit give birth to the spirit(the new birth- born again, regeneration )
Ezekiel 18 declares : “a NEW SPIRIT I WILL (future) put WITHIN them…” These predictions mean that even Ezekiel was not regenerated, nor was any man prior to Ezekiel. And Ezekiel lived near the end of the OT time period. Scripture talks about 2 kinds of life. Physical and Spiritual. What other “kind of life” does the Bible talk about other than the life we are given in the flesh when we are born of the flesh, and eternal life which we are given when we are born of the Spirit? There is no other “kind of life” taught about in the Bible. When a man is born of the eternal Spirit, by the eternal Word of God, he is given eternal life. A man is regenerated when He is made alive with Jesus Christ (Eph. 2:5). Can a man be “made alive with Jesus Christ” apart from having Jesus Christ dwelling in him? Also, Paul explicitly states, “You are not in the flesh but in the Spirit IF THE SPIRIT OF GOD DWELL IN YOU. And if any man HAVE NOT THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST HE IS NONE OF HIS.” (Rom. 8:9). We are born again THROUGH THE RESURRECTION OF JESUS CHRIST FROM THE DEAD (1Peter 1:3). Can a man be born again through the resurrection of Jesus Christ before Jesus Christ actually rose again from the dead? No so Jesus in John 3 was not talking about spiritual life in the OT but the promise of the Spirit that would come at Pentecost when His spirit would be poured out upon all who believe in Him and become born again children of God from the preaching of the gospel and receiving Him as Lord.
hope this helps !!!
Johann
Well-known member
Let William answer--
So is faith “supernaturally given by the Holy Spirit?” That’s difficult to say. Clearly, Scripture speaks of faith (pistis) as one of the many “fruit of the Spirit” (Galatians 5.22). But pistis here probably does not refer to saving faith but to a Christian virtue and may even mean faithfulness. Ephesians 2.8-9 might seem more relevant to saving faith: “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God—not because of works, lest any man should boast.” But since touto (this) is neuter and pistis (faith) is feminine, the antecedent of “this” cannot be “faith;” rather it is the process or arrangement of salvation-by-grace-through-faith that is the gift of God.
Since we should not think, with our Reformed brethren, that saving faith is the result of unilateral divine determinism, the act of saving faith must involve the free response of the human will to the Holy Spirit’s conviction and drawing. This understanding does not make saving faith a work that we perform, as our Reformed brethren allege. As I emphasize in my Defenders lectures on Doctrine of Salvation, Paul consistently opposes faith to works; he does not think of faith as a kind of meritorious work.
The Christian philosopher Eleanore Stump has given a good account of the relationship between human free will and the work of the Holy Spirit in producing saving faith. On her account faith is not even a positive act of our will to accept God’s grace in response to the convicting and drawing of the Holy Spirit. Rather it is the purely negative act of ceasing to resist the Holy Spirit and so allowing Him to produce saving faith in our hearts. On this view saving faith is wrought by God, a gift of the Holy Spirit, but it is not something that overrides human free will.
So I think that we can take faith to be something that is supernaturally given by the Holy Spirit without falling into the clutches of the Charybdis of universalism or of the Scylla of a less than all-loving God.
- William Lane Craig
But of course-you are going to disagree-ne?
Go online, type in Google search and see for yourself what is going on.
When you post something please tag me, especially if you are referring to me-with all Caps out-OK?
civic
Well-known member
Continued and notice how consistent scripture above is with these .
Notice what comes first in scripture - the order of how one becomes saved.
1- Repent , turn away from sin
2- the after you repent you get a new heart/spirit ,regeneration, new life, born again etc....
3- repent then you live, have life- ie new heart, spirit.
John below the same order in in his opening of the gospel and in his purpose statement for writing his gospel.
John 1:12-13
“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
Same order as above receive, believe, call on Him then the new birth follows.
John 20:31
“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
Once again the order is consistent with the OT- belief/repentance precedes life.
Romans 10:8-13
But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Again above we see its hearing the gospel, believing the message , confessing then calling upon the Lord results in salvation.
Acts tells us the same order in 11:18- "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.” Repent precedes life.
Paul confirms the order in Ephesians below as well. Hearing and believing precedes the Holy Spirit that we were sealed with not before belief.
Ephesians 1:13
“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit
conclusion: as we read in these SALVIFIC passages there is a consistent order.
1- hearing the word, the gospel
2- believing the gospel
3- receiving the gospel
4- calling upon the Lord
5- confessing Jesus is Lord
6- resulting in the new birth, born of God, salvation, eternal life, regeneration, born again
hope this helps !!!
Notice what comes first in scripture - the order of how one becomes saved.
1- Repent , turn away from sin
2- the after you repent you get a new heart/spirit ,regeneration, new life, born again etc....
3- repent then you live, have life- ie new heart, spirit.
John below the same order in in his opening of the gospel and in his purpose statement for writing his gospel.
John 1:12-13
“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
Same order as above receive, believe, call on Him then the new birth follows.
John 20:31
“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
Once again the order is consistent with the OT- belief/repentance precedes life.
Romans 10:8-13
But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Again above we see its hearing the gospel, believing the message , confessing then calling upon the Lord results in salvation.
Acts tells us the same order in 11:18- "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.” Repent precedes life.
Paul confirms the order in Ephesians below as well. Hearing and believing precedes the Holy Spirit that we were sealed with not before belief.
Ephesians 1:13
“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit
conclusion: as we read in these SALVIFIC passages there is a consistent order.
1- hearing the word, the gospel
2- believing the gospel
3- receiving the gospel
4- calling upon the Lord
5- confessing Jesus is Lord
6- resulting in the new birth, born of God, salvation, eternal life, regeneration, born again
hope this helps !!!
Johann
Well-known member
Yes-see the Scriptures. The Holy Spirit definitely involved.
The concept of the Holy Spirit as the agent of regeneration is predominantly found in the New Testament, particularly in the teachings of Jesus and the writings of the apostles. While the Old Testament does not explicitly use the language of regeneration as the New Testament does, there are passages that hint at the work of the Holy Spirit in transforming hearts and renewing individuals. Here are some references from both the Old and New Testaments that suggest the role of the Holy Spirit in regeneration:
Old Testament:
Ezekiel 36:25-27 (NIV): "I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws." This passage speaks of God's promise to cleanse and renew His people, putting His Spirit within them to enable obedience.
Psalm 51:10-12 (NIV): "Create in me a pure heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me. Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me. Restore to me the joy of your salvation and grant me a willing spirit, to sustain me." Here, the psalmist prays for God's renewal and restoration, including a plea for the presence of the Holy Spirit.
New Testament:
John 3:5-6 (NIV): "Jesus answered, 'Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.'" Jesus speaks to Nicodemus about the necessity of being born again, indicating the role of the Spirit in this spiritual rebirth.
Titus 3:5-6 (NIV): "He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior." This passage speaks of the renewal and regeneration brought about by the Holy Spirit through the work of Jesus Christ.
1 Peter 1:3 (NIV): "Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead." Here, new birth is attributed to God's mercy and the resurrection of Jesus Christ, suggesting the work of the Holy Spirit in regeneration.
Acts 2:38 (NIV): "Peter replied, 'Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.'" This verse links repentance, baptism, and the gift of the Holy Spirit, indicating the Spirit's role in the conversion and regeneration of believers.
John 16:8-11 (NIV): "When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: about sin, because people do not believe in me; about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned." Jesus speaks of the Holy Spirit convicting the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment, suggesting a role in bringing about repentance and regeneration.
These passages from both the Old and New Testaments suggest the role of the Holy Spirit in regeneration, renewing hearts, and bringing about spiritual transformation in individuals.
Great post from your end-but I would stand on what stands written.
You?
You quoted William lane Craig, and he did not support the Calvinist position which TRT advocates''
And of course this was not addressed
If faith is a gift from God, how could demonic activity restrict the faith of some (Luke 8:12; 2 Cor 4:4)? Why is it harder for some people to believe than others (cf. Titus 1:12-13)? What would be the point of the drawing work of the Holy Spirit (John 6:44; 12:32), or of evangelism and missions? Why was Jesus sometimes amazed at people’s lack of faith (Matt 8:26; 14:31; 16:8)? None of these questions have good answers if faith is a gift of God.
Enables or effectually causes?
Which one?
The Calvinist position is that God effectually causes faith
BTW that passage does not mention how faith arises
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brightfame52
Well-known member
Faith to believe in Christ/God is one of the results /purposes of the resurrection of Christ !
Proud religious men constantly deem salvation Faith in Christ a result of mans freewill, the natural man at that ! This is gross error and disregard for the Power of God, and the Gift of God which produces Faith in the Elect of God, hence why its called the Faith of Gods Elect Titus 1:1
Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
Several scriptures instruct us the Faith is the result of the power of God, for instance one is in Eph 1:19-20
And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
Now Peter writes of this same Truth here 1 Pet 1:20-21
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 21Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
When Christ was raised from the dead, God gave Him Glory ! Why ? SO THAT your Faith and Hope might be in God !
Now understand what Peter is saying , and saying it to. Hes saying , when Christ was raised from the dead, God the Father gave Him Glory so that , the word that in the greek is the conjunction hóste which means:
so that, therefore, so then, so as to.
a conjunction, derived from 5613 /hōs, "as" and 5037 /té, "both-and") – wherefore (with the result that both . . . ), connecting cause to necessary effect which emphasizes the result (the combined, end-accomplishment). The result involved then is the combination of both elements in the correlation, underscoring the inevitable effect of the paired elements.
So God raised Him Christ from the dead, gave Him Glory, so that the result and effect would be their Faith and Hope in God !
And Hes saying it to the Elect 1 Pet 1:2
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Proud religious men constantly deem salvation Faith in Christ a result of mans freewill, the natural man at that ! This is gross error and disregard for the Power of God, and the Gift of God which produces Faith in the Elect of God, hence why its called the Faith of Gods Elect Titus 1:1
Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
Several scriptures instruct us the Faith is the result of the power of God, for instance one is in Eph 1:19-20
And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
Now Peter writes of this same Truth here 1 Pet 1:20-21
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 21Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
When Christ was raised from the dead, God gave Him Glory ! Why ? SO THAT your Faith and Hope might be in God !
Now understand what Peter is saying , and saying it to. Hes saying , when Christ was raised from the dead, God the Father gave Him Glory so that , the word that in the greek is the conjunction hóste which means:
so that, therefore, so then, so as to.
a conjunction, derived from 5613 /hōs, "as" and 5037 /té, "both-and") – wherefore (with the result that both . . . ), connecting cause to necessary effect which emphasizes the result (the combined, end-accomplishment). The result involved then is the combination of both elements in the correlation, underscoring the inevitable effect of the paired elements.
So God raised Him Christ from the dead, gave Him Glory, so that the result and effect would be their Faith and Hope in God !
And Hes saying it to the Elect 1 Pet 1:2
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
civic
Well-known member
thats what happens when you cut/paste the works of others and not read what you are quoting.
yepthats what happens when you cut/paste the works of others and not read what you are quoting.
as was noted
You? (he)
You (He) quoted William lane Craig, and he did not support the Calvinist position which TRT advocates''
And of course this was not addressed
If faith is a gift from God, how could demonic activity restrict the faith of some (Luke 8:12; 2 Cor 4:4)? Why is it harder for some people to believe than others (cf. Titus 1:12-13)? What would be the point of the drawing work of the Holy Spirit (John 6:44; 12:32), or of evangelism and missions? Why was Jesus sometimes amazed at people’s lack of faith (Matt 8:26; 14:31; 16:8)? None of these questions have good answers if faith is a gift of God.
civic
Well-known member
I saw the dodging/avoiding of it lol.
It says nothing at all about the resurrection effectually causing faith in man. It does direct faith towards God for what he accomplished in the resurrection
brightfame52
Well-known member
Faith, believing is effectually caused according to Acts 28:24
And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.
Now the word believed here is peithō :
persuade
to bring about, produce, or cause:
Also in the greek the word is in the imperfect tense and passive voice, meaning they were worked upon to believe,
Thats the work of the Spirit producing faith/belief in them
The same thing in Acts 17:3-4
3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.
4 And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few.
Believed here is aorist passive, hence they were caused to believe.
So this is effectually caused Faith !
And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.
Now the word believed here is peithō :
persuade
- to persuade, i.e. to induce one by words to believe, the word induce means:
to bring about, produce, or cause:
Also in the greek the word is in the imperfect tense and passive voice, meaning they were worked upon to believe,
Thats the work of the Spirit producing faith/belief in them
The same thing in Acts 17:3-4
3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.
4 And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few.
Believed here is aorist passive, hence they were caused to believe.
So this is effectually caused Faith !
brightfame52
Well-known member
The Holy Spirit work causes the elect to believe the Truth/Christ,
The Apostle Paul says in Second Thessalonians 2:13, “But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth”. It is because God the Holy Spirit regenerates us, creating a new nature within us that causes us to have faith and believe the Gospel, which we hear with a quickened ear. The Word of God says, “Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by His Spirit:” 1 Corinthians 2:9-10
www.mayhewprimitivebaptist.com
The Apostle Paul says in Second Thessalonians 2:13, “But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth”. It is because God the Holy Spirit regenerates us, creating a new nature within us that causes us to have faith and believe the Gospel, which we hear with a quickened ear. The Word of God says, “Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by His Spirit:” 1 Corinthians 2:9-10
Mayhew Primitive Baptist Church - Five Golden Links in God's Chain of Salvation
www.mayhewprimitivebaptist.com
