Refuting effectually caused faith

[civic]

It has as much value as the times I've said free-willers doctrine is based on pride.

Projecting again .

The greatest humility I’ve seen within Christianity comes from those who hold to free will . Calvinism feeds the natural man’s ego.

See how that works

 

[civic]

Kinda like the marines motto

The few ( elect ) the proud the “ special “ group.

I love our marines but for different reasons than the slogan.

 

[Johann]

It has as much value as the times I've said free-willers doctrine is based on pride. You assume. I assume. And you know what happens when we assume.

That's the root problem right there-pride comes in many forms and manifestations and we need to humble ourselves.


2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!
2Co 13:6 I hope you will find out that we have not failed the test.
2Co 13:7 But we pray to God that you may not do wrong—not that we may appear to have met the test, but that you may do what is right, though we may seem to have failed.
2Co 13:8 For we cannot do anything against the truth, but only for the truth.
2Co 13:9 For we are glad when we are weak and you are strong. Your restoration is what we pray for.
2Co 13:10 For this reason I write these things while I am away from you, that when I come I may not have to be severe in my use of the authority that the Lord has given me for building up and not for tearing down.

2Co 13:11 Finally, brothers, rejoice. Aim for restoration, comfort one another, agree with one another, live in peace; and the God of love and peace will be with you.
2Co 13:12 Greet one another with a holy kiss.
2Co 13:13 All the saints greet you.
2Co 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

 

[Johann]

I’ve listened to him a few times

Not your cup of tea?

 

[civic]

Not your cup of tea?

No I like what he is about. He tries to be objective

 

[Johann]

No I like what he is about. He tries to be objective

Corrie or Utley.

Truth is, I am learning a lot from Corrie in a very short space of time.
Still praying for a Accordance Bible Software.

 

[civic]

Corrie

 

[Johann]

Corrie

Busy listening to him right now-so much to learn, so little time.

 

[praise_yeshua]

It has as much value as the times I've said free-willers doctrine is based on pride. You assume. I assume. And you know what happens when we assume.

I resemble that remark...

It is an assessment based upon evidence. Someone is right. Someone is wrong. That is why we argue with one another. I stopped arguing about Calvinism and Arminianism for several years. That is when I meet @civic

I never said anything against either of them for a long time to him. We fellowshipped in what we agreed upon. Largely the doctrines of the Incarnation and Holy Trinity. Just like we have as well in the past on other things.

Ultimately, I do believe in freedom. If we believe in freedom, we must allow one another the opportunity to do bad things. I hope you realize that I wish the best for you in all things.

 

[TomL]

Its as plain as the noon day sun that salvific Faith is not of oneself, Eph 2:8

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Faith is the Gift of God, its of the operation of the Spirit effected/caused by pure grace,hence we believe through Grace Acts 18:27

And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through[because of] grace:

So why is it scripture calls salvation the gift not faith

Romans 6:23 (NASB 2020) — 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gracious gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 4:10–14 (NASB 2020) — 10 Jesus replied to her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who is saying to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.” 11 She said to Him, “Sir, You have no bucket and the well is deep; where then do You get this living water? 12 You are not greater than our father Jacob, are You, who gave us the well and drank of it himself, and his sons and his cattle?” 13 Jesus answered and said to her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will be thirsty again; 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never be thirsty; but the water that I will give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up to eternal life.”

as you fail to address this


if faith is a gift from God, how could demonic activity restrict the faith of some (Luke 8:12; 2 Cor 4:4)? Why is it harder for some people to believe than others (cf. Titus 1:12-13)? What would be the point of the drawing work of the Holy Spirit (John 6:44; 12:32), or of evangelism and missions? Why was Jesus sometimes amazed at people’s lack of faith (Matt 8:26; 14:31; 16:8)? None of these questions have good answers if faith is a gift of God.

 

[TomL]

Scripture presents a nuanced perspective on faith, depicting it as both a gift from God and a human response influenced by various factors.

While faith is described as a gift from God in passages like Ephesians 2:8-9, other verses suggest that demonic activity, human sinfulness, and differing degrees of exposure to the gospel can impact one's ability to believe.

Luke 8:12 and 2 Corinthians 4:4 highlight the role of Satan in blinding the minds of unbelievers, hindering their reception of the gospel message. This spiritual warfare aspect demonstrates the reality of demonic influence on human understanding and faith.

Titus 1:12-13 suggests that cultural and personal factors, such as false teaching and societal norms, can contribute to the difficulty some individuals face in believing the gospel. These external influences can create barriers to faith, making it harder for certain people to accept the truth of the gospel message.

The drawing work of the Holy Spirit, as mentioned in John 6:44 and 12:32, operates in conjunction with human responsibility. While the Spirit draws people to Christ, individuals still have the freedom to respond to or resist His prompting. Evangelism and missions play a crucial role in spreading the gospel message and making it accessible to those who have not heard, aligning with God's desire for all people to come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9).

Jesus' amazement at people's lack of faith in passages like Matthew 8:26, 14:31, and 16:8 underscores the human element of faith and the importance of personal response. Despite His divine knowledge, Jesus responds to human faith expressions with a range of emotions, including amazement at both strong faith and persistent unbelief. These instances serve as reminders of the complexity of faith and the significance of individual responses to God's revelation.

My faith or the gift of faith? is it possible to have faith NOT initiated by God?

Corrie-on the parable of the soils.

I disagree. There is but a single gift and in the passage it is salvation

Verse 9 makes no sense is the demonstrative pronoun refers to faith

Corresponding to scripture

Romans 6:23 (KJV 1900) — 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

yes it is possible

John 12:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

God had to harden them to prevent belief

 

[Johann]

I disagree. There is but a single gift and in the passage it is salvation

Verse 9 makes no sense is the demonstrative pronoun refers to faith

Corresponding to scripture

Romans 6:23 (KJV 1900) — 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

yes it is possible

John 12:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

God had to harden them to prevent belief

No problem-we can agree to disagree.

 

[TomL]

No problem-we can agree to disagree.

Ok If that is what you wish

 

[praise_yeshua]

So why is it scripture calls salvation the gift not faith

Romans 6:23 (NASB 2020) — 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gracious gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 4:10–14 (NASB 2020) — 10 Jesus replied to her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who is saying to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.” 11 She said to Him, “Sir, You have no bucket and the well is deep; where then do You get this living water? 12 You are not greater than our father Jacob, are You, who gave us the well and drank of it himself, and his sons and his cattle?” 13 Jesus answered and said to her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will be thirsty again; 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never be thirsty; but the water that I will give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up to eternal life.”

as you fail to address this


if faith is a gift from God, how could demonic activity restrict the faith of some (Luke 8:12; 2 Cor 4:4)? Why is it harder for some people to believe than others (cf. Titus 1:12-13)? What would be the point of the drawing work of the Holy Spirit (John 6:44; 12:32), or of evangelism and missions? Why was Jesus sometimes amazed at people’s lack of faith (Matt 8:26; 14:31; 16:8)? None of these questions have good answers if faith is a gift of God.

Brother there is nothing without God. In such, it is a gift. Trust/belief is fundamental to human existence.

Someone trusted the wind to provide "lift" that we use in airplanes. Jesus used the "wind" to explain the new birth to Nicodemus. Any experiment revolving around "air/wind"... would provide information. The issue isn't if faith is a gift. Faith comes from the ability to reason.

Isa 1:17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

Which is why we don't hold decisions of salvation/faith relative to the innocent or those incapable of reason.

Claiming "enlightenment" apart from the natural ability to reason is just down right silly.

This is an example of how these types of battles between Calvinism and Arminianism are fundamentally flawed.

These "baked in" arguments often limit perspective.

 

[TomL]

Brother there is nothing without God. In such, it is a gift. Trust/belief is fundamental to human existence.

Someone trusted the wind to provide "lift" that we use in airplanes. Jesus used the "wind" to explain the new birth to Nicodemus. Any experiment revolving "air/wind"... would provide information. The issue isn't if faith is a gift. Faith comes from the ability to reason.

Isa 1:17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

Which is why we don't hold decisions of salvation/faith relative to the innocent or those incapable of reason.

Claiming "enlightenment" apart from the natural ability to reason is just down right silly.

This is an example of how these types of battles between Calvinism and Arminianism are fundamentally flawed.

These "baked in" arguments often limit perspective.

God created man with an ability for faith. How he uses it is up to him

Saving faith is not a gift he gives to some and with-holds from orthers

 

[praise_yeshua]

God created man with an ability for faith. How he uses it is up to him

Saving faith is not a gift he gives to some and with-holds from orthers

In this we agree. We just construct it differently.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

God created man with an ability for faith. How he uses it is up to him

Saving faith is not a gift he gives to some and with-holds from orthers

I agree with your first line. Man not only has an ability for faith, it is a compelling force, if not THE compelling force in man's lives. Men put their faith in drugs, science, psychology, sex, relationships, etc. It's referred to by some as the desire to fill the God-shaped hole in their being with anything but God.

I disagree with the second line. Given the choice, man would never try to fill that faith space with God. That belief/desire has to come from above.

 

[Johann]

I agree with your first line. Man not only has an ability for faith, it is a compelling force, if not THE compelling force in man's lives. Men put their faith in drugs, science, psychology, sex, relationships, etc. It's referred to by some as the desire to fill the God-shaped hole in their being with anything but God.

I disagree with the second line. Given the choice, man would never try to fill that faith space with God. That belief/desire has to come from above.

Remember brother-be prepared to--

1Pe 3:15 but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect,
1Pe 3:16 having a good conscience, so that, when you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame.

God bless.
Johann.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Remember brother-be prepared to--

1Pe 3:15 but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect,
1Pe 3:16 having a good conscience, so that, when you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame.

God bless.
Johann.

Amen, praise God.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I agree with your first line. Man not only has an ability for faith, it is a compelling force, if not THE compelling force in man's lives. Men put their faith in drugs, science, psychology, sex, relationships, etc. It's referred to by some as the desire to fill the God-shaped hole in their being with anything but God.

I disagree with the second line. Given the choice, man would never try to fill that faith space with God. That belief/desire has to come from above.

There are many things that disillusion mankind from their bad desires. Choices have natural ramifications. Which is why it often takes "falling" for us to learn. There is nothing unique to learning that our ways are not HIS ways. It is the natural order of choices in this life that God has designed.

Act 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

We move freely within this life. No matter were we go, we are faced with the same realizations. Our ways end.

You're looking for necessity of enlightenment in the wrong place in your argument. It is the fool that says there is no God.

The battle for the rational mind is found in "WHO" God is. Which is where the necessity of the Gospel comes into play. The preaching of WHO God is.