Refuting effectually caused faith

Barnes below an honest Calvinist

And that not of yourselves - That is, salvation does not proceed from yourselves. The word rendered "that" - τοῦτο touto - is in the neuter gender, and the word "faith" - πίστις pistis - is in the feminine. The word "that," therefore, does not refer particularly to faith, as being the gift of God, but to "the salvation by grace" of which he had been speaking. This is the interpretation of the passage which is the most obvious, and which is now generally conceded to be the true one

Words "that" and "it" refer back to a noun. "Saved" is neither a noun, nor is it neuter like "that". The word "salvation", if it appeared there, is not neuter, either, but it doesn't appear in that verse, so it doesn't matter. So that leaves two choices: "that" and "it" refer to faith, or they refer to the concept "are having been saved through faith", which means both salvation and faith are gifts.
 
Words "that" and "it" refer back to a noun. "Saved" is neither a noun, nor is it neuter like "that". The word "salvation", if it appeared there, is not neuter, either, but it doesn't appear in that verse, so it doesn't matter. So that leaves two choices: "that" and "it" refer to faith, or they refer to the concept "are having been saved through faith", which means both salvation and faith are gifts.
Nope you don’t know Greek better than the Greek experts I quoted , nice try
 
Barnes below an honest Calvinist

And that not of yourselves - That is, salvation does not proceed from yourselves. The word rendered "that" - τοῦτο touto - is in the neuter gender, and the word "faith" - πίστις pistis - is in the feminine. The word "that," therefore, does not refer particularly to faith, as being the gift of God, but to "the salvation by grace" of which he had been speaking. This is the interpretation of the passage which is the most obvious, and which is now generally conceded to be the true one
Gill--

through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; salvation is through faith, not as a cause or condition of salvation, or as what adds anything to the blessing itself; but it is the way, or means, or instrument, which God has appointed, for the receiving and enjoying it, that so it might appear to be all of grace; and this faith is not the produce of man's free will and power, but it is the free gift of God; and therefore salvation through it is consistent with salvation by grace; since that itself is of grace, lies entirely in receiving grace and gives all the glory to the grace of God: the sense of this last clause may be, that salvation is not of ourselves; it is not of our desiring nor of our deserving, nor of our performing, but is of the free grace of God: though faith is elsewhere represented as the gift of God, Joh_6:65 and it is called the special gift of faith, in the Apocrypha:

"And blessed is the eunuch, which with his hands hath wrought no iniquity, nor imagined wicked things against God: for unto him shall be given the "special gift of faith", and an inheritance in the temple of the Lord more acceptable to his mind.'' (Wisdom 3:14)

----- (I asked the following question from a Greek and Hebrew professor:

"In this verse, to what does the word "that" refer to? Adam Clarke, Wesley & company say that it is neuter plural and "Faith" is feminine hence it cannot refer to faith, (Such an admission would destroy their theological system.) However "Grace" is also feminine as is "Salvation".''
His reply was:

"Here you ask a wonderful theological/exegetical question to which I can only give an opinion, and not a definitive answer. The problem is that there is NO precise referent. Grace is feminine. Faith is feminine. And even Salvation (as a noun) is feminine. Yet it must be one of these three at least, and maybe more than one, or all three in conjunction. Since all three come from God and not from man, the latter might seem the more likely. However, it is a tautology to say salvation and grace are "nor of yourselves," and in that case it certainly looks more like the passage is really pointing out that man cannot even take credit for his own act of faith, but that faith was itself created by God and implanted in us that we might believe (i.e. the normal Calvinistic position).

In which regard the whole theological issue of "regeneration preceding faith" comes into play. So, that is basically my opinion, though others obviously disagree strenuously, but from an exegetical standpoint, the other positions have to explain away the matter of the tautology.''

Whether you accept the reply or not, it is sufficient to show that the Greek is not as definitive in this verse as some scholars would have you believe. Editor)

I like this Editor.
 
Gill--

through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; salvation is through faith, not as a cause or condition of salvation, or as what adds anything to the blessing itself; but it is the way, or means, or instrument, which God has appointed, for the receiving and enjoying it, that so it might appear to be all of grace; and this faith is not the produce of man's free will and power, but it is the free gift of God; and therefore salvation through it is consistent with salvation by grace; since that itself is of grace, lies entirely in receiving grace and gives all the glory to the grace of God: the sense of this last clause may be, that salvation is not of ourselves; it is not of our desiring nor of our deserving, nor of our performing, but is of the free grace of God: though faith is elsewhere represented as the gift of God, Joh_6:65 and it is called the special gift of faith, in the Apocrypha:

"And blessed is the eunuch, which with his hands hath wrought no iniquity, nor imagined wicked things against God: for unto him shall be given the "special gift of faith", and an inheritance in the temple of the Lord more acceptable to his mind.'' (Wisdom 3:14)

----- (I asked the following question from a Greek and Hebrew professor:

"In this verse, to what does the word "that" refer to? Adam Clarke, Wesley & company say that it is neuter plural and "Faith" is feminine hence it cannot refer to faith, (Such an admission would destroy their theological system.) However "Grace" is also feminine as is "Salvation".''
His reply was:

"Here you ask a wonderful theological/exegetical question to which I can only give an opinion, and not a definitive answer. The problem is that there is NO precise referent. Grace is feminine. Faith is feminine. And even Salvation (as a noun) is feminine. Yet it must be one of these three at least, and maybe more than one, or all three in conjunction. Since all three come from God and not from man, the latter might seem the more likely. However, it is a tautology to say salvation and grace are "nor of yourselves," and in that case it certainly looks more like the passage is really pointing out that man cannot even take credit for his own act of faith, but that faith was itself created by God and implanted in us that we might believe (i.e. the normal Calvinistic position).

In which regard the whole theological issue of "regeneration preceding faith" comes into play. So, that is basically my opinion, though others obviously disagree strenuously, but from an exegetical standpoint, the other positions have to explain away the matter of the tautology.''

Whether you accept the reply or not, it is sufficient to show that the Greek is not as definitive in this verse as some scholars would have you believe. Editor)

I like this Editor.
A biased Calvinist no thanks
 
Gill--

through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; salvation is through faith, not as a cause or condition of salvation, or as what adds anything to the blessing itself; but it is the way, or means, or instrument, which God has appointed, for the receiving and enjoying it, that so it might appear to be all of grace; and this faith is not the produce of man's free will and power, but it is the free gift of God; and therefore salvation through it is consistent with salvation by grace; since that itself is of grace, lies entirely in receiving grace and gives all the glory to the grace of God: the sense of this last clause may be, that salvation is not of ourselves; it is not of our desiring nor of our deserving, nor of our performing, but is of the free grace of God: though faith is elsewhere represented as the gift of God, Joh_6:65 and it is called the special gift of faith, in the Apocrypha:

"And blessed is the eunuch, which with his hands hath wrought no iniquity, nor imagined wicked things against God: for unto him shall be given the "special gift of faith", and an inheritance in the temple of the Lord more acceptable to his mind.'' (Wisdom 3:14)

----- (I asked the following question from a Greek and Hebrew professor:

"In this verse, to what does the word "that" refer to? Adam Clarke, Wesley & company say that it is neuter plural and "Faith" is feminine hence it cannot refer to faith, (Such an admission would destroy their theological system.) However "Grace" is also feminine as is "Salvation".''
His reply was:

"Here you ask a wonderful theological/exegetical question to which I can only give an opinion, and not a definitive answer. The problem is that there is NO precise referent. Grace is feminine. Faith is feminine. And even Salvation (as a noun) is feminine. Yet it must be one of these three at least, and maybe more than one, or all three in conjunction. Since all three come from God and not from man, the latter might seem the more likely. However, it is a tautology to say salvation and grace are "nor of yourselves," and in that case it certainly looks more like the passage is really pointing out that man cannot even take credit for his own act of faith, but that faith was itself created by God and implanted in us that we might believe (i.e. the normal Calvinistic position).

In which regard the whole theological issue of "regeneration preceding faith" comes into play. So, that is basically my opinion, though others obviously disagree strenuously, but from an exegetical standpoint, the other positions have to explain away the matter of the tautology.''

Whether you accept the reply or not, it is sufficient to show that the Greek is not as definitive in this verse as some scholars would have you believe. Editor)

I like this Editor.
"Since all three come from God and not from man"

Yes, that was the point I was making.
 
A biased Calvinist no thanks
Then give Corrie a listen-and he is not a Calvinist. I read all commentaries whether Reformed or Arminian-

"by grace you have been saved" This is a Perfect passive periphrastic participle, repeated in Eph. 2:8 for emphasis. This meant that believers have been saved in the past, by an outside agent, with abiding results; "they have been and continue to be saved by God." This same construction is repeated in Eph. 2:8 for emphasis. Eph. 1:7.
This is one of the biblical passages which forms the basis for the doctrine of the security of the believer (cf. John 6:37, 39; 10:28; 17:2, 24; 18:9; Rom. 8:31-39). Like all biblical doctrines, it must be balanced (held in tension) with other truths and texts.
Utley.
 
"Since all three come from God and not from man"

Yes, that was the point I was making.
Now all we have to do is read what the scholars are saying on this particular verse and pray for illumination by the Holy Spirit and a style of life in conformity of our Lord Christ Jesus-bearing fruit.
Don't fall for the snare of reading scholarly work "selectively" to steel man your case-we are all a work in progress.

Shalom brother.
 
Now all we have to do is read what the scholars are saying on this particular verse and pray for illumination by the Holy Spirit and a style of life in conformity of our Lord Christ Jesus-bearing fruit.
Don't fall for the snare of reading scholarly work "selectively" to steel man your case-we are all a work in progress.

Shalom brother.
Amen, brother.
 
How many other things come from God? Breath? Life? Ears? Mouths? Vocal cords?

The problem isn't recognizing something comes from God. The problem is your exclusive claim for yourself.
Quote me where I say it's an exclusive claim for myself.

Everything comes from God. Watch that video Johann posted. It explains the significance of God's work in the heart.
 
You continue to fail

So why is it scripture calls salvation the gift not faith

Romans 6:23 (NASB 2020) — 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gracious gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 4:10–14 (NASB 2020) — 10 Jesus replied to her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who is saying to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.” 11 She said to Him, “Sir, You have no bucket and the well is deep; where then do You get this living water? 12 You are not greater than our father Jacob, are You, who gave us the well and drank of it himself, and his sons and his cattle?” 13 Jesus answered and said to her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will be thirsty again; 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never be thirsty; but the water that I will give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up to eternal life.”

as you fail to address this



if faith is a gift from God, how could demonic activity restrict the faith of some (Luke 8:12; 2 Cor 4:4)? Why is it harder for some people to believe than others (cf. Titus 1:12-13)? What would be the point of the drawing work of the Holy Spirit (John 6:44; 12:32), or of evangelism and missions? Why was Jesus sometimes amazed at people’s lack of faith (Matt 8:26; 14:31; 16:8)? None of these questions have good answers if faith is a gift of God.
Its as plain as the noon day sun that salvific Faith is not of oneself, Eph 2:8

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Faith is the Gift of God, its of the operation of the Spirit effected/caused by pure grace,hence we believe through Grace Acts 18:27

And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through[because of] grace:
 
Quote me where I say it's an exclusive claim for myself.

Everything comes from God. Watch that video Johann posted. It explains the significance of God's work in the heart.

You don't have to say it. The Truth is the Truth regardless of your admitting it or not.

Guess what, when you stand before God, you're not going to use the defense "quote me" on God.

Why try to sell that lie now?

You believe only certain people are uniquely beneficiaries of God's gifts.
 
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Its as plain as the noon day sun that salvific Faith is not of oneself, Eph 2:8

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Faith is the Gift of God, its of the operation of the Spirit effected/caused by pure grace,hence we believe through Grace Acts 18:27

And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through[because of] grace:
Amen-

1Pe_1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,


1Pe 1:3 Blessed [be] Εὐλογητὸς the ὁ God Θεὸς and καὶ Father Πατὴρ of our ἡμῶν - τοῦ Lord Κυρίου Jesus Ἰησοῦ Christ, Χριστοῦ, the [One] ὁ according to κατὰ His αὐτοῦ great πολὺ - τὸ mercy ἔλεος vvv ἡμᾶς having begotten us again ἀναγεννήσας to εἰς a living ζῶσαν hope, ἐλπίδα through δι’ [the] resurrection ἀναστάσεως of Jesus Ἰησοῦ Christ Χριστοῦ out from ἐκ [the] dead, νεκρῶν,

1Pe 1:3 Blessed is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who, according to the abundance of His kindness did beget us again to a living hope, through the rising again of Jesus Christ out of the dead,
YLT.
 
Amen-

1Pe_1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,


1Pe 1:3 Blessed [be] Εὐλογητὸς the ὁ God Θεὸς and καὶ Father Πατὴρ of our ἡμῶν - τοῦ Lord Κυρίου Jesus Ἰησοῦ Christ, Χριστοῦ, the [One] ὁ according to κατὰ His αὐτοῦ great πολὺ - τὸ mercy ἔλεος vvv ἡμᾶς having begotten us again ἀναγεννήσας to εἰς a living ζῶσαν hope, ἐλπίδα through δι’ [the] resurrection ἀναστάσεως of Jesus Ἰησοῦ Christ Χριστοῦ out from ἐκ [the] dead, νεκρῶν,

1Pe 1:3 Blessed is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who, according to the abundance of His kindness did beget us again to a living hope, through the rising again of Jesus Christ out of the dead,
YLT.

Did the Gospel come TO YOU!

The Gospel came to Paul through Stephen. Paul would never have been saved without Stephen. Stephen birth Paul/Saul through the Gospel.

1Co 4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

Paul murdered his own father in the faith.
 
You don't have to say it. The Truth is the Truth regardless of your admitting it or not.

Guess what, when you stand before God, you're not going to use the defense "quote me" on God.

Why try to sell that lie now?

You believe only certain people are uniquely beneficiaries of God's gifts.
It has as much value as the times I've said free-willers doctrine is based on pride. You assume. I assume. And you know what happens when we assume.
 
Then give Corrie a listen-and he is not a Calvinist. I read all commentaries whether Reformed or Arminian-

"by grace you have been saved" This is a Perfect passive periphrastic participle, repeated in Eph. 2:8 for emphasis. This meant that believers have been saved in the past, by an outside agent, with abiding results; "they have been and continue to be saved by God." This same construction is repeated in Eph. 2:8 for emphasis. Eph. 1:7.
This is one of the biblical passages which forms the basis for the doctrine of the security of the believer (cf. John 6:37, 39; 10:28; 17:2, 24; 18:9; Rom. 8:31-39). Like all biblical doctrines, it must be balanced (held in tension) with other truths and texts.
Utley.
I’ve listened to him a few times
 
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