Refuting effectually caused faith

brightfame52 said:
Faith is effectually caused because God is to be thanked when the word is received in a conversion experience 1 Thess 2:13

13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

And this is because they were elect as we see in 1 Thess 1:4-6

4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

5 For our gospel came not unto you[The elect] in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

6 And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost.
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Sorry but that appears to be another assumption

It is their behavior after believing because of God's word working in them

And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost.

after previously exhorting them

1 Thessalonians 2:12 (KJV 1900) — 12 That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.
 
Presby02 said:
Jesus also said unless one is born again he CANNOT see the kingdom of God. David, Moses and Abraham, were they born again, Posses the Spirit?
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No gospel, no Holy Spirit indwelling. You have much in common with the disciples pre Pentecost. :) You do not know or understand the gospel.

We know that the disciples did not understand the gospel as it was hidden from them until after Pentecost. Jesus even said that He hid it from them.

Luke 9:43-45
While everyone was marveling at all that Jesus did, he said to his disciples, 44 “Listen carefully to what I am about to tell you: The Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men.” 45 But they did not understand what this meant. It was hidden from them, so that they did not grasp it, and they were afraid to ask him about it.

Luke 18:34
But the disciples did not understand any of these things. The meaning was hidden from them, and they did not comprehend what He was saying

Romans 16:25
Now to Him who is able to strengthen you by my gospel and by the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery concealed for ages past

1 Corinthians 2:7
No, we speak of the mysterious and hidden wisdom of God, which He destined for our glory before time began.

Ephesians 3:1-5
For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles—2 Surely you have heard about the administration of God’s grace that was given to me for you, 3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets.


Gospel Summary

1- Jesus died for our sins according to the scriptures
2- Jesus was buried , in a guarded tomb
3- Jesus was raised from the dead, resurrected on the 3rd day bodily
4- Jesus was seen by many witnesses over 40 days before His Ascension

Jesus died for the sin of the world as the Lamb of God who taketh them away ( John 1:29 ) and Rose from the dead as the only sign He would give an unbelieving people who rejected Him proving He was the promised Messiah who had the power over sin, death/grave and the devil having been raised from the dead conquering them all. The gospel is a historical fact verified by many witnesses. The biblical principle of letting every fact be confirmed by the testimony of 2 or 3 witnesses. This gospel is for all the world, for all sinners to come freely and receive the forgiveness of their sins by the atonement He made for ALL the WORLD as per 1 John 2:2.

John 1:12
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

John 3:16-18
“For God so loved the world,[i] that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

John 20:30-31
Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

hope this helps !!!
 
Presby02 said:
"Unless you are born AGAIN, you cannot see the kingdom of heaven."
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I will let this Calvinist teach you a lesson :) Dr Barnes on John 3:3

And as every man is a sinner, it is necessary that each one should experience this change, or he cannot be happy or saved. This doctrine was not unknown to the Jews, and was particularly predicted as a doctrine that would be taught in the times of the Messiah. See Deuteronomy 10:16; Jeremiah 4:4; Jeremiah 31:33; Ezekiel 11:19; Ezekiel 36:25; Psalm 51:12. The change in the New Testament is elsewhere called the "new creation" 2 Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 6:15, and "life from the dead," or a resurrection, Ephesians 2:1; John 5:21, John 5:24.

He cannot see - To "see," here, is put evidently for enjoying - or he cannot be fitted for it and partake of it.

The kingdom of God - Either in this world or in that which is to come - that is, heaven. See the notes at Matthew 3:2. The meaning is, that the kingdom which Jesus was about to set up was so pure and holy that it was indispensable that every man should experience this change, or he could not partake of its blessings. This is solemnly declared by the Son of God by an affirmation equivalent to an oath, and there can be no possibility, therefore, of entering heaven without experiencing the change which the Saviour contemplated by the "new birth." And it becomes every man, as in the presence of a holy God before whom he must soon appear, to ask himself whether he has experienced this change, and if he has not, to give no rest to his eyes until he has sought the mercy of God, and implored the aid of his Spirit that his heart may be renewed.
 
civic said:
I will let this Calvinist teach you a lesson :) Dr Barnes on John 3:3

And as every man is a sinner, it is necessary that each one should experience this change, or he cannot be happy or saved. This doctrine was not unknown to the Jews, and was particularly predicted as a doctrine that would be taught in the times of the Messiah. See Deuteronomy 10:16; Jeremiah 4:4; Jeremiah 31:33; Ezekiel 11:19; Ezekiel 36:25; Psalm 51:12. The change in the New Testament is elsewhere called the "new creation" 2 Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 6:15, and "life from the dead," or a resurrection, Ephesians 2:1; John 5:21, John 5:24.

He cannot see - To "see," here, is put evidently for enjoying - or he cannot be fitted for it and partake of it.

The kingdom of God - Either in this world or in that which is to come - that is, heaven. See the notes at Matthew 3:2. The meaning is, that the kingdom which Jesus was about to set up was so pure and holy that it was indispensable that every man should experience this change, or he could not partake of its blessings. This is solemnly declared by the Son of God by an affirmation equivalent to an oath, and there can be no possibility, therefore, of entering heaven without experiencing the change which the Saviour contemplated by the "new birth." And it becomes every man, as in the presence of a holy God before whom he must soon appear, to ask himself whether he has experienced this change, and if he has not, to give no rest to his eyes until he has sought the mercy of God, and implored the aid of his Spirit that his heart may be renewed.
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Let this Calvinist quote you the very words of our Lord Himself.

"Unless you are born again you CANNOT see the kingdom of heaven. "
 
Presby02 said:
Let this Calvinist quote you the very words of our Lord Himself.

"Unless you are born again you CANNOT see the kingdom of heaven. "
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Yep no one was until Pentecost. Your view makes Jesus out to be a liar and deceiver. Jesus said the promise of the Holy Spirit was future and that His disciples were to tarry for 40 days after His Ascension to wait for the promise of the Holy Spirit, New Birth, born from above, 2nd birth, regeneration, indwelling of the H.S., sealed with the Holy Spirit all mean the same thing.

You do not understand Jesus teaching just the same as Nicodemus did not understand it. You make a mockery out of Jesus teaching on the Holy Spirit that was yet to come after His departure. I will send ANOTHER COMFORTER- its good that I leave/depart and go to be with the Father so He could send the Holy Spirit to be IN THEM- to indwell them- this is the new birth. the 2nd Birth.

hope this helps !!!
 
civic said:
I will let this Calvinist teach you a lesson :) Dr Barnes on John 3:3

And as every man is a sinner, it is necessary that each one should experience this change, or he cannot be happy or saved. This doctrine was not unknown to the Jews, and was particularly predicted as a doctrine that would be taught in the times of the Messiah. See Deuteronomy 10:16; Jeremiah 4:4; Jeremiah 31:33; Ezekiel 11:19; Ezekiel 36:25; Psalm 51:12. The change in the New Testament is elsewhere called the "new creation" 2 Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 6:15, and "life from the dead," or a resurrection, Ephesians 2:1; John 5:21, John 5:24.

He cannot see - To "see," here, is put evidently for enjoying - or he cannot be fitted for it and partake of it.

The kingdom of God - Either in this world or in that which is to come - that is, heaven. See the notes at Matthew 3:2. The meaning is, that the kingdom which Jesus was about to set up was so pure and holy that it was indispensable that every man should experience this change, or he could not partake of its blessings. This is solemnly declared by the Son of God by an affirmation equivalent to an oath, and there can be no possibility, therefore, of entering heaven without experiencing the change which the Saviour contemplated by the "new birth." And it becomes every man, as in the presence of a holy God before whom he must soon appear, to ask himself whether he has experienced this change, and if he has not, to give no rest to his eyes until he has sought the mercy of God, and implored the aid of his Spirit that his heart may be renewed.
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Calvin also

By this statement, he means, “So long as you lack what is first in God’s Kingdom, it does not impress me that you call me Master. For the first step into the Kingdom of God is that you become a new man.” This sentence is so weighty that we must look into each part of it separately. To see the Kingdom of God is to enter it, as we shall soon see from the context. But those who identify the Kingdom of God with heaven are mistaken; the Kingdom means rather the spiritual life, which begins in this life by faith, and in which we grow daily as we progress in a constant faith. This statement means that no one truly belongs to the church and is counted among God’s children, unless he first becomes a new man. This verse shows briefly how one begins the Christian life. It also teaches us that we are born exiles and complete strangers to the Kingdom of God and that we are perpetually at war with it, until he makes us other than we are by a new birth. This verse therefore applies universally to the whole human race. If Christ had said to one man or to a few that they could not enter heaven except by being born again, we might imagine that he referred only to certain people. But this is not the case. He was speaking of all men, without excepting any. The wording conveys no impression of limitation. It is a universal statement which means that all those who are not born again, cannot enter the Kingdom of God.

Joseph Haroutunian and Louise Pettibone Smith, Calvin: Commentaries (Philadelphia: Westminster Press, 1958), 138.
 
TomL said:
Calvin also

By this statement, he means, “So long as you lack what is first in God’s Kingdom, it does not impress me that you call me Master. For the first step into the Kingdom of God is that you become a new man.” This sentence is so weighty that we must look into each part of it separately. To see the Kingdom of God is to enter it, as we shall soon see from the context. But those who identify the Kingdom of God with heaven are mistaken; the Kingdom means rather the spiritual life, which begins in this life by faith, and in which we grow daily as we progress in a constant faith. This statement means that no one truly belongs to the church and is counted among God’s children, unless he first becomes a new man. This verse shows briefly how one begins the Christian life. It also teaches us that we are born exiles and complete strangers to the Kingdom of God and that we are perpetually at war with it, until he makes us other than we are by a new birth. This verse therefore applies universally to the whole human race. If Christ had said to one man or to a few that they could not enter heaven except by being born again, we might imagine that he referred only to certain people. But this is not the case. He was speaking of all men, without excepting any. The wording conveys no impression of limitation. It is a universal statement which means that all those who are not born again, cannot enter the Kingdom of God.

Joseph Haroutunian and Louise Pettibone Smith, Calvin: Commentaries (Philadelphia: Westminster Press, 1958), 138.
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I'm saving this quote for sure.

wow he said the spiritual life BEGINS WITH FAITH-

straight out of the horses mouth.

calvin suffered from cognitive dissonance as well.
 
civic said:
Yep no one was until Pentecost. Your view makes Jesus out to be a liar and deceiver. Jesus said the promise of the Holy Spirit was future and that His disciples were to tarry for 40 days after His Ascension to wait for the promise of the Holy Spirit, New Birth, born from above, 2nd birth, regeneration, indwelling of the H.S., sealed with the Holy Spirit all mean the same thing.

You do not understand Jesus teaching just the same as Nicodemus did not understand it. You make a mockery out of Jesus teaching on the Holy Spirit that was yet to come after His departure. I will send ANOTHER COMFORTER- its good that I leave/depart and go to be with the Father so He could send the Holy Spirit to be IN THEM- to indwell them- this is the new birth. the 2nd Birth.

hope this helps !!!
Click to expand...
Where does it say no one was born again until Pentecost?

Christ said those words under the old covenant dispensation in the present tense.

Did Moses know of Christ? Hebrews 11:25,26.
 
civic said:
wow he said the spiritual life BEGINS WITH FAITH-

straight out of the horses mouth.

calvin suffered from cognitive dissonance as well.
Click to expand...
yep

One cannot avoid conflict between scripture and doctrine if holding to Calvinism

Consistency with Calvinism = inconsistency with scripture

and consistency with scripture = inconsistency with Calvinism
 
Presby02 said:
Where does it say no one was born again until Pentecost?

Christ said those words under the old covenant dispensation in the present tense.

Did Moses know of Christ? Hebrews 11:25,26.
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read I gave Jesus teaching on the topic. asking questions are nothing but your diversion so you can avoid Jesus words.
 
TomL said:
yep

One cannot avoid conflict between scripture and doctrine if holding to Calvinism

Consistency with Calvinism = inconsistency with scripture

and consistency with scripture = inconsistency with Calvinism
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yes its obvious to anyone without a bias. calvin contradicts tulip above on John 3:3
 
civic said:
read I gave Jesus teaching on the topic. asking questions are nothing but your diversion so you can avoid Jesus words.
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Did Moses know of Christ? Did Abraham look to His day?

I gave you Christs words. Here they are again.

"Unless you are born again you CANNOT see the kingdom of heaven."

"NO ONE comes unto the Father but by Me."
 
Presby02 said:
Did Moses know of Christ? Did Abraham look to His day?

I gave you Christs words. Here they are again.

"Unless you are born again you CANNOT see the kingdom of heaven."

"NO ONE comes unto the Father but by Me."
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they by faith looked forward- they were not born again. The New Birth began at Pentecost.

your partial quotes ripped from their context as usual do not change the clear teaching on the topic of the Holy Spirit as taught by Jesus.

you have nothing but eisegesis and isolated partial verses to form your false teachings. I have the clear teaching of Jesus and the Apostles which I quotes exposing your errors.

next
 
Presby02 said:
"Unless one is born again you cannot see the kingdom of heaven."

"NO ONE comes unto the Father but by me"
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And?

John 14:6–7 (ESV) — 6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him.”

One is born again upon receiving Christ

John 1:11–12 (ESV) — 11 He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. 12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

(5) The “children of God.”—Those who are “begotten of God” are ipso facto “children of God” (tékna theoú, Jn 1:12; 11:52; 1 Jn 3:1, 2, 10; 5:2).1

1 R. Law, “Johannine, Theology, The,” ed. James Orr et al., The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia (Chicago: The Howard-Severance Company, 1915), 1703.



CHILDREN OF GOD. Persons in this category are only those who of the fallen race are regenerated as a result of faith in Christ1

1 Merrill F. Unger, “Children of God,” ed. R.K. Harrison, The New Unger’s Bible Dictionary (Chicago: Moody Press, 1988).

Children of God (tekna theou). In the full spiritual sense, not as mere offspring of God true of all men (Acts 17:28). Paul's phrase huioi theou (Galatians 3:26) for believers, used also by Jesus of the pure in heart (Matthew 5:9), does not occur in John's Gospel (but in Rev. 21:7). It is possible that John prefers ta tekna tou theou for the spiritual children of God whether Jew or Gentile (John 11:52) because of the community of nature (teknon from root tek-, to beget). But one cannot follow Westcott in insisting on "adoption" as Paul's reason for the use of huioi since Jesus uses huioi theou in Matthew 5:9. Clearly the idea of regeneration is involved here as in John 3:3.
Word Pictures in the New Testament.

Vincent agrees

Sons (τέκνα)
Rev., more correctly, children. Son is υἱός. Τέκνον, child (τίκτω, to bring forth), denotes a relation based on community of nature
Word Studies in the New Testament.


τέκνα θ. γενέσθαι] The spiritual life owes its beginning to a birth from above, ch. 3:3–7. And this birth is owing to the Holy Spirit of God; so that this is equivalent to saying, ‘As many as received Him, to them gave He His Holy Spirit.’ And we find that it was so: see Acts 10:44.
Henry Alford, Alford’s Greek Testament: An Exegetical and Critical Commentary (vol. 1; Grand Rapids, MI: Guardian Press, 1976), 684.
 

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