civic
Well-known member
yes there are 100's of such examples in the bible that disprove calvinism.
Refuting effectually caused faith
- Thread starter TomL
- Start date
Nope a new heart requires faith first
As faith preceeds regeneration
John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
John 5:24–25 (KJV 1900) — 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
John 3:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 5:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
John 6:53 (KJV 1900) — 53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Yes but Calvinist tend to ignore them and concentrate on a few verses they can read their theology into
brightfame52
Well-known member
Faith is effectually caused because God is to be thanked when the word is received in a conversion experience 1 Thess 2:13
13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
And this is because they were elect as we see in 1 Thess 1:4-6
4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
5 For our gospel came not unto you[The elect] in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.
6 And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost.
13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
And this is because they were elect as we see in 1 Thess 1:4-6
4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
5 For our gospel came not unto you[The elect] in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.
6 And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Faith in Christ requires a New Heart for the old heart by nature is alienated from God, and blind observe Eph 4:18
Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
So God in regeneration gives the redeemed a New Heart Ezk 36 26
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
civic
Well-known member
Ezekiel 18 declares : “a NEW SPIRIT I WILL (future) put WITHIN them…” These predictions mean that even Ezekiel was not regenerated, nor was any man prior to Ezekiel. And Ezekiel lived near the end of the OT time period. Scripture talks about 2 kinds of life. Physical and Spiritual. What other “kind of life” does the Bible talk about other than the life we are given in the flesh when we are born of the flesh, and eternal life which we are given when we are born of the Spirit? There is no other “kind of life” taught about in the Bible. When a man is born of the eternal Spirit, by the eternal Word of God, he is given eternal life. A man is regenerated when He is made alive with Jesus Christ (Eph. 2:5). Can a man be “made alive with Jesus Christ” apart from having Jesus Christ dwelling in him? Also, Paul explicitly states, “You are not in the flesh but in the Spirit IF THE SPIRIT OF GOD DWELL IN YOU. And if any man HAVE NOT THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST HE IS NONE OF HIS.” (Rom. 8:9). We are born again THROUGH THE RESURRECTION OF JESUS CHRIST FROM THE DEAD (1Peter 1:3). Can a man be born again through the resurrection of Jesus Christ before Jesus Christ actually rose again from the dead? No so Jesus in John 3 was not talking about spiritual life in the OT but the promise of the Spirit that would come at Pentecost when His spirit would be poured out upon all who believe in Him and become born again children of God from the preaching of the gospel and receiving Him as Lord.
1 Peter 1:3
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1 Peter 1:23
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.
James 1:18
He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we would be a kind of firstfruits of His creation.
Titus 3:5
He saved us, not by the righteous deeds we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of new birth and renewal by the Holy Spirit
John 1:12-13
Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believe in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God
Notice what comes first in scripture - the order of how one becomes saved.
1- Repent , turn away from sin
2- the after you repent you get a new heart/spirit ,regeneration, new life, born again etc....
3- repent then you live, have life- ie new heart, spirit.
John below the same order in in his opening of the gospel and in his purpose statement for writing his gospel.
John 1:12-13
“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
Same order as above receive, believe, call on Him then the new birth follows.
John 20:31
“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
Once again the order is consistent with the OT- belief/repentance precedes life.
Romans 10:8-13
But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Again above we see its hearing the gospel, believing the message , confessing then calling upon the Lord results in salvation.
Acts tells us the same order in 11:18- "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.” Repent precedes life.
Paul confirms the order in Ephesians below as well. Hearing and believing precedes the Holy Spirit that we were sealed with not before belief.
Ephesians 1:13
“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit
conclusion: as we read in these SALVIFIC passages there is a consistent order.
1- hearing the word, the gospel
2- believing the gospel
3- receiving the gospel
4- calling upon the Lord
5- confessing Jesus is Lord
6- resulting in the new birth, born of God, salvation, eternal life, regeneration, born again
hope this helps !!!
brightfame52
Well-known member
Faith in Christ requires a New Heart for the old heart by nature is alienated from God, and blind observe Eph 4:18
Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
So God in regeneration gives the redeemed a New Heart Ezk 36 26
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Sorry scripture refuted you
As faith preceeds regeneration
John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
John 5:24–25 (KJV 1900) — 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
John 3:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 5:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
John 6:53 (KJV 1900) — 53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Faith in Christ requires a New Heart for the old heart by nature is alienated from God, and blind observe Eph 4:18
Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
So God in regeneration gives the redeemed a New Heart Ezk 36 26
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Nothing there states God irresistibly caused them to believe or infused faith in their heart
Rather they received the word (active voice)
brightfame52
Well-known member
Faith is effectually caused because God is to be thanked when the word is received in a conversion experience 1 Thess 2:13
13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
And this is because they were elect as we see in 1 Thess 1:4-6
4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
5 For our gospel came not unto you[The elect] in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.
6 And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost.
Again
Nothing there states God effectually caused them to believe or infused faith in their heart
Rather they received the word (active voice)
brightfame52
Well-known member
Faith is effectually caused because God is to be thanked when the word is received in a conversion experience 1 Thess 2:13
13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
And this is because they were elect as we see in 1 Thess 1:4-6
4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
5 For our gospel came not unto you[The elect] in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.
6 And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost.
Sorry the text does not state God unilaterally irresistibly causes men to believe
You add to scripture
brightfame52
Well-known member
Faith is effectually caused because God is to be thanked when the word is received in a conversion experience 1 Thess 2:13
13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
And this is because they were elect as we see in 1 Thess 1:4-6
4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
5 For our gospel came not unto you[The elect] in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.
6 And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost.
Jesus also said unless one is born again he CANNOT see the kingdom of God. David, Moses and Abraham, were they born again, Posses the Spirit?
civic
Well-known member
No one was born again until Pentecost. And belief preceded the new birth.
Why do you deny Jesus teaching on the new birth that was to happen at Pentecost?
You are denying Jesus teaching on the Holy Spirit. No one was born again until Pentecost period. The disciples were not born again until Pentecost. Jesus taught and told them to tarry until Pentecost when the Holy Spirit would be with them and IN THEM. Not before Pentecost. It was at that time when they would be transformed inwardly by the power of the Holy Spirit working in them and through them. As Jesus told them it is better for you that I go away and send the Helper/Comforter who would lead them and guide them into all truth and bring to them remembrance of everything he had taught them. Until Pentecost they were still in hiding and fearful, carnal and in the flesh, not in the Spirit.
John 7:39
By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.
John 12:16
At first His disciples did not understand these things, but after Jesus was glorified they remembered what had been done to Him, and they realized that these very things had also been written about Him.
Jesus promised the disciples He would bring to their remembrance when Pentecost came and the Holy Spirit would be in them and guide them into all truth.
John 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you
John 16:7
"It is expedient for you that I go away; for if I go not away the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart I will send him unto you."
John 16:13
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.
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civic
Well-known member
This is for doubting @Presby02
Did the disciples have the SEAL of the Holy Spirit? NO not until PENTECOST.
Ephesians 1
When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.
If you have not the Spirit you are none of His.
Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man has not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
1 Corinthians 2
The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.
And here is a newsflash the disciples did not understand so many things prior to Pentecost as Jesus promised He would bring to remembrance the things He had taught them.
John 15:26
“When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me. 27 And you also must testify, for you have been with me from the beginning.
John 16:7
But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.
John 16:13-14
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you.
John 16:17-18
At this, some of his disciples said to one another, “What does he mean by saying, ‘In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me,’ and ‘Because I am going to the Father’?” 18 They kept asking, “What does he mean by ‘a little while’? We don’t understand what he is saying.”
Jesus had told them NUMEROUS times about His passion yet they did not understand this until the Spirit was in them. Once again proving 1 Corinthians 2 the natural man cannot understand the things of the Spirit.
Matthew 16:8-11
Aware of their discussion, Jesus asked, “You of little faith, why are you talking among yourselves about having no bread? 9 Do you still not understand? Don’t you remember the five loaves for the five thousand, and how many basketfuls you gathered? 10 Or the seven loaves for the four thousand, and how many basketfuls you gathered? 11 How is it you don’t understand that I was not talking to you about bread?
Mark 7:18
And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;
Jesus Predicts His Death a Third Time
Luke 18:31
Jesus took the Twelve aside and told them, “We are going up to Jerusalem,and everything that is written by the prophets about the Son of Man will be fulfilled. 32 He will be delivered over to the Gentiles. They will mock him, insult him and spit on him;33 they will flog him and kill him. On the third day he will rise again.”
34 The disciples did not understand any of this. Its meaning was hidden from them, and they did not know what he was talking about
I can provide NUMEROUS other scriptures showing the disciples did not understand Jesus teachings until after Pentecost when they became born again believers.
hope this helps !!!
Did the disciples have the SEAL of the Holy Spirit? NO not until PENTECOST.
Ephesians 1
When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.
If you have not the Spirit you are none of His.
Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man has not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
1 Corinthians 2
The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.
And here is a newsflash the disciples did not understand so many things prior to Pentecost as Jesus promised He would bring to remembrance the things He had taught them.
John 15:26
“When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me. 27 And you also must testify, for you have been with me from the beginning.
John 16:7
But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.
John 16:13-14
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you.
John 16:17-18
At this, some of his disciples said to one another, “What does he mean by saying, ‘In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me,’ and ‘Because I am going to the Father’?” 18 They kept asking, “What does he mean by ‘a little while’? We don’t understand what he is saying.”
Jesus had told them NUMEROUS times about His passion yet they did not understand this until the Spirit was in them. Once again proving 1 Corinthians 2 the natural man cannot understand the things of the Spirit.
Matthew 16:8-11
Aware of their discussion, Jesus asked, “You of little faith, why are you talking among yourselves about having no bread? 9 Do you still not understand? Don’t you remember the five loaves for the five thousand, and how many basketfuls you gathered? 10 Or the seven loaves for the four thousand, and how many basketfuls you gathered? 11 How is it you don’t understand that I was not talking to you about bread?
Mark 7:18
And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;
Jesus Predicts His Death a Third Time
Luke 18:31
Jesus took the Twelve aside and told them, “We are going up to Jerusalem,and everything that is written by the prophets about the Son of Man will be fulfilled. 32 He will be delivered over to the Gentiles. They will mock him, insult him and spit on him;33 they will flog him and kill him. On the third day he will rise again.”
34 The disciples did not understand any of this. Its meaning was hidden from them, and they did not know what he was talking about
I can provide NUMEROUS other scriptures showing the disciples did not understand Jesus teachings until after Pentecost when they became born again believers.
hope this helps !!!
So old testament saints cannot enter the kingdom of heaven then.
"unless you are born again, you CANNOT see the kingdom of heaven."
Show all you like. I only need one.
"Unless you are born AGAIN, you cannot see the kingdom of heaven."
