Rapture Ready
- Thread starter Eleazar
- Start date
DavidTree
Well-known member
The Promise to the Saints is only to escape God's WRATH.
The Promise to the Philadelphia church is only to the Saints who persevere in patience and "endure to the end".
Now where else did CHRIST say this? = in the GOSPEL = the SAME GOSPEL where HE Promises to KEEP us!
L.A.M.B.
Active member
Isaiah 2:19-22
19 And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.
20 In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats;21 To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.
22 Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of ?
Revelation 6:14-17
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us and HIDE US FROM THE FACE OF HIM THAT SITTETH ON THE THRONE, and from the wrath of the LAMB:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Romans 1:18 -
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
John 3:36 - He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Isaiah 26:21 - For, behold, the
LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
Revelation 20:15 - And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
2 Peter 2:9- The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
Matthew 10:28 -
And fear not them which kill the body, but ARE NOT ABLE TO KILL THE SOUL: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
John 15:6 -
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Luke 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
Jesus took our wrath from God that was our due bc we were unrighteous and sinful against him. We are preserved against the wrath of God in him alone. He expects our endurance to the end, either in the ending of this age or our lives in him by death. Do any think themselves better than the Apostles or any Christian that has died for their faith or are still dying for it TODAY ? This theology is NOT the doctrine of God but of man and never has it been so !
Matthew 24:8-14
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 BUT HE THAT SHALL ENDURE UNTO THE END, THE SAME SHALL BE SAVED.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
The end will be an horror like no other,ever, but our ONLY safety is in him. Man, even they of ones own household will deliver the believers up during the antichrist time to either accept or reject the mark of the beast by denying Christ, EVEN UNTO DEATH !
Grace ambassador
Well-known member
Amen - faith which worketh by love! I believe the view of "the rapture Of The Body Of Christ"
does have a high importance of: "How Exactly we are going to prepare for our [ Extremely
and Highly ] Important Judgment Day (1 Corinthians 3:8-15)" - ie:
post-trib ideas I have been taught:
1) prepare by "hoarding/stocking up for seven years of food" because you
"won't take the mark of the beast"?
2) "Flee to the mountains"? or.
3) "flee to another country"?
Confusing, eh?
Pre-trib prepares Biblically [ following Bible Study Rules! ],
By "faith which worketh by love" (Galatians 5:6):
1) Using faithfully, not hoarding, God-given money to
"give to them in need" (Ephesians 4:28)
2) a) Getting our [ Heavenly ] Body Of Christ Gospel Of Grace (Ephesians 2:8-9;
1 Corinthians 15:3-to the lost, teaching them, after salvation, to "not be looking
for the Wicked one," But to be "looking for our Blessed Hope!" ie:
"looking, watching, and patiently waiting For The HOLY One, The LORD Jesus Christ!"
because, after Great Grace Departure, Ending This [ Heavenly ] Gospel. then...
Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ!” (online):
b) ...Then God Resumes Prophecy, for [ earthly ] Israel in which their other gospel
is that of "the kingdom" preached by 144,000 "sealed" Jews, Two powerful
witnesses, and an angel "to preach to them that dwell on the earth"
(Mat_4:23, 9:35; Mat_24:14; Mar_1:14-15; Rev 14:6)
Of course, if these things are not of high importance, or "wrongly divided lies," thenmaybe we should just abandon prayerfully/Carefully studying them, and then
kindly/humbly discussing them?
humbly and Kindly asking @L.A.M.B. / @DavidTree? God Loves you so do I.
And, like humble @civic says: "hope this helps"
ChrisE
DavidTree
Well-known member
The TRUTH is everywhere, from Genesis to Revelation = SAME TRUTH
Isaiah 26:21 is another Key verse that the LORD Jesus spoke of in His Gospel
For, behold, the
LORD cometh out of His Place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
DavidTree
Well-known member
@Grace ambassador says: "Of course, if these things are not of high importance, or "wrongly divided lies," thenAmen - faith which worketh by love! I believe the view of "the rapture Of The Body Of Christ"
does have a high importance of: "How Exactly we are going to prepare for our [ Extremely
and Highly ] Important Judgment Day (1 Corinthians 3:8-15)" - ie:
post-trib ideas I have been taught:
1) prepare by "hoarding/stocking up for seven years of food" because you"won't take the mark of the beast"?2) "Flee to the mountains"? or.3) "flee to another country"?
Confusing, eh?
Pre-trib prepares Biblically [ following Bible Study Rules! ],
By "faith which worketh by love" (Galatians 5:6):
1) Using faithfully, not hoarding, God-given money to"give to them in need" (Ephesians 4:28)2) a) Getting our [ Heavenly ] Body Of Christ Gospel Of Grace (Ephesians 2:8-9;1 Corinthians 15:3-to the lost, teaching them, after salvation, to "not be lookingfor the Wicked one," But to be "looking for our Blessed Hope!" ie:"looking, watching, and patiently waiting For The HOLY One, The LORD Jesus Christ!"because, after Great Grace Departure, Ending This [ Heavenly ] Gospel. then...Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ!” (online):
b) ...Then God Resumes Prophecy, for [ earthly ] Israel in which their other gospelis that of "the kingdom" preached by 144,000 "sealed" Jews, Two powerfulwitnesses, and an angel "to preach to them that dwell on the earth"(Mat_4:23, 9:35; Mat_24:14; Mar_1:14-15; Rev 14:6)Of course, if these things are not of high importance, or "wrongly divided lies," then
maybe we should just abandon studying and kindly/humbly discussing them?
humbly and Kindly asking @L.A.M.B. / @DavidTree? God Loves you so do I.
And, like humble @civic says: "hope this helps"
ChrisE
maybe we should just abandon studying and kindly/humbly discussing them?"
What the LORD requires of everyone is:
a.) Love the LORD your GOD with all you heart, mind, soul and strength
b.) Love the Brethren fervently
c.) Love your neighbor as yourself
To suggest that we stop studying God's Word is equivalent to the 'Serpents' suggestion to Eve.....................
The True Path of Righteousness speaks these words:
Jesus says: “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’ ”
Proverbs 30:5-6
Every word of God is pure;
He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
Do not add to His words,
Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.
1 Timothy 2:14-19
Remind them of these things, charging them before the Lord not to strive about words to no profit, to the ruin of the hearers. Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.”
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DavidTree
Well-known member
@civicAmen - faith which worketh by love! I believe the view of "the rapture Of The Body Of Christ"
does have a high importance of: "How Exactly we are going to prepare for our [ Extremely
and Highly ] Important Judgment Day (1 Corinthians 3:8-15)" - ie:
post-trib ideas I have been taught:
1) prepare by "hoarding/stocking up for seven years of food" because you"won't take the mark of the beast"?2) "Flee to the mountains"? or.3) "flee to another country"?
Confusing, eh?
Pre-trib prepares Biblically [ following Bible Study Rules! ],
By "faith which worketh by love" (Galatians 5:6):
1) Using faithfully, not hoarding, God-given money to"give to them in need" (Ephesians 4:28)2) a) Getting our [ Heavenly ] Body Of Christ Gospel Of Grace (Ephesians 2:8-9;1 Corinthians 15:3-to the lost, teaching them, after salvation, to "not be lookingfor the Wicked one," But to be "looking for our Blessed Hope!" ie:"looking, watching, and patiently waiting For The HOLY One, The LORD Jesus Christ!"because, after Great Grace Departure, Ending This [ Heavenly ] Gospel. then...Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ!” (online):
b) ...Then God Resumes Prophecy, for [ earthly ] Israel in which their other gospelis that of "the kingdom" preached by 144,000 "sealed" Jews, Two powerfulwitnesses, and an angel "to preach to them that dwell on the earth"(Mat_4:23, 9:35; Mat_24:14; Mar_1:14-15; Rev 14:6)Of course, if these things are not of high importance, or "wrongly divided lies," then
maybe we should just abandon prayerfully/Carefully studying them, and then
kindly/humbly discussing them?
humbly and Kindly asking @L.A.M.B. / @DavidTree? God Loves you so do I.
And, like humble @civic says: "hope this helps"
ChrisE
P.S. - In case you missed this, division does not come from believing every word of God.
It only comes when we fail to BELIEVE "every word that comes from the Mouth of God"
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L.A.M.B.
Active member
I have no personal angst against you nor any other for what beliefs one holds but the truth is God's word, not any reformer nor man such as Darby to make their private interpretation to be God's doctrine !Amen - faith which worketh by love! I believe the view of "the rapture Of The Body Of Christ"
does have a high importance of: "How Exactly we are going to prepare for our [ Extremely
and Highly ] Important Judgment Day (1 Corinthians 3:8-15)" - ie:
post-trib ideas I have been taught:
1) prepare by "hoarding/stocking up for seven years of food" because you"won't take the mark of the beast"?2) "Flee to the mountains"? or.3) "flee to another country"?
Confusing, eh?
Pre-trib prepares Biblically [ following Bible Study Rules! ],
By "faith which worketh by love" (Galatians 5:6):
1) Using faithfully, not hoarding, God-given money to"give to them in need" (Ephesians 4:28)2) a) Getting our [ Heavenly ] Body Of Christ Gospel Of Grace (Ephesians 2:8-9;1 Corinthians 15:3-to the lost, teaching them, after salvation, to "not be lookingfor the Wicked one," But to be "looking for our Blessed Hope!" ie:"looking, watching, and patiently waiting For The HOLY One, The LORD Jesus Christ!"because, after Great Grace Departure, Ending This [ Heavenly ] Gospel. then...Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ!” (online):
b) ...Then God Resumes Prophecy, for [ earthly ] Israel in which their other gospelis that of "the kingdom" preached by 144,000 "sealed" Jews, Two powerfulwitnesses, and an angel "to preach to them that dwell on the earth"(Mat_4:23, 9:35; Mat_24:14; Mar_1:14-15; Rev 14:6)Of course, if these things are not of high importance, or "wrongly divided lies," then
maybe we should just abandon prayerfully/Carefully studying them, and then
kindly/humbly discussing them?
humbly and Kindly asking @L.A.M.B. / @DavidTree? God Loves you so do I.
And, like humble @civic says: "hope this helps"
ChrisE
As far as it goes, if I speak error I too hope for correction in love and if it was taken NOT in love then, I apologize.
We are all trying to live for God and it must be by God's word. Any of us can wrongly receive & believe a thing. It does not mean that we are judging the salvation of another.
I hope to go not only under my own studies but be enlightened if I err, by others more spiritual or seasoned than myself for iron sharpens iron.
I mean no offense and will now bow out of this thread.
DavidTree
Well-known member
Videos of pre-trib preachers are a dime a dozen.
Are you able to do what the Bereans did in Acts 17:10-11?
Then the brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea. When they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews.
These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.
SEARCH the scriptures and find a single scripture that says:
the LORD will pre-trib rapture His Church
or
the LORD will not permit His Church to suffer tribulation
or
The LORD will Come for His sainst/elect/church BEFORE the Antichrist
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DavidTree
Well-known member
@civic @Grace ambassador @Eleazar
This is what is missing and NEEDED
Acts 17:10-11
Then the brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea.
When they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews.
These were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.
a.) they received the word with all readiness,
b.) searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.
Conclusion: the SCRIPTURES alone determine if there is a pre-trib rapture AND there is not one that declares pre-trib
simple abc's for God's People = Sola Scriptura
This is what is missing and NEEDED
Acts 17:10-11
Then the brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea.
When they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews.
These were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.
a.) they received the word with all readiness,
b.) searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.
Conclusion: the SCRIPTURES alone determine if there is a pre-trib rapture AND there is not one that declares pre-trib
simple abc's for God's People = Sola Scriptura
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Bronson
Active member
Excellent video here's a short one that I enjoyed/
View Video> Did John Darby invent the Rapture in 1830?
Handaan
Active member
No he did not, It's a conspiracy theory.
CALLED THE BIG LIE
One of the things that facilitated the Nazi rise to power in Germany was their propaganda approach called “The Big Lie.” If you told a big enough lie often enough then the people would come to believe it. This the Nazis did well. This is what anti-pre tribulationists like John Bray and Dave MacPherson have done.
Apparently the big lie about the origins of the pre-trib rapture as penetrated the thinking of the late Robert Van Kampen and Marvin Rosenthal to the extent that they have adopted such a falsehood as true. This is amazing in light of the fact that their own pre-wrath viewpoint is not much more than fifteen years old itself. Rosenthal must have changed his mind about pre-trib origins between the time he wrote his book The Pre-wrath Rapture of the Church (1990) and the recent articles since, in the former, he says that the pre-trib rapture “can be traced back to John Darby and the Plymouth Brethren in the year 1830.”
Rosenthal goes on to say, “Some scholars, seeking to prove error by association, have attempted (perhaps unfairly) to trace its origin back two years earlier to a charismatic, visionary woman named Margaret MacDonald.” Even this statement is in error, since the Margaret Macdonaldclaim has always been related to 1830, not 1828. However, Rosenthal is correct in his original assessment that these charges are “unfair” and probably spring out of a motive to “prove error by association,” known as the ad hominem argument.
Pre tribulationists have sought to defend against “The Big Lie” through direct inter action against the charges. In a rebuttal to these charges I made in 1990, I gave two major reasons why “The Big Lie” is not true.
First, it is doubtful that Margaret Macdonald’s “prophecy” contains any elements related to the pre-trib rapture.
Second, no one has ever demonstrated from actual facts of history that Darby was influenced by Macdonald’s “prophecy” even if it had (which it did not) contained pre-trib elements.8John Walvoord has said, The whole controversy as aroused by Dave MacPherson’s claims has so little supporting evidence, despite his careful research, that one wonders how he can write his book with a straight face. Pre tribulationalists should be indebted to Dave MacPherson for exposing the facts, namely, that there is no proof that MacDonald or Irving originated the pretribulation raptureteaching.9There is a third reason why MacPherson’s theory is wrong, Darby clearly held to an early form of the pre-trib rapture by January 1827. This is a full three years before MacPherson’s claim of 1830.
By Thomas Ice
Hosanna
Well-known member
Seriously folks some of the attacks on the pre-Tribulation rapture view are merely revivals of old and discredited theories. These are easily dismissed. Others, new and at first glance convincing, need to be answered. The rest are so bizarre I am amazed anyone accepts them.
The promise that our Lord could appear at any moment to take His church up to His Father’s house was delivered by the Lord Himself.
DO NOT let your hearts be troubled (distressed, agitated). You believe in and adhere to and trust in and rely on God; believe in and adhere to and trust in and rely also on Me.
2 In My Father’s house there are many dwelling places (homes). If it were not so, I would have told you; for I am going away to prepare a place for you.
3 And when (if) I go and make ready a place for you, I will come back again and will take you to Myself, that where I am you may be also
John 14:1–3.
Paul in Paul explains the rapture in1 Thessalonians 4:16-18:
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.
For more than nineteen centuries, many Bible-believing Christians have gained much comfort from this passage. But the relentless attacks of recent years. including some vicious distortions of the facts have prompted many to question its truth. The bad news is this has led to confusion for some and complacency for others, causing both to redirect their affections to “things on the earth” instead of “on things above”.
It's truly a shame that the recent assaults on the pre-Tribulation rapture view have left many Christians confused and in some cases disillusioned. Some have even abandoned this blessed hope, discarding their belief that the Lord could return at any moment.
20 He Who gives this warning and affirms and testifies to these things says, Yes (it is true). [Surely] I am coming quickly (swiftly, speedily). Amen (so let it be)! Yes, come, Lord Jesus!
Rev 22:20.
The promise that our Lord could appear at any moment to take His church up to His Father’s house was delivered by the Lord Himself.
DO NOT let your hearts be troubled (distressed, agitated). You believe in and adhere to and trust in and rely on God; believe in and adhere to and trust in and rely also on Me.
2 In My Father’s house there are many dwelling places (homes). If it were not so, I would have told you; for I am going away to prepare a place for you.
3 And when (if) I go and make ready a place for you, I will come back again and will take you to Myself, that where I am you may be also
John 14:1–3.
Paul in Paul explains the rapture in1 Thessalonians 4:16-18:
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.
For more than nineteen centuries, many Bible-believing Christians have gained much comfort from this passage. But the relentless attacks of recent years. including some vicious distortions of the facts have prompted many to question its truth. The bad news is this has led to confusion for some and complacency for others, causing both to redirect their affections to “things on the earth” instead of “on things above”.
It's truly a shame that the recent assaults on the pre-Tribulation rapture view have left many Christians confused and in some cases disillusioned. Some have even abandoned this blessed hope, discarding their belief that the Lord could return at any moment.
20 He Who gives this warning and affirms and testifies to these things says, Yes (it is true). [Surely] I am coming quickly (swiftly, speedily). Amen (so let it be)! Yes, come, Lord Jesus!
Rev 22:20.
Grace ambassador
Well-known member
Precious friend, this is a sad state of affairs, and the ones who do criticize it, usually in unkindness,
insist that we "show them The ONE verse" that teaches Great Grace Departure! Of course, this is
impossible for me, since in my own 18-month study, I had to dig Deep, with "all readiness of mind",
and assimilate more than 100-200 Rightly Divided Scriptures, in order to make a proper
[ "to see if these things are so" (Acts 17:11) ] Conclusion.
The above 'link' is exactly that, "The [about 100 verses] Conclusion," to the other 16 parts of the
Complete study. I have listed all these before, so that if any "were interested in kind discussion"
about them, and possibly supply any "necessary Corrections," but to date = "No interest!"
Thus, I am Encouraged and Comforted In The Lord's Truth, even if It is only for me, and others,
such as yourself.
Amen! Looking forward to meeting you in God's Great GloryLand. ♫
↑Precious friend, Please Be Very Richly Encouraged and Edified In The Lord
Jesus Christ, and In His Precious Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided!
Amen.
DavidTree
Well-known member
Can you find a single origin in the Scriptures of 'pre-trib' rapture???
SERIOUSLY now!
CLEAR Evidence is that you cannot find and post a single pre-trib rapture scripture.
No one questions the LORD'S Return = Second Coming
the LORD said HE is coming after the tribulation = Matthew ch24 , 1 Thess 4:13-18 , 2 Thess ch2 , 1 John ch2 and Revelation
Why do you not believe Him?
Division in the Body of Christ always comes from denying the words of God or adding to them what HE never said.
DavidTree
Well-known member
There is only one way to know if pre-trib rapture is the Big Lie or not!
Find in the Scripture if God said:
the LORD will pre-trib rapture His Church
or
the LORD will not permit His Church to suffer tribulation
or
The LORD will Come for His sainst/elect/church BEFORE the Antichrist
Bronson
Active member
After carefully studying of the bible plus scores of books, articles, and videos on both sides of this issue, I am convinced there is no reason to abandon my view that the pre-tribulation view is correct. The new attacks, much like the old ones, are simply unconvincing. After weighing the evidence, I am more persuaded than ever that we can still confidently believe in the pre-Tribulation rapture of the church.
We have not followed “cunningly devised fables” (2 Peter 1:16), visions and prophecies, or faulty Bible study, but instead can point to scriptural, historical, and logical reasons for believing that our Lord could return at any moment—the view that has rightly predominated in the evangelical, Bible-believing church for much of the last two centuries.
We have not followed “cunningly devised fables” (2 Peter 1:16), visions and prophecies, or faulty Bible study, but instead can point to scriptural, historical, and logical reasons for believing that our Lord could return at any moment—the view that has rightly predominated in the evangelical, Bible-believing church for much of the last two centuries.
Handaan
Active member
Exactly! Historically, belief in the any-moment-coming of Christ has three vital effects on Christians and their churches.
1. It produces holy living in an unholy society. John said, “Everyone who has this hope in Him [the return of Christ] purifies himself, just as He is pure” 1 John 3:3
2. It produces an evangelistic church of soul-winning Christians. When we believe Christ could appear at any moment, we seek to share Him with our friends lest they be left behind at His coming.
3. Belief in the imminent return of Christ makes Christians and churches want to develop a worldwide missionary vision of reaching the lost for Christ.
To top that off we have more reason to believe that Christ will come in our lifetime than any generation since He ascended into heaven and promised to return. Naturally, we should eagerly desire to reach our friends with His good news.
1. It produces holy living in an unholy society. John said, “Everyone who has this hope in Him [the return of Christ] purifies himself, just as He is pure” 1 John 3:3
2. It produces an evangelistic church of soul-winning Christians. When we believe Christ could appear at any moment, we seek to share Him with our friends lest they be left behind at His coming.
3. Belief in the imminent return of Christ makes Christians and churches want to develop a worldwide missionary vision of reaching the lost for Christ.
To top that off we have more reason to believe that Christ will come in our lifetime than any generation since He ascended into heaven and promised to return. Naturally, we should eagerly desire to reach our friends with His good news.
DavidTree
Well-known member
What evidence?
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