'Interpretation' Of Prophecy

[armylngst]

Yep. I addressed that point, and I did so multiple times.

There will be no shifting of the onus (at least not until I get an answer to the question(s) I asked. I will not participate in the decit of asking me questions and never getting answers. I will not participate in the disingenuousness of posting content and then refusing to answer question directly related to that content. I will not participate in a one-sided non-conversation and call it a discussion or dialogue. I will not participate in any attempt to shift the non-conversation away from the op to anyone else's views. The op and its defenders can either evidence (and maybe prove) the o, or they cannot. Rank speculation is not cogent discourse, and it most definitely sound doctrine. The matter of rank speculation is particularly important when it comes to modern futurism because there hasn't been a single accurate end times prediction in modern futurism in the 200 years since it was invented.

Stop hijacking the thread and speak to the OP. I kept with the OP, where Luke 21 and Matthew 24 speak directly to whether it is future or past. You won't speak to Luke 21 and Matthew 24. Luke 21 speaks directly to the Great Diaspora which basically came to an end (beginning of the end) in 1948. So yes, it actually does have accurate predictions like Daniel did. I stay away from speculation, but if I indulged for a moment, it is said that if you take the Leviticus principle, and multiply it by the length of time given for the last exile of Israel, and run the days from when the final exile started, what you get is 1948. I don't blindly accept that, but it raises an eyebrow a little. As does running the 70 week prophecy from the start of that decree and getting the day the Triumphal Entry would have occurred in the year of that day. Perfectly. Either people are on to something, or we at least get to know how truthful God is when He gives a prophecy, right down to the day.

Therefore, if you, or anyone else, are going to defend and support this op then it is incumbent upon you to answer the question asked and do it for the reasons I have already posted.

When will the events listed in this op occur? Please be as specific as you feel comfortable being.

That is not the question raised by the OP. You did not give the op, therefore you too are bound to the op. The Op presents these things as future, which I agree with. You ask me to stand in Jesus face, deny what He has said, take up arms against that, and put a date on it. And I hold you to that before God that that is what you are doing. My conscience screams every time I read what you ask. It tells me you are raising arms against what Jesus has said. That is how seriously I take what Jesus said. When someone gives a date, I DO NOT LISTEN. My immediate response is you are wrong, and sin for giving a date.

Otherwise, I will post as if none of this op's supporters have a clue what they're posting about. If and when scripture is misused I, again, will respond accordingly, noting the improper use of scripture and the failure of the op to be built on correctly rendered scripture. These are not unusual standards. EVERYONE should be asking, "When, exactly, specifically, will 'X' happen?" whenever they here some preacher prognosticating. It is a good and valid inquiry. It is an inquiry that identifies false teachers so that is another reason why the question should always be asked.

Again, the answer is it is in the future. And if you pay attention to what is happening around us in light of scripture, we are living in very interesting, very peculiar times. For instance, scripture states that our sole habitation will be Earth. Habitation. That does not cover trips to the moon and back, or spending a few months on the ISS. It does include Elon Musk saying we will be on Mars within a decade, in habitation. Those who go aren't coming back. So, if scripture is true and Elon Musk is being truthful, or mostly truthful, something is going to happen in the future that prevents scripture being violated.

Are you all aware David Jeremiah has never made an accurate prediction? Neither have Hal Lindsay, John Hagee, Michael Youssef, Gary Hamrick, and all the other modern futurists (over the last 200 years). How many of you are familiar with The Great Disappointment? How about Robert Fitzpatrick, author of "The Doomsday Code," who was so committed to dispensational-style, modern futurist premillennialism and the predictions of Harold Camping that he sold everything and spent it all on billboards announcing the return of Christ?

I am aware only in passing, because I never believed them. I don't read that, frankly, crap. If you knew anything about Harold Camping, you would know to question everything. It has been a very long time, but everything I heard would lead to question whether he was even saved. Intellectual assent perhaps, but actual salvation? In question.

I can't tell you what I feel right now, I don't understand it and I don't know. I don't understand what happened. This is the year, all the calculation say this is the year, It is locked in for 2011, so I don't understand why nothing has happened yet.

I have a feeling God pushes it off more every time someone makes a prediction. (That is dark humor that will probably go over your head since I'm not going to explain it.)

This failure has led to thousands of people leaving the Church and millions more never entering. Who in their right mind would want to join a group of people who constantly fruitlessly prognosticate, who cannot and will not answer some of the most basic questions directly related to their beliefs, who attack others for simply asking these questions, who constantly try to change the subject and put the onus on others?

Why? They didn't listen to Peter. Peter said don't listen to those people. Our eyes are to be on Christ. Why are your eyes on people? Why are you allowing yourself to be distracted? Why would you put yourself at risk of having your own faith shipwrecked? Focus on Christ. Don't focus on what other people are doing or saying. I watch. I observe. What I see tells me that Jesus is coming soon. Just as it has always been... soon. Don't play the fool like the foolish servant who for lack of a date time group on the return of his master, partied, just wasted all that time, and then the master came in the door. That is the purpose of imminent. We don't know when it will be, so we better be busy about His business so when He opens the door, He sees us enduring/persevering until He comes.

There are multiple reasons for asking the question I asked and so, far, no one has an answer.

When will the events listed in this op occur? Please be as specific as you feel comfortable being.

Yes, and as soon as I get and answer to when these things will happen from the one asserting the op (or one of its defenders) I will gladly discuss that answer.

When will the events listed in this op occur? Please be as specific as you feel comfortable being.

In the future. I will not be made to make you sin by letting you bait me into standing in the face of Christ against His words. Do I feel it will be soon. Yes, I feel that it is imminent. Just as it was imminent 2000 years ago. I feel it could be within the century, but I don't trust that. I feel it could be within the next decade. I don't trust that. I do trust what God told us in scripture, and that we are to watch and wait/pray. Have extra oil with the lamps because we don't know how long He may tarry. Most of all, as God has told us in the New Testament... endure. Persevere. Don't lose heart. Once we see certain signs, God says look up, for your redemption draweth nigh.

 

[JoshebB]

In the future. I will not be made to make you sin by letting you bait me into standing in the face of Christ against His words.

So you do not know, resort to ad hominem, and prove what I posted correct. I appreciate the conformation. Thanks. Does any other modern futurist want to give speaking on behalf of @Grace ambassador a try? Please feel free to answer the question with as much specificity as you're comfortable with.

When will the events listed in this op occur?

When, specifically, will the events listed in this op occur?


.

 

[armylngst]

So you do not know, resort to ad hominem, and prove what I posted correct. I appreciate the conformation. Thanks. Does any other modern futurist want to give speaking on behalf of @Grace ambassador a try? Please feel free to answer the question with as much specificity as you're comfortable with.

When will the events listed in this op occur?

When, specifically, will the events listed in this op occur?


.

Okay, Okay. Just for you I will seal you in sin. It will be 2030. There you have it. You made me sin against my conscience. Read Corinthians to find what that means for you, especially since it was willful.

 

[JoshebB]

It will be 2030.

And what will you do if 2030 passes and nothing listed in the op has occurred?

Will you repent? Will you repent of the practice of posting baseless predictions? Will you repent of the practice of posting predictions that don't come true? Will you repent of the thinking and learning that begot those practices? Will you begin re-evaluating the teachers who taught you to behave so fruitlessly? Will you repent from providing a false witness to outsiders and besmirching the reputation of Christ and the testimony of the gospel in the eyes of non-believers? Will you repent from giving non-believers reasons not to believe? Will you spend the five years after 2030 doing something more fruitful for God and His kingdom, something in place of making prognostications that do not happen and teaching others to look for, to expect, things that never happen?

Or will you merely adjust the dates of your predictions and continue making them?


Once again: Do not shy away from these questions. Most modern futurists refuse to engage these matters and thereby refuse to answer these questions. Just as there is a long, long, long history in modern futurism of failed predictions, there is an equally long history of failed prognosticators never repenting. There is a long history of false prognosticators changing their time frames and hiding behind "no one knows" as they tell everyone they know it will happen soon.


It is time modern futurists began taking an honest, engaging look at their own practices and the thinking, teachings, and doctrines that cause these misguided behaviors. Do you, @armylngst, have the courage to do that? If so, then answer the questions asked and resist the urge to post red herring, non sequitur, ad hominem, strawman, false equivalence, and anything else but honest (to the best of your ability), direct, specific answers to the questions asked. Even if you hold on to the modern futurist eschatology, do it better than you've ever done it before, do it better than every other modern futurist. Do not be another modern futurist who preaches to the choir and then provides answers that amount to "meh" when asked about your won claims. Don't be that guy. Answer the questions asked. Move the discussion forward. Maybe it will mutually edify the both of us and all the lurkers.


Ephesians 4:25-32
Therefore, laying aside falsehood, speak truth each one of you with his neighbor, for we are members of one another........... Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear. Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.

What will you do if 2030 comes and goes and nothing listed in this op has occurred?
.

 

[MTMattie]

What will you do if 2030 comes and goes and nothing listed in this op has occurred?
.

Just an opinion but I pray that it will not be that long.

Maranatha,

Amen, amen

 

[JoshebB]

Just an opinion but I pray that it will not be that long.

Me, too, but that is immaterial to the point being made.

There is only one eschatological viewpoint that teaches its adherents to constantly post prognostications that never happen. There's only one theological pov that teaches its adherents to chronically undermine the presentation of the gospel by warning non-Christians to prepare for events that do not happen when they say the events will happen. There is only one theology in all of Christendom that teaches its adherents to make claims about the future and then evade questions about those claims. There's only one theology that teaches an end times viewpoint that compromises core Christian doctrines of Christology, soteriology, ecclesiology, and imminence.


And it is very difficult to get those adherents to honestly engage discussion these problems in a forthcoming manner. We're way beyond mere evidence here, this thread proves the difficulty. It's sad because there is no reason for the obfuscation present in this thread. It'd be nice if Jesus came back tomorrow but that is not possible in modern futurism, especially not the Dispensational view!!!

And I am betting many of the modern futurists here haven't thought that through.

 

[armylngst]

And what will you do if 2030 passes and nothing listed in the op has occurred?

Nothing. You asked for a date, and I used the approximate time in reality when Jesus died as the basis. I added 2000 years to that, and said 2030. (2033 is assumed arbitrarily, with the belief that Jesus was born in 0 AD, which is not accurate, but close.)

Will you repent? Will you repent of the practice of posting baseless predictions? Will you repent of the practice of posting predictions that don't come true? Will you repent of the thinking and learning that begot those practices? Will you begin re-evaluating the teachers who taught you to behave so fruitlessly? Will you repent from providing a false witness to outsiders and besmirching the reputation of Christ and the testimony of the gospel in the eyes of non-believers? Will you repent from giving non-believers reasons not to believe? Will you spend the five years after 2030 doing something more fruitful for God and His kingdom, something in place of making prognostications that do not happen and teaching others to look for, to expect, things that never happen?

I repented the moment I wrote it, however it is obvious that you don't care about the stain of sin you brought upon your own soul. Something that stands between you and me, which, according to Paul, therefore stands between you and God... through me.

Or will you merely adjust the dates of your predictions and continue making them?

I still don't have a favored date, but you forced against your Savior in your deeply rooted pride.

Once again: Do not shy away from these questions. Most modern futurists refuse to engage these matters and thereby refuse to answer these questions. Just as there is a long, long, long history in modern futurism of failed predictions, there is an equally long history of failed prognosticators never repenting. There is a long history of false prognosticators changing their time frames and hiding behind "no one knows" as they tell everyone they know it will happen soon.

It is time modern futurists began taking an honest, engaging look at their own practices and the thinking, teachings, and doctrines that cause these misguided behaviors. Do you, @armylngst, have the courage to do that? If so, then answer the questions asked and resist the urge to post red herring, non sequitur, ad hominem, strawman, false equivalence, and anything else but honest (to the best of your ability), direct, specific answers to the questions asked. Even if you hold on to the modern futurist eschatology, do it better than you've ever done it before, do it better than every other modern futurist. Do not be another modern futurist who preaches to the choir and then provides answers that amount to "meh" when asked about your won claims. Don't be that guy. Answer the questions asked. Move the discussion forward. Maybe it will mutually edify the both of us and all the lurkers.

Your understanding is lensed through pride. I have already stated that I personally put no date on His return because of what Jesus had said. You deny what Jesus has said to attack those who don't agree with you. You hijack OPs that are clear that it is future without a date. I am clear that if someone puts a date on his return, they are wrong. I question the salvation of some of them, but that is because if you look at everything they teach, it is OFF. Far worse then there eschatological stance. Eschatology doesn't save. There is a reason why scripture calls us to persevere, and to endure. If the world is going to end imminently, and it means soon, like tomorrow, there is no reason to persevere or endure. Why would we be commanded to persever and endure, and if we do we will be rewarded? God is going to tarry until the elect are gathered in, that none of the elect be denied their salvation day, and thus perish.

Ephesians 4:25-32
Therefore, laying aside falsehood, speak truth each one of you with his neighbor, for we are members of one another........... Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear. Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.

What will you do if 2030 comes and goes and nothing listed in this op has occurred?

I will continue to endure and persevere, since I don't have a set date in my mind. 2030 is because of you, and my frustration, which I immediately took to God. Not sure why you deny Him in it. Just how deep is your pride. I just can't imagine that it is so much deeper then mine, but I am surprised each time you comment. It's deep.

 

[MTMattie]

Nothing. You asked for a date, and I used the approximate time in reality when Jesus died as the basis. I added 2000 years to that, and said 2030. (2033 is assumed arbitrarily, with the belief that Jesus was born in 0 AD, which is not accurate, but close.)

One comment. From extensive research it is closer to 4 BC

I repented the moment I wrote it, however it is obvious that you don't care about the stain of sin you brought upon your own soul. Something that stands between you and me, which, according to Paul, therefore stands between you and God... through me.

I still don't have a favored date, but you forced against your Savior in your deeply rooted pride.

Your understanding is lensed through pride. I have already stated that I personally put no date on His return because of what Jesus had said. You deny what Jesus has said to attack those who don't agree with you. You hijack OPs that are clear that it is future without a date. I am clear that if someone puts a date on his return, they are wrong. I question the salvation of some of them, but that is because if you look at everything they teach, it is OFF. Far worse then there eschatological stance. Eschatology doesn't save. There is a reason why scripture calls us to persevere, and to endure. If the world is going to end imminently, and it means soon, like tomorrow, there is no reason to persevere or endure. Why would we be commanded to persever and endure, and if we do we will be rewarded? God is going to tarry until the elect are gathered in, that none of the elect be denied their salvation day, and thus perish.

I will continue to endure and persevere, since I don't have a set date in my mind. 2030 is because of you, and my frustration, which I immediately took to God. Not sure why you deny Him in it. Just how deep is your pride. I just can't imagine that it is so much deeper then mine, but I am surprised each time you comment. It's deep.

 

[armylngst]

Me, too, but that is immaterial to the point being made.

There is only one eschatological viewpoint that teaches its adherents to constantly post prognostications that never happen.

A lie. Preterism and partial preterism are built on prognostications that never happened. They can't even get the past right.

There's only one theological pov that teaches its adherents to chronically undermine the presentation of the gospel by warning non-Christians to prepare for events that do not happen when they say the events will happen.

Never happened. It doesn't teach that at all. Now, there are those who have taken it upon themselves to go in the face of Christ and put a date on things, and those who seek to shame fellow believers by force. (Again, in the face of Christ.) The events are in the future, however, I do feel like it is coming up soon, but that soon could be a century a way for all I know.

There is only one theology in all of Christendom that teaches its adherents to make claims about the future and then evade questions about those claims. There's only one theology that teaches an end times viewpoint that compromises core Christian doctrines of Christology, soteriology, ecclesiology, and imminence.

I haven't evaded questions, except when you question Christ Himself. How dare He not put a date on it, right? It doesn't matter that He didn't even know, right? Perhaps you will be ashamed on that day?

And it is very difficult to get those adherents to honestly engage discussion these problems in a forthcoming manner. We're way beyond mere evidence here, this thread proves the difficulty. It's sad because there is no reason for the obfuscation present in this thread. It'd be nice if Jesus came back tomorrow but that is not possible in modern futurism, especially not the Dispensational view!!!

Jesus gave a list of sign that would occur before He returns, that is before a Great Tribulation falls on the world, that is beyond any since the beginning of history, to Jesus day, to the end of time. Jesus' words, not mine. I spoke to you about this once, and you spent your time undermining Jesus' words. Attacking Him.

And I am betting many of the modern futurists here haven't thought that through.

The rapture can happen tomorrow. It could happen tonight. The end times may have already started, because there are no prophecies left to be fulfilled before they start. There are prophecies left to be fulfilled DURING the last days, but all preceeding prophecies have been fulfilled. Again, who are you (or me) to question God's will in this? What did Jesus tell His disiples when they asked Him "Will you now return the Kingdom to Israel?" He didn't say no, that isn't going happen. He said it isn't for you to know the times and epochs established by the authority of the Father. In other words, it is a time/epoch that has been established by the Father, but it is not for us to know when. It is for us to be out there being His ambassadors. If He is already here, or if the Millennial Kingdom has already come in some way, why does He need ambassadors?