Secret, invisible coming?

[SteveB]

You fail to address the scripture and instead involve yourself in ad hominem

If you believe what I've posted was ad hominem, file a complaint with forum mgmt.

it is a tactic of those who have no answer and are simply unwilling to receive correction

Actually, it's a practice used to get people to think more clearly about the repeated attempts to get you to walk away, especially when you refuse to engage in adult conversations, and continue ignoring what you're told.

......[snipped].....

 

[TomL]

If you believe what I've posted was ad hominem, file a complaint with forum mgmt.

Actually, it's a practice used to get people to think more clearly about the repeated attempts to get you to walk away, especially when you refuse to engage in adult conversations, and continue ignoring what you're told.

Still not addressing any rebuttal, with yet another example of that type of failure

Here is the desolation

Luke 21:20–28 (KJV 1900) — 20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

It happened a long time ago, and you are not able to deal with it

BTW Adult conversation does not resort to ad hominem in place of reasoned exegesis

 

[SteveB]

Still not addressing any rebuttal, with yet another example of that type of failure

Here is the desolation

Luke 21:20–28 (KJV 1900) — 20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

It happened a long time ago, and you are not able to deal with it

Yeah, that's what I thought.
You're just trying to manipulate me.

BTW Adult conversation does not resort to ad hominem in place of reasoned exegesis

As I said, if you actually believe that what I've posted is ad hominem, file a complaint with forum mgmt.
Failure to do so, and continue to make the accusation demonstrates that you only seek to manipulate the process.

 

[TomL]

Yeah, that's what I thought.
You're just trying to manipulate me.

As I said, if you actually believe that what I've posted is ad hominem, file a complaint with forum mgmt.
Failure to do so, and continue to make the accusation demonstrates that you only seek to manipulate the process.

Oh look

yet another post discussing me rather than the scriptures I post

Here is the desolation

Luke 21:20–28 (KJV 1900) — 20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

It happened a long time ago, and you are not able to deal with it

 

[TomL]

Mat 25:1-13 WEB 1 “Then the Kingdom of Heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2 Five of them were foolish, and five were wise. 3 Those who were foolish, when they took their lamps, took no oil with them, 4 but the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. 5 Now while the bridegroom delayed, they all slumbered and slept. 6 But at midnight there was a cry, ‘Behold! The bridegroom is coming! Come out to meet him!’ 7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. 8 The foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’ 9 But the wise answered, saying, ‘What if there isn’t enough for us and you? You go rather to those who sell, and buy for yourselves.’ 10 While they went away to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast, and the door was shut. 11 Afterward the other virgins also came, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open to us.’ 12 But he answered, ‘Most certainly I tell you, I don’t know you.’ 13 Watch therefore, for you don’t know the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming.

Continuing in Matthew 25 and reading the text as a premillenialist would

Matthew 24:21–31 (KJV 1900) — 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened. 23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

it appears the elect go through the tribulation

 

[SteveB]

Continuing in Matthew 25 and reading the text as a premillenialist would

Matthew 24:21–31 (KJV 1900) — 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened. 23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

it appears the elect go through the tribulation

Apparently it never occurred to you that Israel is the elect.

 

[TomL]

Apparently it never occurred to you that Israel is the elect.

Apparently if never occurred to you most Jews were cut off and the elect were both believing gentiles and Jews



Colossians 3:1–12 (KJV 1900) — 1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. 2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. 5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: 6 For which things’ sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: 7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them. 8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. 9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; 10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: 11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. 12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;



Continuing in Matthew 25 and reading the text as a premillenialist would

Matthew 24:21–31 (KJV 1900) — 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened. 23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

it appears the elect go through the tribulation

 

[SteveB]

Apparently if never occurred to you most Jews were cut off and the elect were both believing gentiles and Jews

I guess that would explain why Paul made this statement in Romans 11.

Rom 11:28-29 WEB 28 Concerning the Good News, they are enemies for your sake. But concerning the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sake. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Colossians 3:1–12 (KJV 1900) — 1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. 2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. 5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: 6 For which things’ sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: 7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them. 8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. 9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; 10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: 11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. 12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

Great passage. I'm not seeing anything about the Jewish people not being the elect.

Continuing in Matthew 25 and reading the text as a premillenialist would

Matthew 24:21–31 (KJV 1900) — 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened. 23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

it appears the elect go through the tribulation

Yep.
The Jewish people.

Rom 11:28-29 WEB 28 Concerning the Good News, they are enemies for your sake. But concerning the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sake. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

 

[TomL]

I guess that would explain why Paul made this statement in Romans 11.

Rom 11:28-29 WEB 28 Concerning the Good News, they are enemies for your sake. But concerning the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sake. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Fits exactly what I stated

Apparently if never occurred to you most Jews were cut off and the elect were both believing gentiles and Jews
Colossians 3:1–12 (KJV 1900) — 1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. 2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. 5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: 6 For which things’ sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: 7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them. 8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. 9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; 10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: 11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. 12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

Great passage. I'm not seeing anything about the Jewish people not being the elect.

hello you are the one who stated

"Apparently it never occurred to you that Israel is the elect."
as though that refer to only Jews being elect

but the passage will not allow that

Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. 12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

further

unbelieving Jews are not elect in the new covenant but blinded and cutoff
Romans 11:7 (KJV 1900) — 7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

Israel is differentiated from the elect

Yep.
The Jewish people.

Rom 11:28-29 WEB 28 Concerning the Good News, they are enemies for your sake. But concerning the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sake. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

still does not state unbelieving Jews are elect
Romans 11:7 (KJV 1900) — 7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

 

[SteveB]

Fits exactly what I stated

Apparently if never occurred to you most Jews were cut off and the elect were both believing gentiles and Jews
Colossians 3:1–12 (KJV 1900) — 1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. 2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. 5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: 6 For which things’ sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: 7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them. 8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. 9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; 10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: 11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. 12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;


hello you are the one who stated

"Apparently it never occurred to you that Israel is the elect."
as though that refer to only Jews being elect

but the passage will not allow that

Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. 12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

further

unbelieving Jews are not elect in the new covenant but blinded and cutoff
Romans 11:7 (KJV 1900) — 7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

Israel is differentiated from the elect




still does not state unbelieving Jews are elect
Romans 11:7 (KJV 1900) — 7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

Ah.
So it's never actually occurred to you that Israel is the elect.

That's all you had to say.

 

[TomL]

Ah.
So it's never actually occurred to you that Israel is the elect.

That's all you had to say.

Try reading and then address all that was stated

you are the one who stated

"Apparently it never occurred to you that Israel is the elect."

as though that refer to only Jews being elect

but the passage will not allow that

Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. 12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

further

unbelieving Jews are not elect in the new covenant but blinded and cutoff

Romans 11:7 (KJV 1900) — 7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

Israel is differentiated from the elect - you just ignored that

 

[SteveB]

Try reading and then address all that was stated

you are the one who stated

"Apparently it never occurred to you that Israel is the elect."

as though that refer to only Jews being elect

but the passage will not allow that

Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. 12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

further

unbelieving Jews are not elect in the new covenant but blinded and cutoff

Romans 11:7 (KJV 1900) — 7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

Israel is differentiated from the elect - you just ignored that

You want me to ignore what the Bible says.
Why, I've never actually understood, but you keep going.

 

[TomL]

You want me to ignore what the Bible says.
Why, I've never actually understood, but you keep going.

You want me to ignore what the Bible says.
Why, I've never actually understood, but you keep going.

Still ignoring all that was stated

you are the one who stated

"Apparently it never occurred to you that Israel is the elect."

1) as though that refer to only Jews being elect

but the passage will not allow that

Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. 12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

further

2) unbelieving Jews are not elect in the new covenant but blinded and cutoff

Romans 11:7 (KJV 1900) — 7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

Israel is differentiated from the elect - you just ignored that

and you still ignore those items in particular item 2 which refutes your claim unbelieving Israel is elect under the New covenant

 

[SteveB]

Still ignoring all that was stated

You make it extremely easy to ignore what you say.

you are the one who stated

"Apparently it never occurred to you that Israel is the elect."

Why yes! Yes I did!

1) as though that refer to only Jews being elect

That's an assumption on your part.

but the passage will not allow that

Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. 12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

Ironically, I never referenced that passage.
Nor did I say anything about Jesus followers in the church.
I'm specifically referring to the tribulation period.
So, yet again,
You assume.

further

2) unbelieving Jews are not elect in the new covenant but blinded and cutoff

And? Were the unbelieving people ignored by God?

Romans 11:7 (KJV 1900) — 7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

Israel is differentiated from the elect - you just ignored that

I see what your problem is...
you continue to focus on singular passages to justify your opinions.
This is a serious problem.
How much of the Bible have you actually read?
Israel is differentiated from the church at the cross and resurrection.
The original church was entirely Jewish. The original disciples were entirely Jewish.
There were no Gentiles until Acts 8, and 10.

and you still ignore those items in particular item 2 which refutes your claim unbelieving Israel is elect under the New covenant

I ignore your posts when they focus on a single verse to justify an entire doctrine. Absolutely!

 

[TomL]

You make it extremely easy to ignore what you say.

it seems to be your regular pattern as you admit



I had stated

you are the one who stated

"Apparently it never occurred to you that Israel is the elect."

1) as though that refers to only Jews being elect

but this passage will not allow that

Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. 12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

Why yes! Yes I did!

That's an assumption on your part.

If it is an assumption then your comment


"Apparently it never occurred to you that Israel is the elect."

does nothing to address what i stated

Ironically, I never referenced that passage.

I did. it was an argument addressing your comment


"Apparently it never occurred to you that Israel is the elect."


which we now know does not address my position

I noted

2) unbelieving Jews are not elect in the new covenant but blinded and cutoff

Nor did I say anything about Jesus followers in the church.

So you just stated


"Apparently it never occurred to you that Israel is the elect."

for no discernable reason?

The point is if the bible places the elect in the tribulation they are not unbelieving Jews

as Matthew does here

Matthew 24:22 (KJV 1900) — 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened

they were not raptured.


in revelation we read

Revelation 7:9–14 (KJV 1900) — 9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. 11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, 12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. 13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

of those who came from out of the tribulation. They also were not raptured

I see what your problem is...
you continue to focus on singular passages to justify your opinions.
This is a serious problem.
How much of the Bible have you actually read?

This is seriously funny. You have not been able to address a single argument and I have posted a multiplicity of verses refuting your position which you do not address

Israel is differentiated from the church at the cross and resurrection.
The original church was entirely Jewish. The original disciples were entirely Jewish.
There were no Gentiles until Acts 8, and 10.

So what?

We are addressing the end times not the first century

Did you imagine unbelieving Jews are elect under the new covenant?

If not why are speaking of Jewish elect?

I ignore your posts when they focus on a single verse to justify an entire doctrine. Absolutely!

you ignore what you cannot answer. it is a regular pattern with youy