Rapture Ready

DavidTree said:
AGREE - 1 Thess 1:10 "and wait for His Son from Heaven, JESUS our Deliverer from the wrath to come."

AGREE - 1 Thess 5:9 -"God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ"

God's Wrath is not Tribulation.

To equate tribulation with God's Wrath is to call the LORD Jesus Christ a liar.

You do not want to do that do you?

SEE, HEAR and BELIEVE the word of the LORD

Hate - The LORD Jesus specifically told us that His elect (us who are Saved) would be hated by the world and suffer tribulation.
John 15:18 - If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before you

Persecution = John 15:19 - If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you.

Tribulation - John 16:33 - In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”

Tribulation unto death - Matthew 24:9 - “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

Tribulation before His Coming - 1 Thessalonians 3:1-5
Therefore, when we could no longer endure it, we thought it good to be left in Athens alone, and sent Timothy, our brother and minister of God, and our fellow laborer in the gospel of Christ, to establish you and encourage you concerning your faith, that no one should be shaken by these afflictions; for you yourselves know that we are appointed to this.
For, in fact, we told you before when we were with you that we would suffer tribulation, just as it happened, and you know.
For this reason, when I could no longer endure it, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter had tempted you, and our labor might be in vain.

Tribulation before His Coming - 2 Thessalonians 1:3
We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure,

TRIBULATION for God's elect has never stopped in the world and it will only get worse.

Both Noah and Lot were in grave tribulation.
If it were not for their faith in the True God, they would of perished with the surrounding peoples whom God judged.

Both Noah and Lot were delivered from God's Wrath.
Click to expand...
But the "great " tribulation described in Rev 8-19 is Gods wrath being poured out upon this earth though the bowls, trumpets etc..... In Revelation 14:19 its called the winepress of Gods wrath being poured out during the great tribulation.
 
This pre-rapture theory grew out of the translations of the bible that John Nelson Darby analyzed in 1833.

God's word is truth and every man a liar !

This theology makes God unjust !
Millions have been and are being persecuted unto death for their faith. To think one group is special over all the rest of believers makes him a respector of persons.

One has to wrongly divide the word to make this his truth. It was not a doctrine in the early church nor was it prevelant until the 1800's. Had such a gem been true it would have been a running theme throughout the word of God and Christendom.

His second coming is the waiting and watching period to be ready in. We are promised persecutions, tribulations and trying to test our faith, to run to the caves and wish to have the rocks fall on one is cowardly and shows a lack of faith to be able to stand, imo!

There is no pre-trib rapture, it is a LIE !
 
civic said:
But the "great " tribulation described in Rev 8-19 is Gods wrath being poured out upon this earth though the bowls, trumpets etc..... In Revelation 14:19 its called the winepress of Gods wrath being poured out during the great tribulation.
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That would be a direct conflation.
Since God is not the author of confusion AND the LORD very loud and CLEAR defined for us 'Tribulation' that we must face and that HIS Love rescues us from His Wrath.
We must now take those two distinctions and SEE with them as we read Revelation.
Eleazar said:
For a Christian To call Jesus Christ a liar Is an oxymoron. You're right I'm definitely going to avoid that.
Click to expand...

Then do not make a false claim against His words like "pre-trib" rapture.

Or, saying that the Church will not see Tribulation.

Or claiming Tribulation is God's Wrath.

All of those claims go directly against the words of CHRIST and the Apostles.

You cannot have it both ways - you must choose whom you will obey.

Men with their 'pre-trib' fables or God's words that are Pure and a Shield of Protection for us.

Proverbs 30:5-6
 
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DavidTree said:
That would be a direct conflation.
Since God is not the author of confusion AND the LORD very loud and CLEAR defined for us 'Tribulation' that we must face and that HIS Love rescues us from His Wrath.
We must now take those two distinctions and SEE with them as we read Revelation.


Then do not make a false claim against His words like "pre-trib" rapture.

Or, saying that the Church will not see Tribulation.

Or claiming Tribulation is God's Wrath.

All of those claims go directly against the words of CHRIST and the Apostles.

You cannot have it both ways - you must choose whom you will obey.

Men with their 'pre-trib' fables or God's words that are Pure and a Shield of Protection for us.

Proverbs 30:5-6
Click to expand...
It is Christ Himself who used the phrase "Great Tribulation" with reference to the last half of the Tribulation. In Matthew 24:21, Jesus says, "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall." In this verse Jesus is referring to the event of Matthew 24:15, which describes the revealing of the abomination of desolation, the man also known as the Antichrist. Also, Jesus in Matthew 24:29-30 states, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days . . . the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory." In this passage, Jesus defines the Great Tribulation (v.21) as beginning with the revealing of the abomination of desolation (v.15) and ending with Christ’s second coming (v.30).

Other passages that refer to the Great Tribulation are Daniel 12:1b, which says, "And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time." It seems that Jesus was quoting this verse when He spoke the words recorded in Matthew 24:21. Also referring to the Great Tribulation is Jeremiah 30:7, "Alas! for that day is great, There is none like it; And it is the time of Jacob’s distress, But he will be saved from it." The phrase “Jacob’s distress” refers to the nation of Israel, which will experience persecution and natural disasters such as have never before been seen.

Considering the information Christ gave us in Matthew 24:15-30, it is easy to conclude that the beginning of the Great Tribulation has much to do with the abomination of desolation, an action of the Antichrist. In Daniel 9:26-27, we find that this man will make a "covenant" (a peace pact) with the world for seven years (one “week”; again, see the article on the Tribulation). Halfway through the seven-year period—"in the middle of the week"—we are told this man will break the covenant he made, stopping sacrifice and grain offering, which specifically refers to his actions in the rebuilt temple of the future. Revelation 13:1-10 gives even more detail concerning the Beast’s actions, and just as important, it also verifies the length of time he will be in power. Revelation 13:5 says he will be in power for 42 months, which is three and one-half years, the length of the Great Tribulation.

Revelation offers us the most information about the Great Tribulation. From Revelation 13 when the Beast is revealed until Christ returns in Revelation 19, we are given a picture of God’s wrath on the earth because of unbelief and rebellion (Revelation 16-18). It is also a picture of how God disciplines and at the same time protects His people Israel (Revelation 14:1-5) until He keeps His promise to Israel by establishing an earthly kingdom (Revelation 20:4-6).got?

hope this helps !!!
 
civic said:
It is Christ Himself who used the phrase "Great Tribulation" with reference to the last half of the Tribulation. In Matthew 24:21, Jesus says, "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall." In this verse Jesus is referring to the event of Matthew 24:15, which describes the revealing of the abomination of desolation, the man also known as the Antichrist. Also, Jesus in Matthew 24:29-30 states, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days . . . the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory." In this passage, Jesus defines the Great Tribulation (v.21) as beginning with the revealing of the abomination of desolation (v.15) and ending with Christ’s second coming (v.30).

Other passages that refer to the Great Tribulation are Daniel 12:1b, which says, "And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time." It seems that Jesus was quoting this verse when He spoke the words recorded in Matthew 24:21. Also referring to the Great Tribulation is Jeremiah 30:7, "Alas! for that day is great, There is none like it; And it is the time of Jacob’s distress, But he will be saved from it." The phrase “Jacob’s distress” refers to the nation of Israel, which will experience persecution and natural disasters such as have never before been seen.

Considering the information Christ gave us in Matthew 24:15-30, it is easy to conclude that the beginning of the Great Tribulation has much to do with the abomination of desolation, an action of the Antichrist. In Daniel 9:26-27, we find that this man will make a "covenant" (a peace pact) with the world for seven years (one “week”; again, see the article on the Tribulation). Halfway through the seven-year period—"in the middle of the week"—we are told this man will break the covenant he made, stopping sacrifice and grain offering, which specifically refers to his actions in the rebuilt temple of the future. Revelation 13:1-10 gives even more detail concerning the Beast’s actions, and just as important, it also verifies the length of time he will be in power. Revelation 13:5 says he will be in power for 42 months, which is three and one-half years, the length of the Great Tribulation.

Revelation offers us the most information about the Great Tribulation. From Revelation 13 when the Beast is revealed until Christ returns in Revelation 19, we are given a picture of God’s wrath on the earth because of unbelief and rebellion (Revelation 16-18). It is also a picture of how God disciplines and at the same time protects His people Israel (Revelation 14:1-5) until He keeps His promise to Israel by establishing an earthly kingdom (Revelation 20:4-6).got?

hope this helps !!!
Click to expand...
i am so GLAD in the Holy Spirit, Who is guiding our conversation right now.

Revelation reveals two separate 'Troubles' = for simplicity of discovery.

Group A - Tribulation (even GREAT Tribulation) upon the Saints from the World/Satan/World Governments just as the LORD foretold in the Gospel AND the Apostles who experienced it firsthand, who also foretold of the sufferings of the Saints.

Group B - the Wrath of God being poured out at specific times and on specific peoples on earth.

The Saints are not in or of Group B = we are not appointed to Wrath

The Saints are in Group A and always will be until His Coming.

@civic = Have you ever, in your walk with the LORD, come across a single scripture that became a Eye-Opener for you and it changed your Thinking?

The Great Tribulation should be your Eye-Opener = Look and SEE

Revelation 7:9-17

After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12saying:

“Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom,
Thanksgiving and honor and power and might,
Be to our God forever and ever.
Amen.”

Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”


14And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”

So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of The Great Tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. 16They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; 17for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to [c]living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”
 
L.A.M.B. said:
imo!

There is no pre-trib rapture, it is a LIE !
Click to expand...
Only according to your opinion.

You posted "God's word is truth and every man a liar !"

But that's not what the scripture says or means.

4 Not at all! Let God be true, and every human being a liar. As it is written: “So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge.” Romans 3:4
God always keeps His word and remains faithful to His people no matter what they do. That's why His words and judgments are justified. He never ever breaks His side of any covenant agreement.

Paul is making a case that no human being has ever been justified—made right with God—by following the works of the law. This is primarily aimed at Jewish readers and those who have heard the arguments of the Jewish religious leaders.

Now he points to Abraham as a prime example, using Old Testament Scripture as his source. According to Scripture, Abraham was not justified by what he did: by his works. Instead, God credited Abraham as righteous when he believed and for believing (Genesis 15:6). It was faith in God, not his own works, which allowed Abraham to be justified before God.

Paul made this very same argument to the Christians in the region of Galatia (Galatians 3:6). They were being persuaded by a group known as the "Judaizers" that they must be circumcised and follow the law, in addition to believing in Christ, in order to be truly saved. Paul used the example of Abraham in that letter, as well, to show that this argument was false.
www.godtube.com

Romans 3:4 - God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a

Romans 3:4 - God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
www.godtube.com www.godtube.com
 
civic said:
It is Christ Himself who used the phrase "Great Tribulation" with reference to the last half of the Tribulation. In Matthew 24:21, Jesus says, "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall." In this verse Jesus is referring to the event of Matthew 24:15, which describes the revealing of the abomination of desolation, the man also known as the Antichrist. Also, Jesus in Matthew 24:29-30 states, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days . . . the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory." In this passage, Jesus defines the Great Tribulation (v.21) as beginning with the revealing of the abomination of desolation (v.15) and ending with Christ’s second coming (v.30).

Other passages that refer to the Great Tribulation are Daniel 12:1b, which says, "And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time." It seems that Jesus was quoting this verse when He spoke the words recorded in Matthew 24:21. Also referring to the Great Tribulation is Jeremiah 30:7, "Alas! for that day is great, There is none like it; And it is the time of Jacob’s distress, But he will be saved from it." The phrase “Jacob’s distress” refers to the nation of Israel, which will experience persecution and natural disasters such as have never before been seen.

Considering the information Christ gave us in Matthew 24:15-30, it is easy to conclude that the beginning of the Great Tribulation has much to do with the abomination of desolation, an action of the Antichrist. In Daniel 9:26-27, we find that this man will make a "covenant" (a peace pact) with the world for seven years (one “week”; again, see the article on the Tribulation). Halfway through the seven-year period—"in the middle of the week"—we are told this man will break the covenant he made, stopping sacrifice and grain offering, which specifically refers to his actions in the rebuilt temple of the future. Revelation 13:1-10 gives even more detail concerning the Beast’s actions, and just as important, it also verifies the length of time he will be in power. Revelation 13:5 says he will be in power for 42 months, which is three and one-half years, the length of the Great Tribulation.

Revelation offers us the most information about the Great Tribulation. From Revelation 13 when the Beast is revealed until Christ returns in Revelation 19, we are given a picture of God’s wrath on the earth because of unbelief and rebellion (Revelation 16-18). It is also a picture of how God disciplines and at the same time protects His people Israel (Revelation 14:1-5) until He keeps His promise to Israel by establishing an earthly kingdom (Revelation 20:4-6).got?

hope this helps !!!
Click to expand...

Daniel 12:1-3 COMPLETELY DENOUNCES the lie of pre-trib rapture.

Right now you cannot SEE that.

GOOD NEWS - You can SEE that TRUTH from God's Words TODAY !!!

Remember - no one is questioning your Salvation, your love for the LORD or your walk with the LORD

QUESTION: Do you want to know and SEE the Truth (concerning pre-trib) that is right in front of you in His Word???

ANSWER: When does the Resurrection occur???
 
DavidTree said:
That would be a direct conflation.
Since God is not the author of confusion AND the LORD very loud and CLEAR defined for us 'Tribulation' that we must face and that HIS Love rescues us from His Wrath.
We must now take those two distinctions and SEE with them as we read Revelation.


Then do not make a false claim against His words like "pre-trib" rapture.

Or, saying that the Church will not see Tribulation.

Or claiming Tribulation is God's Wrath.

All of those claims go directly against the words of CHRIST and the Apostles.

You cannot have it both ways - you must choose whom you will obey.

Men with their 'pre-trib' fables or God's words that are Pure and a Shield of Protection for us.

Proverbs 30:5-6
Click to expand...
Sorry but I can't go for that. Pre-tribulation Rapture is where it's at. Pretribulationism is the most widely held view among Christians believing in the rapture today.

When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise. The principle of consistent, literal interpretation of the entire Bible logically leads one to the pre-trib position. This means that the prophetic portions of the Bible are interpreted like any other subject matter in Scripture. The prophetic sections of the Bible use the same conventions of language found throughout the Bible.
 
Obadiah said:
Sorry but I can't go for that. Pre-tribulation Rapture is where it's at. Pretribulationism is the most widely held view among Christians believing in the rapture today.

When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise. The principle of consistent, literal interpretation of the entire Bible logically leads one to the pre-trib position. This means that the prophetic portions of the Bible are interpreted like any other subject matter in Scripture. The prophetic sections of the Bible use the same conventions of language found throughout the Bible.
Click to expand...
Never jump to conclusions unless you first examined the evidence that includes ALL SCRIPTURE = ALL = EVERY WORD spoken by GOD

Have you examined the Evidence of Scripture in Post 60 and 67 ?
 
Obadiah said:
Sorry but I can't go for that. Pre-tribulation Rapture is where it's at. Pretribulationism is the most widely held view among Christians believing in the rapture today.

When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise. The principle of consistent, literal interpretation of the entire Bible logically leads one to the pre-trib position. This means that the prophetic portions of the Bible are interpreted like any other subject matter in Scripture. The prophetic sections of the Bible use the same conventions of language found throughout the Bible.
Click to expand...

Also - popularity of doctrine does not establish TRUTH.

Do you want to see where God, our Heavenly FATHER, said that?
 
Obadiah said:
Sorry but I can't go for that. Pre-tribulation Rapture is where it's at. Pretribulationism is the most widely held view among Christians believing in the rapture today.

When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise. The principle of consistent, literal interpretation of the entire Bible logically leads one to the pre-trib position. This means that the prophetic portions of the Bible are interpreted like any other subject matter in Scripture. The prophetic sections of the Bible use the same conventions of language found throughout the Bible.
Click to expand...
Thirdly = "the plain sense of scripture" LOUDLY rebukes the error of 'pre-trib' rapture.

Man's 'plain sense' can be non-sense when we TRY our senses in the FIRE of God's Purifying Word
 
DavidTree said:
Never jump to conclusions unless you first examined the evidence that includes ALL SCRIPTURE = ALL = EVERY WORD spoken by GOD

Have you examined the Evidence of Scripture in Post 60 and 67 ?
Click to expand...
Let me see how I can express myself in a loving kind polite way. I was going to say what part of "I Can't Go for that" Don't you understand? But that would be awfully self-righteous and rude of me. So I'll try a different approach.

I've studied eschatology for quite some time. It's actually my second favorite biblical topic. My favorite pastor is an expert on the subject. I have in my position both physically and electronically many books on end times. So I doubt very seriously if a couple of posts on this forum will change my stance on the pre-tribulation rapture.

I realize that you think my belief is incorrect therefore I need to change. But at this stage of the game that's just not going to happen. I Just Can't Go for that, no can do.
 
Obadiah said:
Let me see how I can express myself in a loving kind polite way. I was going to say what part of "I Can't Go for that" Don't you understand? But that would be awfully self-righteous and rude of me. So I'll try a different approach.

I've studied eschatology for quite some time. It's actually my second favorite biblical topic. My favorite pastor is an expert on the subject. I have in my position both physically and electronically many books on end times. So I doubt very seriously if a couple of posts on this forum will change my stance on the pre-tribulation rapture.

I realize that you think my belief is incorrect therefore I need to change. But at this stage of the game that's just not going to happen. I Just Can't Go for that, no can do.
Click to expand...
@Obadiah - "My favorite pastor is an expert on the subject."

Brother, the Holy Spirit wants to be your Guide.

You absolutely can change - right now you do not want to because of your comfort in 'christiandom'.

We had a GREAT sharing a few days ago and i asked you a question but you never responded - Why?

POST #26 from Thread = https://berean-apologetics.communit...and-applying-gods-word.1304/page-2#post-54399
 
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L.A.M.B. said:
The above is my quote that one @Obadiah has corrupted to deception.

Too bad he is not just as not picky on his doctrines but then again maybe they are spliced & diced too !
Click to expand...
Obadiah said:
Let me see how I can express myself in a loving kind polite way. I was going to say what part of "I Can't Go for that" Don't you understand? But that would be awfully self-righteous and rude of me. So I'll try a different approach.

I've studied eschatology for quite some time. It's actually my second favorite biblical topic. My favorite pastor is an expert on the subject. I have in my position both physically and electronically many books on end times. So I doubt very seriously if a couple of posts on this forum will change my stance on the pre-tribulation rapture.

I realize that you think my belief is incorrect therefore I need to change. But at this stage of the game that's just not going to happen. I Just Can't Go for that, no can do.
Click to expand...

James ch2
If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well;
but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors.
For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.
For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

God has no favorite pastors!

My favorite apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers and Brothers/Sisters are the ones who do not add or take away from God's words.
 
DavidTree said:
Picking and

Picking and choosing 'pastors' is for the majority of christians in christiandom.

The LORD"S desire is that we are "no longer tossed to and fro from every wind of doctrine" that bellows from the pulpits.
Click to expand...
Amen.

The affiliations called churches have corrupted the word of God for the profit of increase.
Tickle their ear and they will come syndrome is among the many whom claim to be preachers & pastors......
but are not overseers of the flock!
 
L.A.M.B. said:
Amen.

The affiliations called churches have corrupted the word of God for the profit of increase.
Tickle their ear and they will come syndrome is among the many whom claim to be preachers & pastors......
but are not overseers of the flock!
Click to expand...
That's why I didn't mention his name because I knew this was coming.
 

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