Justification by Faith

[brightfame52]

Sorry for losing you, I tried to explain better to @Rockson in post #18.

In Proverbs 3:5-7, we have a choice between leaning on our own understanding of right and wrong by doing what is right in our own eyes or trusting in God with all of our heart to correctly divide between right and wrong through obeying what He has instructed, and He will make our way straight. This is the content of both the faith of Christ that he express through setting a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to what God has instructed and the faith that we have in Christ through following his example.

What God has instructed reveals the way to act in accordance with His nature, which is why the Bible often uses the same terms to describe aspects of God's nature as it does to describe aspects of the nature of God's instructions, such as with them being holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12). For example, we can put our faith in the nature of God, such as putting our faith in the righteousness of God to correctly guide us by following His instructions for how to act in accordance with His righteousness or we can choose to do what is right in our own eyes.


What God has instructed is truth (Psalms 119:142).

In my Faith, we are Justified before God by the obedience of Christ Rom 5:19 my obedience means nothing in the matter of Justification before God

 

[Soyeong]

In my Faith, we are Justified before God by the obedience of Christ Rom 5:19 my obedience means nothing in the matter of Justification before God

It is contradictory to have faith in God, but not have faith in what He has instructed.

In Proverbs 3:5-7, we have a choice between leaning on our own understanding of right and wrong by doing what is right in our own eyes or trusting in God with all of our heart to correctly divide between right and wrong through obeying what He has instructed, and He will make our way straight, and this is what it means to have faith.

I agree that it is not the case that we need to obey God's law first and then we will earn our righteousness as the result, but rather obeying God's law is showing that we trust God with all of our heart and it is by that faith that we are declared righteous, which is why Paul said in Romans 2:13 that only doers of the law will be declared righteous. In other words, in regard to being someone who has faith, being someone who is a doer of the law, and being someone who will be declared righteous, we become all three at the same time and anyone who is missing one is also not the others, but we do not earn our righteousness as the result of being a doer of the law.

In regard to Romans 5:19, being made righteous means being made into someone who practices righteousness as a doer of the law. Likewise, the way the only way to become someone who is courageous is through faith and becoming courageous means becoming someone who practices courageousness, and the same is true for other character traits. It is contradictory to try to separate someone having a character trait from being someone who practices that trait.

 

[brightfame52]

It is contradictory to have faith in God, but not have faith in what He has instructed.

In Proverbs 3:5-7, we have a choice between leaning on our own understanding of right and wrong by doing what is right in our own eyes or trusting in God with all of our heart to correctly divide between right and wrong through obeying what He has instructed, and He will make our way straight, and this is what it means to have faith.

I agree that it is not the case that we need to obey God's law first and then we will earn our righteousness as the result, but rather obeying God's law is showing that we trust God with all of our heart and it is by that faith that we are declared righteous, which is why Paul said in Romans 2:13 that only doers of the law will be declared righteous. In other words, in regard to being someone who has faith, being someone who is a doer of the law, and being someone who will be declared righteous, we become all three at the same time and anyone who is missing one is also not the others, but we do not earn our righteousness as the result of being a doer of the law.

In regard to Romans 5:19, being made righteous means being made into someone who practices righteousness as a doer of the law. Likewise, the way the only way to become someone who is courageous is through faith and becoming courageous means becoming someone who practices courageousness, and the same is true for other character traits. It is contradictory to try to separate someone having a character trait from being someone who practices that trait.

Let me show you Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
His Obedience was faithful Obedience Heb 2:17

Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
So those whom He lived and died for shall be Justified/Made Righteous by His Faithfulness/Obedience Rom 3:22

Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Gal 2:16

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

 

[Soyeong]

Let me show you Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
His Obedience was faithful Obedience Heb 2:17

Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
So those whom He lived and died for shall be Justified/Made Righteous by His Faithfulness/Obedience Rom 3:22

Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Gal 2:16

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

There are two issues:

1.) The way to become a character trait.
2.) The content of what we are becoming when we become that character trait.

The way to become a character trait is by believing that we ought to be someone who practices that trait and what we are becoming when we become that trait is someone who practices it. For example the way to become courageous is through faith that we ought to be courageous and what we are becoming when we become courageous is someone who practices courageousness. The same is true for any other character traise including becoming righteous. God's law is His instructions for how to practice righteousness, not for how to become righteous.

God practices holiness, righteousness, goodness, justice, mercifulness, faithfulness, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, self-control, and so forth, so the way to believe in God, in the character of who He is is by having faith that ought to be someone who practices the same traits and God's law is His instructions for how to practice those traits. Our goal is to be in God's image and to faithfully represent the nature of who He is. For example, when we do good works we are believe in God's goodness as being the guide for how we ought to live and are testifying about God's goodness, which is why our good works bring glory to Him (Matthew 5:16). Someone can look at the character of our works and see what we believe to be true about the character of God, which is why James 2:18 says that he would show his faith by his works. We are to trust with all of our heart in the revealed goodness of God to be the guide for how we ought live our lives and he will make our way straight rather than leaning on our own understanding by doing what is right in our own eyes.

So I agree that we do not become righteous as the result of having first obey God's law, but rather we become righteous through faith and what we are becoming when we become righteous through faith is someone who practices righteousness in obedience to God's law through that faith.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Is God faithful to us when we are not faithful to Him?

Rom 3:3 What if some were unfaithful? Does their faithlessness nullify the faithfulness of God?

While our faith brings justification. Justification itself is not our own action. It is the work of God.

 

[brightfame52]

There are two issues:

1.) The way to become a character trait.
2.) The content of what we are becoming when we become that character trait.

The way to become a character trait is by believing that we ought to be someone who practices that trait and what we are becoming when we become that trait is someone who practices it. For example the way to become courageous is through faith that we ought to be courageous and what we are becoming when we become courageous is someone who practices courageousness. The same is true for any other character traise including becoming righteous. God's law is His instructions for how to practice righteousness, not for how to become righteous.

God practices holiness, righteousness, goodness, justice, mercifulness, faithfulness, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, self-control, and so forth, so the way to believe in God, in the character of who He is is by having faith that ought to be someone who practices the same traits and God's law is His instructions for how to practice those traits. Our goal is to be in God's image and to faithfully represent the nature of who He is. For example, when we do good works we are believe in God's goodness as being the guide for how we ought to live and are testifying about God's goodness, which is why our good works bring glory to Him (Matthew 5:16). Someone can look at the character of our works and see what we believe to be true about the character of God, which is why James 2:18 says that he would show his faith by his works. We are to trust with all of our heart in the revealed goodness of God to be the guide for how we ought live our lives and he will make our way straight rather than leaning on our own understanding by doing what is right in our own eyes.

So I agree that we do not become righteous as the result of having first obey God's law, but rather we become righteous through faith and what we are becoming when we become righteous through faith is someone who practices righteousness in obedience to God's law through that faith.

Many became righteous by the obedience of One Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

 

[Soyeong]

Many became righteous by the obedience of One Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

I completely agree with that verse and have not said anything otherwise, so please interact with what I said.

 

[Soyeong]

Is God faithful to us when we are not faithful to Him?

Rom 3:3 What if some were unfaithful? Does their faithlessness nullify the faithfulness of God?

While our faith brings justification. Justification itself is not our own action. It is the work of God.

For God to be righteous means that He practices righteousness and it would be inaccurate to describe God as being righteous if He did not practice righteousness, so while there are no works that we can do first to result in becoming righteous, concept of becoming righteous can't be removed from the concept of becoming someone who practices righteousness. Obedience to any set of instructions is about putting our faith in the one who gave them to us to correctly guide us, so relying on what God has instructed is relying on God, not on ourselves.

 

[praise_yeshua]

For God to be righteous means that He practices righteousness and it would be inaccurate to describe God as being righteous if He did not practice righteousness, so while there are no works that we can do first to result in becoming righteous, concept of becoming righteous can't be removed from the concept of becoming someone who practices righteousness. Obedience to any set of instructions is about putting our faith in the one who gave them to us to correctly guide us, so relying on what God has instructed is relying on God, not on ourselves.

Yes. You've said this to me so many times now that I can almost repeat it word for word now..... I'm not trying to be hard on you.

Righteousness didn't come by the law. Righteous is a reflection of character. You can't record a law large enough to accurately express the entirety of God's character. It is more than words. More than parchment. More than rules that you endless break.

I'm going to ask one more question and I'm giving up for now.

If I own my own land, do I have right to do things with my own land that others do not? Which is ultimately the analogy of the Potter and the clay. God gets to mold the clay as he sees fit. You're not the Potter but you sure are making God the clay.

 

[brightfame52]

I completely agree with that verse and have not said anything otherwise, so please interact with what I said.

It doesnt seem to me you agree with it.

 

[Soyeong]

Yes. You've said this to me so many times now that I can almost repeat it word for word now..... I'm not trying to be hard on you.

Righteousness didn't come by the law. Righteous is a reflection of character. You can't record a law large enough to accurately express the entirety of God's character. It is more than words. More than parchment. More than rules that you endless break.

There are of course more way to act in accordance with God's righteous than what God's law specifically instructs, but God's law is spiritual in that it has always been intended to teach us deeper spiritual principles of which the listed laws are just examples, and which are aspects of God's nature. For example, God's righteous laws allow us to extrapolate a principle of righteousness that leads us to take actions that are examples of that principle in accordance with what God's law instructs even in situations that God's law does not specifically instruct. Still, the laws that God has instructed do teach us how to act in accordance with His righteous even if they do not exhaustively teach us how to act in accordance with every aspect of His righteousness in every situation.

I'm going to ask one more question and I'm giving up for now.

If I own my own land, do I have right to do things with my own land that others do not? Which is ultimately the analogy of the Potter and the clay. God gets to mold the clay as he sees fit. You're not the Potter but you sure are making God the clay.

While God conceivably could have commanded anything that He wanted, everything that He specifically chose to command was commanded for the purpose of teaching us how to express, experience, love, believe in, and testify about different aspects of His nature even if it does not exhaustively do that in every possible situation. For example, God conceivably could have chosen to command His people to commit adultery, and if He had done that, then that would have revealed something very different about the nature of who He is, but adultery is an example of something that is against His nature, so He chose to command against it instead. Idolatry is to our relationship with our creator what adultery is to our relationship with our neighbor, so God is also teaching us about who He is through His instructions for how to relate to our neighbor.

 

[Soyeong]

It doesnt seem to me you agree with it.

I agree that the way to become righteous is through Christ's obedience. What we are becoming when we become righteous is someone who practices righteousness in obedience to God's law in accordance with the example of obedience that Christ set for us to follow. This is in accordance with Romans 5:19.

 

[brightfame52]

I agree that the way to become righteous is through Christ's obedience. What we are becoming when we become righteous is someone who practices righteousness in obedience to God's law in accordance with the example of obedience that Christ set for us to follow. This is in accordance with Romans 5:19.

No thats not what it says, it says Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

 

[praise_yeshua]

There are of course more way to act in accordance with God's righteous than what God's law specifically instructs, but God's law is spiritual in that it has always been intended to teach us deeper spiritual principles of which the listed laws are just examples, and which are aspects of God's nature. For example, God's righteous laws allow us to extrapolate a principle of righteousness that leads us to take actions that are examples of that principle in accordance with what God's law instructs even in situations that God's law does not specifically instruct. Still, the laws that God has instructed do teach us how to act in accordance with His righteous even if they do not exhaustively teach us how to act in accordance with every aspect of His righteousness in every situation.


While God conceivably could have commanded anything that He wanted, everything that He specifically chose to command was commanded for the purpose of teaching us how to express, experience, love, believe in, and testify about different aspects of His nature even if it does not exhaustively do that in every possible situation. For example, God conceivably could have chosen to command His people to commit adultery, and if He had done that, then that would have revealed something very different about the nature of who He is, but adultery is an example of something that is against His nature, so He chose to command against it instead. Idolatry is to our relationship with our creator what adultery is to our relationship with our neighbor, so God is also teaching us about who He is through His instructions for how to relate to our neighbor.

Enough said.

 

[Soyeong]

No thats not what it says, it says Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

I agreed that we are made righteous by the obedience of one and spoke in regard to what it means to be made righteous, so how is that not in accordance with Romans 5:19?

 

[brightfame52]

Rom 5:1

Being Justified by Faith !

What does this mean ? For many deceivers are out in the world and have so misapplied this verse to make it say something that it really does not say or mean, and that is that one is saved or Justified before God because of their Faith, meaning their act of believing, that their act of believing is the causative reason of their Justification before God ! Let me say without hesitation that this teaching is false in that its against the True basis of Justification, and that namely is the Lord Jesus Christ. Against His accomplishment on the cross Its the blood of Jesus Christ and the grace of God that Justifies sinners, and i will prove this from scriptures. Also keep in mind, that Faith is a noun not a verb as in something we do, but its a substance.

Rom 5:1

1Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Let me start off by saying, what Paul does not mean here, and that is, Paul is not teaching that one is Justified [before God] by or because of their act of Faith, since #1, Faith is a noun in this verse..and if we use the verb believing, then we are saying that God Justified because of something I did, which was believe..Thats works..

And even more so, Paul cannot contradict his own teaching in other portions of Gods word as to the True source of Justification before God! First of all Paul teaches that the elect are Justified by the blood of Jesus Christ Rom 5:9a

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Paul clearly teaches that Justification is by the blood of Jesus Christ.

 

[brightfame52]

I agreed that we are made righteous by the obedience of one and spoke in regard to what it means to be made righteous, so how is that not in accordance with Romans 5:19?

Do you believe everyone Christ died for is made righteous by His death alone apart from any obedience of their own ? Yes or No please

 

[Soyeong]

Do you believe everyone Christ died for is made righteous by His death alone apart from any obedience of their own ? Yes or No please

Yes.

There again is a difference between the way to become righteous and what it means to becoming rightoeus. The way to become righteous is through faith apart from having first practiced righteousness and becoming righteous through faith means becoming someone who practices righteousness by that faith. It would be contradictory for someone to become a character trait through faith apart from becoming someone who practices that trait through the same faith.

 

[brightfame52]

Yes.

There again is a difference between the way to become righteous and what it means to becoming rightoeus. The way to become righteous is through faith apart from having first practiced righteousness and becoming righteous through faith means becoming someone who practices righteousness by that faith. It would be contradictory for someone to become a character trait through faith apart from becoming someone who practices that trait through the same faith.

Well by saying yes, you must be a universalist. Thats an unscriptural position

The way to become righteous is through faith apart from having first practiced righteousness and becoming righteous through faith means becoming someone who practices righteousness by that faith

Then you just contradicted yourself and dont believe what you just said yes to.

Rom 5:19 teaches one becomes righteous apart from faith, solely by the obedience of Christ.

 

[Soyeong]

Well by saying yes, you must be a universalist. Thats an unscriptural position

No, I am not a universalist, Romans 5:9 does not teach universalism, but rather it is in accordance with Romans 5:1

Then you just contradicted yourself and dont believe what you just said yes to.

Rom 5:19 teaches one becomes righteous apart from faith, solely by the obedience of Christ.

I did not contradict myself. That is not what Romans 5:19 teaches and I don't see why it makes sense to you to interpret either Romans 5:9 or 5:19 as contradicting Romans 5:1.