civic
Well-known member
44- come and draw are synonymous
45- those who come are the ones who listen and learn from the Father, ie the same ones He draws in 44,
Oops
Next
hope this helps !!!
John 6 the context
- Thread starter civic
- Start date
45- those who come are the ones who listen and learn from the Father, ie the same ones He draws in 44,
Oops
Next
hope this helps !!!
Their learning is the reason they come
civic
Well-known member
Yes those who listen and learn from the Father are the ones who are drawn by the Father and come to the Son. Jesus spells that out in John 6:44-45.
Yes
And the father voice is heard in various ways
If they believed Moses they would have believed Jesus
John 5:46–47 (NASB 2020) — 46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”
hearing and learning from Moses would have resulted in them coming to Christ
If they believed John the baptist they would have believed Jesus
John 1:6–7 (NASB 2020) — 6 A man came, one sent from God, and his name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him.
Hearing and learning from John would have caused them to come to Christ
If they had the word of the Father in them, they would have believed Jesus - compare to John 6:45
John 5:36–38 (NASB 2020) — 36 “But the testimony I have is greater than the testimony of John; for the works which the Father has given Me to accomplish—the very works that I do—testify about Me, that the Father has sent Me. 37 “And the Father who sent Me, He has testified about Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form. 38 Also you do not have His word remaining in you, because you do not believe Him whom He sent.
If they believed the scripture they would have believed Jesus
John 5:39–40 (NASB 2020) — 39 “You examine the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is those very Scriptures that testify about Me; 40 and yet you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.
civic
Well-known member
Yes by the testimony of 2/3 witnesses let every fact be confirmed. Jesus teaches 4 witnesses in John 5.
He doubled down on those hypocrites, the Pharisees.Which is why Calvinism and context do not agreeYes by the testimony of 2/3 witnesses let every fact be confirmed. Jesus teaches 4 witnesses in John 5.
civic
Well-known member
@Swordman I saw this on the other forum that you posted so I wanted to post it here as I thought you made some excellent points. I hope you don't mind.
the context is John 6 and drawing and coming.
" A long time ago, I encountered an internet exegete (well known to many here) who suggested that John 6 was one of those texts that was irrefutably Calvinistic and that no one had ever been able to show a better interpretation than the Calvinist reading. Of course, he primarily referred to John 6:37-45. I took this issue to a well-known Arminian exegete, and he more or less concurred, again focusing on those specific verses with a slightly different understanding of the effects of God's drawing.
This, of course, presented a challenge to me. There are very few passages where only one interpretation exists among exegetes. So, I started looking at the broader context, and it ultimately led to a study and presentation for the SBL. While I am not going to cover everything I discovered, here are a few examples.
the context is John 6 and drawing and coming.
" A long time ago, I encountered an internet exegete (well known to many here) who suggested that John 6 was one of those texts that was irrefutably Calvinistic and that no one had ever been able to show a better interpretation than the Calvinist reading. Of course, he primarily referred to John 6:37-45. I took this issue to a well-known Arminian exegete, and he more or less concurred, again focusing on those specific verses with a slightly different understanding of the effects of God's drawing.
This, of course, presented a challenge to me. There are very few passages where only one interpretation exists among exegetes. So, I started looking at the broader context, and it ultimately led to a study and presentation for the SBL. While I am not going to cover everything I discovered, here are a few examples.
- In the broader narrative context (both John 5-7 and scattered throughout the gospel of John), the fundamental question is whether Jesus is the prophet who is to come. That is, is he the one promised by Moses to restore Israel? John's answer, of course, is "yes." Even the miracles that precede this section are framed as "Moses-like" miracles.
- When Jesus says, "Everything that the Father gives me will come to me," he is referring to the work given to him as the bread of life, the bread from heaven. I think this is a stumbling block for many who read this and even good exegetes miss it, but it was very evident to the Jews who heard him (6:41-42).
- John has what is called a "realized eschatology." That means that in this gospel, "the last days" are being initiated not with a second coming of Jesus, but the first. That is, Jesus is raised up as the prophet who is to come. Peter makes the same type of claim for Jesus in Acts. In Acts 2:17ff (Pentecost), the pouring out of the Spirit takes place "in the last days" as predicted by Joel. In Acts 3:22, Jesus is "raised up" as the prophet predicted by Moses.
brightfame52
Well-known member
The Father draws only the ones He has given to Christ in election, thats only reasonable and consistent,
Jn 6:37
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
And they are the ones given eternal life to Jn 17:2
As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
Jn 6:37
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
And they are the ones given eternal life to Jn 17:2
As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
these are they who are drawn
John 6:45 (NIV) — 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.
brightfame52
Well-known member
The Father draws only the ones He has given to Christ in election, thats only reasonable and consistent,
Jn 6:37
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
And they are the ones given eternal life to Jn 17:2
As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
civic
Well-known member
Nope Jesus says those who listen and learn from the Father are the same ones that will be drawn to the Son and come .
Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. 44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. 46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life.49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”
End of discussion
Next
brightfame52
Well-known member
The Father draws only the ones He has given to Christ in election, thats only reasonable and consistent,
Jn 6:37
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
And they are the ones given eternal life to Jn 17:2
As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
civic
Well-known member
Nope those who listen and learn from the Father. You are denying Jesus teaching in John 6.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
I love John 6:37. If the Father gives you to Jesus, you SHALL come to him. It doesn't depend on man's free will.
Bronson
Active member
The clearest verse on God’s drawing us to hear the Gospel is John 6:44 where Jesus declares that “no one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.”
Clearly, this drawing is a one-sided affair. God draws us to hear the salvation message; we who are drawn have a passive role in the process. There is no doubt that we respond to His drawing us, but the drawing itself isn't what saves us. After we are drawn and hear the gospel we have to make a decision to accept Jesus or reject him. That's where man's free will comes into play.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
That's not what the verse says. John 6:44 cannot be divorced from John 6:37. If the Father gives you to Jesus, you SHALL come to him. It doesn't depend on man's free will.
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. There's no "if they make the right decision" in that verse. There's no "if" at all.
Bronson
Active member
God Draws all men to Jesus.
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. John 12:32
So all men are drawn but not all men make a free will decision to accept Christ.
civic
Well-known member
Wrong the context is the following .
Eating , drinking , drawing and coming
When they found him on the other side of the lake, they asked him, “Rabbi, when did you get here?”
26 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, you are looking for me, not because you saw the signs I performed but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. 27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”
28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
30 So they asked him, “What sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do? 31 Our ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written: ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’”
32 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven,but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is the bread that comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”
34 “Sir,” they said, “always give us this bread.”
35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life.Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
41 At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?”
43 “Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. 44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. 46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life.49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”
52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”
53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59 He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.
The ones he gives are those that were his
John 17:1–6 (KJV 1900) — 1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. 4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. 6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
and he does so by
John 6:45 (KJV 1900) — 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
