Jesus denied being God

[MTMattie]

Well, since you brought it up let's look at it. Was Jesus tempted? The answer is yes. Can God be tempted? The answer is no.

Yet you can have a mortal who can forgive sins .

And you can have a mortal who can walk on water.

And you can have a mortal who can multiply food.

And you can have a mortal who can change water into wine...

And you can have a mortal lay dead for 3 days before he is resurrected and no smell of starting decay when they entered the tomb

And you can have a mortal who can raise the dead.

Why can you not comprehend that ......

OK. lets not talk about trinity but lets talk about the Man Jesus.

If ... but I dont know if you even believe there was or is a Holy Spirit or Spirit of God.... ???????????????????????????????????????????????????/

If, lets say it like this.

If you have a singular entity that was called YHWH (Old Testament) and he had a reason to want to create something because clouds, after a while, get boring and he calls out the troops, cause he wants something better then an ant farm. And He has plans for this creation... ultimately with Lucifer.... so he calls all the Angels and anything that mix mix it up with Him in heaven.

Because surely you would not expect a single entity called God to be all alone?????????? At least YOU have not brought Sophia into the mix... That is for the Presbyterian USA people.

So he pulls out his erector set, Lincoln Logs , and Modeling Clay. and Chemistry set...and the really really really big sketch pad so the blue prints and pictures can be done before he ever says let there be light.

And he spies the Spirit floating by and tells the Spirit that he has a job for him.

He wants the Spirit to go scour the vastness of space because He plans on creating something, that to date was, unheard of and magnificent.

So the Spirt was sent out to scout around.

And finally He reported back and it began.

Somewhere along the way YHWH started to open up about His plan.. and that plan had something to do with all of the new creations and being able to offer them an eternity in heaven, or an eternity where the worst of the lot would spend days without Him... or even cease to exist.

So, While the Spirit is scouting, and whatever ... YHWH went to talk to the Word.... He asked him for some help and then offered up a plan

He was going to have the Word ,temporarily, become human, so the Word could do what we have always said Jesus came to do.

In order for that to happen There would need to be a baby who grew into a man , and that man had to live as a man to get others to understand how they were to follow and teach about him and live. He had to teach by example.

This was not to be a forever situation and YHWH would do it himself, but someone had to be calling the shots.

The Word, without hesitation stood up to the plate.... and the rest is history.

Now why can you not understand that if God could have Mary impregnated, without a touch. If God could actually mold and create life as in Adam, and yank a rib (bone) from Adam and make Adam a woman that he "COULD'' touch, And give power to raise a dead person... and every single thing we believe God capable of

Why cant you believe the ability of the Word to enter into life as Jesus to carry out what Jesus had to do? Having put His Godliness on hold until it was time.

 

[MTMattie]

If you don't mind, could you briefly list out what those arguments are, with supporting Bible verses? Please limit the list to your 3 best arguments and permit us to critique them.

And which translation they come from?

 

[Studyman]

It is interesting that @Studyman also is aligned with @Pancho Frijoles as I note his incorrect doctrines about the law (even if I have thought at times he sounded okay). This set of his other incorrect doctrines is what seems to happen with people who deny the Trinitarian doctrine.
People should be able to work out there understanding of scriptures with others. So hopefully that can happen. But we mostly see people who have dug in their heels. Of course, that is often why people have joined a forum -- because they want to share ideas they hold strongly
May grace abound in our Lord Jesus Christ.

That certainly describes your presence here mikew. Heels dug in. It would be nice if men would answer each other questions, even if the answer exposes an error in their own heart. I think this difference of approach can be defined by who is here seeking perspective and Biblical Truth, VS. who is here to promote an adopted religious sect or philosophy.

I have watched on the very forum, Trinitarians of different religious sects and businesses fight tooth and nail against each other, never working out their understanding of Scriptures. How many threads have been posted about Calvinism by Non-Calvinists? Both religious sects who have adopted Trinitarian philosophy.

Maybe Jesus was onto something in Matt. 6.

 

[mikesw]

That certainly describes your presence here mikew. Heels dug in. It would be nice if men would answer each other questions, even if the answer exposes an error in their own heart. I think this difference of approach can be defined by who is here seeking perspective and Biblical Truth, VS. who is here to promote an adopted religious sect or philosophy.ity.forum/threads/the-bible-does-not-teach

I have watched on the very forum, Trinitarians of different religious sects and businesses fight tooth and nail against each other, never working out their understanding of Scriptures. How many threads have been posted about Calvinism by Non-Calvinists? Both religious sects who have adopted Trinitarian philosophy.

Maybe Jesus was onto something in Matt. 6.

Consider how you have sided with Pancho Frijoles who constantly denigrates Jesus and verges on (or achieves?) blasphemy. Enough said.

See my post in response to his denigration: #link the-bible-does-not-teach-to-pray-to-jesus.2040/post-118201

 

[Studyman]

Yet you can have a mortal who can forgive sins .

By the Power of His God and my God that Granted Levite Priests the power to forgive sins, Yes?

And you can have a mortal who can walk on water.

Both Peter and Jesus walked on water, and Moses divided the Red Sea. Was this also not by the Power of the Same God and Father of Jesus?

And you can have a mortal who can multiply food.

By the Power of His Father and my Father, Yes?

And you can have a mortal who can change water into wine...

Moses changed water into blood, by the Power of the Same God and Father of the Lord's Christ, Yes?

And you can have a mortal lay dead for 3 days before he is resurrected and no smell of starting decay when they entered the tomb

By the power of the Same God, Yes?

And you can have a mortal who can raise the dead.

By the power of the Same God who allowed Elijah to raise a dead child, Yes?

Can I not Trust the very Words of the Jesus "of the Bible" Himself, to tell me where His Power comes from?

 

[Studyman]

Consider how you have sided with Pancho Frijoles who constantly denigrates Jesus and verges on (or achieves?) blasphemy. Enough said.

Why don't you address what I posted?

How much more can one degrade the man Jesus, than by preaching to the world that HE overcame Sin and Temptation, not by Faith, as HE instructs others to have, but because HE was God, and God can't sin, can't be tempted, can't die.

Therefore, by promoting this philosophy, you are saying Jesus was a fraud, that risked His Life for no one, that overcame nothing, as God has no need to overcome. And yet gave Himself a Name above all names, and crowned Himself with such Glory, and is now standing on the right Hand of Himself, advocating between me and HIM.

I don't think you have thought through this popular religious philosophy you have adopted. It is my hope that you might think on it a little more, like Pancho has.

 

[mikesw]

Why don't you address what I posted?

How much more can one degrade the man Jesus, than by preaching to the world that HE overcame Sin and Temptation, not by Faith, as HE instructs others to have, but because HE was God, and God can't sin, can't be tempted, can't die.

Therefore, by promoting this philosophy, you are saying Jesus was a fraud, that risked His Life for no one, that overcame nothing, as God has no need to overcome. And yet gave Himself a Name above all names, and crowned Himself with such Glory, and is now standing on the right Hand of Himself, advocating between me and HIM.

I don't think you have thought through this popular religious philosophy you have adopted. It is my hope that you might think on it a little more, like Pancho has.

If you have an argument sufficient to overcome the testimony of Christ's deity in scripture, make your book that covers all the details necessary.

 

[Studyman]

If you have an argument sufficient to overcome the testimony of Christ's deity in scripture, make your book that covers all the details necessary.

Like I said, it would be so nice if men where here to discuss what is actually written and ask and answer each other's questions in search of Biblical Truth and edification, as opposed to being on a mission to preserve and promote the doctrines and philosophies of one or more of this world's popular religious sects and businesses.

 

[mikesw]

Like I said, it would be so nice if men where here to discuss what is actually written and ask and answer each other's questions in search of Biblical Truth and edification, as opposed to being on a mission to preserve and promote the doctrines and philosophies of one or more of this world's popular religious sects and businesses.

I think it would be nice if people who have an issue with the scripture testimony of the deity of Christ would address those verses. People either speak about the humanity of Christ or they have really bad alternative interpretations of the passages about his deity.

 

[TomL]

I have given a ton of data showing the Trinity is not from God. What the Trinity folks do is take what I post and say nope that's not true so try again. Try to really answer the question as to why you say you don't believe Jesus emptied himself. Here I will post it again...

A more deluded claim I have not seen

It was shown the bible calls Jesus God
Jesus possesses divine titles and abilities reserved for God alone
Verses after verse was produced showing the angel of the lord is God and YHWH
Verse after verse was shown that no man had seen God the father and that Jesus has revealed him
Jesus was shown to be the image of God the express image of his person
That he existed in the form of God
Scripture shows the Holy Spirit is personal and God

and as for emptying himself the question is what did he empty himself of?

You taught he was an impersonal plan and could never explain how that was consistent with Phil 2:5ff

additionally it is hard to see how an impersonal plan could empty himself

 

[MTMattie]

Are we witnessing 2 Cor 4: 3-4?

 

[Runningman]

Then your problem is with scripture

Not me

Then your problem is with Scripture. You think God perpetuated idolatry by representing Himself as a dove. The holy spirit was an anointing in Matthew 3:16,17. It's not a Trinity prooftext.

 

[Runningman]

oh my. you found the wrong Jesus, the New World NT and OT. This makes you the blind leading the blind. Do you have a real argument to follow rather than this gibberish? Nothing you share even suggests you trust scriptures or the God who gave us the real scriptures. You have even been a witness to how these people like Peterlag and runningman fail to give sufficient alternative explanations to the passages that point out the deity of Christ. At some point, you should be noting that their conception is unsupported.

Wait a sec, aren't you the one in the hotseat for pushing a dogma that isn't even stated in Scripture? You're the Trinitarian here. You need to be the one scrambling to put out the fires left and right with all the Scripture being brought against your teachings. I just find it ironic that you think that the people who are here showing you that the Trinity isn't a real Scriptural concept are at the disadvantage or have something to prove. Hey, we're the ones with all of the Bible on our side with Jesus denying being God, teaching others to worship and pray to someone else, and then none of his followers ever actually demonstrating they agree with your doctrines in example or directly in teaching.

 

[Runningman]

Voice from heaven #`1

Jusus coming out of the water #2

Descending Dove #3.

I count 3 in this scenario... how about you?

Three of who or what? I am only counting 1 God. 1 man. and 1 dove.

What seems to be your problem? (I might remind you that the Holy Spirit was also in the very beginning of earth.... 2The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.

That's the Father who is a holy Spirit according to Scripture.

John 4 (KJV)
23But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Kind of like when the Spirit descended onto Jesus.... Gently moving to Him.

DID YOU EVER READ ANY OF ENOCH?

Here is a side story... provided for entertainment as well as education....

Part of Enoch's story about creation states this....

So, according to your teachings, Jesus didn't have the Holy Spirit until his water baptism?

Enoch and the Mysteries of God – 2 Enoch 23-37​

After he becomes like the angels, Enoch is instructed by Vrevoil, the swiftest of the archangels who records all the Lord’s deeds. After being instructed for 30 days and 30 nights, Enoch records this instruction in 366 books (22:10-23:6; Recension A has 360 books). After writing the books, Enoch is invited to sit next to the Lord with Gabriel.
God proceeds to explain “mysteries” of creation and the fall to Enoch:

• Chapter 24 – God created visible from invisible.
• Chapter 26 – An invisible thing (Adiol) descends and God commands it to disintegrate. A great light comes from this creature; the great light becomes the “great age” of creation. God established his throne in this creation.
• Chapter 27-28 – God creates water and land from the light and darkness. Seven circles are established for seven stars. This is the first day of the creation week.
• Chapter 29 – On Monday (the second day) God fashions rock from the fiery substance of heaven. On this day Satanail falls, he was hurled out of heaven and is now flying around in the air above the bottomless pit.
• Chapter 30 – On Tuesday (the third day) God commands the earth to create trees and grasses; God laid out paradise as a garden. Enoch On Wednesday (the fourth day) God establishes the stars, sun and moon in the various circles of the heavens. On Thursday he commands the seas to bring forth fish and birds. On Friday God creates Man out of seven components with seven properties. Man was assigned to the earth as a second angel, to reign as a king. He was named Adam and given free will to either love God or hate him (30:15).
• Chapter 31 – Adam is given a single task but the devil entered paradise and corrupted Eve. This devil did not speak to Adam, therefore it is on account of Eve the Lord curses mankind. This is obviously at odds with Romans 5:12-21 where Adam is blamed for death and sin, Eve is not mentioned.
• Chapter 32 – Adam is removed from the garden after his transgression (after only five and a half hours!)
• Chapter 33 – Enoch is told there will be 7000 years of human existence, with an eighth thousand with not days, months, or years (probably an eternal state.) Presumably there will be one thousand for each of the days of creation. The idea of seven creational days = 7000 years of human history crosses over into Christianity via the Epistle of Barnabas but is not found in the Bible.
• Chapter 34 – The judgment of the flood on the sinner who accepted a different yoke than the Lord’s yoke. The sins listed here are fornication and sodomy.
• Chapter 35 – God promises to allow one righteous man from Enoch’s line to survive the flood for the purpose of passing along the words of Enoch.
• Chapter 36 – Enoch is commanded to live for thirty days on the earth for the purpose of passing on the wisdom he has learned during his heavenly journeys.
• Chapter 36 – Enoch is returned to earth by one of the senior angels.

While this section claims to survey human history from creation to the flood, the point is to exhort the reader to moral living in the light of imminent judgment. Creation is the basis for morality, sin is not the normal state, nor is sin the fault of Adam (Eve is to blame; Satan is to blame; but not Adam). While God will surely judge the sinner, he offers salvation for the one committed to following his commands. These commands make up the bulk of the rest of the book. There are some obvious differences from the biblical text with respect to salvation history in 2 Enoch, primarily in Adam’s culpability for the fall. Even in Genesis Adam is held ultimately responsible; Romans 5:12-21 and 1 Corinthians 15:24 make clear it was through Adam sin entered the world. To shift the blame to the woman exalts Adam.

Okay. Care to explain how that is related to what we were talking about?

 

[mikesw]

Wait a sec, aren't you the one in the hotseat for pushing a dogma that isn't even stated in Scripture? You're the Trinitarian here. You need to be the one scrambling to put out the fires left and right with all the Scripture being brought against your teachings. I just find it ironic that you think that the people who are here showing you that the Trinity isn't a real Scriptural concept are at the disadvantage or have something to prove. Hey, we're the ones with all of the Bible on our side with Jesus denying being God, teaching others to worship and pray to someone else, and then none of his followers ever actually demonstrating they agree with your doctrines in example or directly in teaching.

I would have thought you would have a decent argument against the passages showing the divinity of Christ before you reject it. I still am waiting to see some decent arguments. You are the one who is trying to revitalize a rejected doctrine. Make sure you cover the passages that reject your view. You are the one who is trying to wake people up to your keen perception.

 

[TomL]

Then your problem is with Scripture. You think God perpetuated idolatry by representing Himself as a dove. The holy spirit was an anointing in Matthew 3:16,17. It's not a Trinity prooftext.

Nope for scripture not me states it

John 1:32 (KJV 1900) — 32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.

 

[TomL]

Three of who or what? I am only counting 1 God. 1 man. and 1 dove.

Regarding the dove

John 1:32 (KJV 1900) — 32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.

That's one

The voice stating this is my beloved son you now call God contrary to your earlier balking

That is two

The man you refer to

John 20:28–29 (KJV 1900) — 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. 29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

is three

 

[Runningman]

I would have thought you would have a decent argument against the passages showing the divinity of Christ before you reject it. I still am waiting to see some decent arguments. You are the one who is trying to revitalize a rejected doctrine. Make sure you cover the passages that reject your view. You are the one who is trying to wake people up to your keen perception.

Divinity doesn't mean deity. Jesus has divinity, as do many others, but is not deity like God is. If you wanted to make the little god argument like Jesus did in John 10, quoting Psalm 82, you may have a case. In which case, that is also yet another argument against Jesus being the Most High, but rather a son of the Most High like there are other sons of the Most High.

 

[Runningman]

Nope for scripture not me states it

John 1:32 (KJV 1900) — 32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.

You have a problem with this verse.

Luke 3 (KJV)
22And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

 

[Runningman]

Regarding the dove

John 1:32 (KJV 1900) — 32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.

That's one

The voice stating this is my beloved son you now call God contrary to your earlier balking

That is two

The man you refer to

John 20:28–29 (KJV 1900) — 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. 29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

is three

So John 1:32 doesn't contain the Trinity. It contains a man, a symbolic dove, and God speaking from heaven.

Jesus said his and his brothers' God is the Father. So Thomas wasn't addressing Jesus, but making a declaration about the Father.

I'm still counting one God.

John 20
17Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.