Thomas... My Lord and my God

[TibiasDad]

There's no indication that Jesus was ever omniscient.

The man Jesus did not avail himself of his natural attributes. This too is part of the κενόω, the emptying, the divestment of that privilege and right he had in his natural form of being equal to God. If the Word that became flesh is from eternity past, then he is necessarily God and thus omniscient.

Doug

 

[Runningman]

Yes, but it shows what that mindset was for him: to willing lay aside the reality of “being in very nature God” to “empty himself” of the rights and privileges being God, in order to become like us, live like us, and love us in our reality and circumstance.

The glory of being fully spiritual is not possible in natural human form. The glory of a spiritual body that can encapsulate the glory that he shared with the Father before creation began.

Thanks for sharing your opinions, but that isn't Scripture.

4I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do.

This is not Jesus’s glory, but the Father’s given by Jesus “by finishing the work you gave me to do.”


5And now, Father, glorify me in your presence…

Now Jesus is asking the Father to glorify “me”, Jesus, “in your presence”, that is to say personally by, and in proximity to the Father.

The next question is, with what should the Father glorify Jesus? Answer:

“…with the glory I had with you before the world began.”

First, the reference point is “before the world began”, ie, pre creation or eternity past. This is the same reference point that John uses in Jn 1:1, “In the beginning”, that is that moment just before “Let there be light” was proclaimed into the darkness!

This Jesus, the Word, was existent in eternity before creation, and the only thing that can exist in eternity is God! This leads to the next point, the only glory in eternity is the glory of God, and the glory of each member of the Godhead is equal in every way.

This is why Jesus said, “…with the glory I had with you before the world began.”

It was a singular and shared glory they all had in their natural state of existence. And now he is asking to have it returned to him.

Doug

John 1:1 doesn't specify what beginning John was referring to. Since there was no one named the Word in the beginning with God is Genesis then John was probably referring to the beginning of Jesus' ministry, much in the same way he alluded to in 1 John 1:1-3 in which John refers to the Word as something that was revealed to them by Jesus, not something that Jesus is.

In John 17:4,5 the word "world" doesn't necessarily refer to the physical universe. Sometimes it can be used in the sense of refers to the inhabitants of the world, instead of the actual physical planet or universe itself. There is also no record in Scripture of Jesus pre-existing. Since the period of glory Jesus seems to be refering to is for what he did on earth then Jesus seems to not be referring to a literal pre-existent glory, but rather somrthing Jesus had with God is a pre-existent sense, which is not unprecedent. God also has pre-existent glory for others, but it doesn't mean they literally pre-existed and incarnated in order to receive said glory.

Jesus' glory is like this,. Jesus was predestined, called, justified, and glorified wasn't he?

Romans 8
30And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified.

 

[Runningman]

The man Jesus did not avail himself of his natural attributes. This too is part of the κενόω, the emptying, the divestment of that privilege and right he had in his natural form of being equal to God. If the Word that became flesh is from eternity past, then he is necessarily God and thus omniscient.

Doug

Jesus seemed to be privvy to knowledge that he otherwise should not have been able to know. How do you maintain a sense of consistency when Jesus also proved there were things he didn't know? He had awesome powers, but also proved his power was dependent on others? Also why do you think God needed to consider equality with God is he is already God? Do you believe Jesus when he flatout said God is greater than him?

Matthew 24
36No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,g but only the Father.

Matthew 13
58And He did not do many miracles there, because of their unbelief.

 

[TibiasDad]

Thanks for sharing your opinions, but that isn't Scripture.

Thanks for sharing yours, but that doesn’t explain why I am wrong in my comment or what you believe is the correct interpretation of scripture by means of scripture!

John 1:1 doesn't specify what beginning John was referring to. Since there was no one named the Word in the beginning with God is Genesis then John was probably referring to the beginning of Jesus' ministry, much in the same way he alluded to in 1 John 1:1-3 in which John refers to the Word as something that was revealed to them by Jesus, not something that Jesus is.

1) Your hermetic is showing its weakness! You must interpret 1John 1:1-3 by means of the initial occurrence in John 1:1-3.

2) John 1:1-3 uses “Beginning” in the absolute sense of prior to creation because the one who “was”, imperfect tense, in the beginning is the one who was the means of creation’s existence occurring.

That which creates necessarily precedes what is created! That is John’s point: “the Word” who created “all things” is eternal and therefore is necessarily God because only God is eternal.

3) The Word was not revealed by Jesus to the disciples, because Jesus is the Word in human flesh. “The Word became flesh.”

4) Ὃ ἦν ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς is”That which was from the beginning”. John is pointing back to the opening of his gospel, and uses the neuter noun, “that” which was already existent at the point of the beginning. It cannot mean the start of his ministry for ‘the start of his ministry” is not eternal, but only he, the Word, being God is eternal.


Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Jesus' glory is like this,. Jesus was predestined, called, justified, and glorified wasn't he?

Romans 8
30And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified.

Jesus was never “justified” for he was without sin.

Doug