Jesus denied being God

[Studyman]

No, but the argument has been that Jesus never said he was God, in the bible.

No. The argument you put forward is that when Jesus said "I and my father are one", you claim this is Jesus telling you that He "Is God His Father".

What I posted, is all the places where Jesus said His Father sent Him, gave Him His Power, gave him His Words, gave him His Spirit and His Wisdom, not that His Father "Was Him".

I know you and I were both taught by this world's religions that Jesus was God, and the same religions even created an image of God in the likeness of some random, long-haired man. And they created their own high days in worship of this image. What I hope you might consider is that the Jesus "of the Bible" did none of these things, nor did HE advocate for them. In fact, HE warned of this very thing, from this very people who come in His Name.

It's hard to "come out of" this world's religious systems, but Abraham did. Caleb did, Zacharias did, and most importantly, Jesus the man did. I hope you might consider these things.

I provided 2 examples and asked what they meant.

The reason Jesus was born and given what he was to do while here is all true with what has been said.

But the fact is.... there is proof to me that Jesus and God the Father (ignoreing the Holy Spirit right now) are God.

Only by ignoring some of the Christ's Words, and twisting others, can a man conclude that Jesus wasn't "Sent" by God, rather, that HE "Was God". And there is only ONE True God in all Scriptures, and Jesus worshipped this God. And instructed me to do the same, as HE was Chosen by God to be my savior and High Priest, to mediate between me and His God and my God.

I don't believe that God is the statue overlooking Rio de Janeiro.

Jesus said I am the Father are one.

Jesus said “Very truly I tell you, . . . before Abraham was born, I am!” (which The Jews, upon hearing Him, clearly understood that He was claiming preexistence and, more than that, to be Yahweh, the great “I AM” of Exodus 3:14.)

God's Word, God's Love, God's Righteousness, God's Wisdom, God's Power, all of which was given to Jesus, and defined Him, existed even before the world was.

And even if the Spirit of Christ, the Will of Christ, the Righteousness of Christ was a separate entity that existed apart from God, before Abraham was, HE still called this same ONE True God, "His Father". And HE instructed me to do the same.

What if it is this world's religions who, as prophesied, have gone astray, and it's the Jesus "of the Bible" who speaks the truth about His God and my God? Surely a man seeking God's Truth, should consider these things, Yes?

So He claimed it referencing these two parts of the bible... The Old and New testaments.

People do not deny the fact that Jesus was. Or that He came and did.
But they do deny He was/is God... and one argument is that they claim He never said it .

He never did say it, although He spoke many Words, and instructed us concerning His Father of many things, including how to worship "Him", how to pray to "Him", whose Righteousness and Kingdom to "Seek First", etc.

Why do you think He never said "I am the One True God", instead HE always saying, "The One True God sent Me".

I want those who say he isn't/wasn't to explain these two.... verses.... and then explain if He lied... how could He be our savior.

Bleassings

Being One with God doesn't make a man God, just as a man being one with his wife, doesn't make the man his wife. Just like being one with Christ, doesn't make a man the Christ.

This explains one of the two verses men use to discredit all the Words of Jesus calling His Father, His God and my God. That leaves just one verse in the entire Bible that men use to support their religious philosophy that Jesus was "Fully God" as a man.

And the Word of God, the Messenger of God, the Righteousness of God, the Wisdom of God, the Love of God, all of which embodies perfectly the man Jesus, existed with God even before the world was. If I want to know the Love of God, the Righteousness of God, the Wisdom of God, the Compassion of God, the Grace of God, I need to look no further than the Christ, Who God sent.

Or, I can take this one verse, adopt the philosophies of this world religious sects and businesses who have created an image of God in the likeness of a random, long-haired man, and place my trust in them, over the Words actually spoken by the Jesus "of the Bible".

Jesus didn't lie, God sent Him to be my Savior and High Priest. God gave Him the Power to forgive my sins and cleanse me. I don't believe Jesus lied to me, I believe it is the "Many" "who come in Christ's Name" that this same Jesus warned about, that has lied to us.

 

[Studyman]

You can be strengthened against the deceivers if you start learning from the people that are correcting your errors in perception of scripture. That is why you are not on an island being blocked from communicating with others.

I have asked you, a self-proclaimed minister of righteousness, to show me in the Scriptures where Paul or anyone taught that Gentile Christians rejected Jews, and didn't believe they could be saved. I asked nice, and several times. But you refused to answer or even acknowledge my questions. I attempt to communicate with this world's religious teachers, but they don't seem interested in Biblical Truth, only to promote their own religious opinions or philosophies.

In contrast Pancho answered my questions honestly and from the heart. He shared his opinions and declared they were his, and he shared what he saw as Biblical facts as well. I am free to agree with, investigate or not agree with his understanding and I can ask him anything I want, and he will answer. You want me to learn from you, but to do that, I must be willing to accept whatever you preach, without question. The next guy on this forum, who believes differently than you, requires the same devotion to their religious philosophies. Take these times 1000, and you have this world's religious system.

Just because my understanding of scriptures is different than yours, doesn't make you right and me wrong, or visa versa. I believe we should share understandings in the pursuit of Biblical Truth, not for the purse of self-exaltation or to promote some random philosophy of some random religious sect or business of this world.

I am glad to have an honest discussion of scriptures anytime you like. But if we can't ask questions, or won't answer them, what is the point.

You neglect scripture to come to your view.

Perhaps instead of just "declaring things", you might give an example of Scriptures that I neglect.

You take the low hanging fruit that is starting to rot instead of going deeper into scripture to comprehend the nuances.

Again, anyone can accuse, but how does that edify? Shouldn't you present something as evidence of my reprobate behavior so that I might be corrected by the same Scriptures I hold as Holy?

You think God is so shallow that you can simply understand everything about the Godhead with a superficial reading of scriptures.

I certainly don't understand "Everything" about the Godhead, but I do believe and understand what God, through His messengers, have shown me.

1 Cor. 11: 3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

Eph. 4: 4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

And this Lord is standing at the Right Hand of His Father, as an advocate between me and His god and my God even now.

What evidence do you have that this is not Truth considering the Godhead?

Proverbs 25:2, which states, "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter"

Amen.

 

[Peterlag]

Old Testament​

[edit]
The Old Testament has been interpreted as referring to the Trinity in many places. For example, in the Genesis creation narrative, specifically the first-person plural pronouns in Genesis 1:26–27 and Genesis 3:22 ('Let us make man in our image [...] the man is become as one of us').

There has to be a reason why trinity people think Genesis is teaching the trinity, but I don't know what it is. The book does not say now here's the trinity on how Jesus will become God. They say because God said "let us" and that means He had to me only talking to Himself. Weird but they believe this. If I said it in my home "let us." I could have been talking with my kids, wife, or even the dog. Why would you say this is prof I was talking to my other self? God could have been talking to any one of His spirit beings. Angels or angel like creatures or even Cherubims.

"Then God said, 'Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.' [...] "Then the LORD God said, 'Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil [...]"
— Genesis 1:26, 3:22 ESV

 

[Peterlag]

What does this mean???????????????????/

John 10:30, Jesus said, "I and the Father are one.".

What does this mean??????????????????/

Jesus made another statement claiming to be God when He said, “Very truly I tell you, . . . before Abraham was born, I am!” (John 8:58). The Jews, upon hearing Him, clearly understood that He was claiming preexistence and, more than that, to be Yahweh, the great “I AM” of Exodus 3:14.

Always remember: If He were a mere man, His death would have been only sufficient to pay for His own sins, but because He was God in the flesh, His sacrifice was infinite and holy and able to pay for all the sins of the world.

John 10:30
There is no reason to take this verse to mean that Christ was saying that he and the Father make up "one God." The phrase was a common one, and even today if someone used it, people would know exactly what they meant... he and his Father are very much alike. When Paul wrote to the Corinthians about his ministry there, he said that he had planted the seed and Apollos had watered it. Then he said, "... he who plants and he who waters are one..." (1 Corinthians 3:8 NKJV). In the Greek texts, the wording of Paul is the same as that in John 10:30, yet no one claims that Paul and Apollos make up "one being." Christ uses the concept of "being one" in other places, and from them one can see that "one purpose" is what is meant. John 11:52 says Jesus was to die to make all God's children "one." In John 17:11, 21 and 22, Jesus prayed to God that his followers would be "one" as he and God were "one." I think it's obvious that Jesus was not praying that all his followers would become one being in "substance" just as he and his Father were one being or "substance." I believe the meaning is clear: Jesus was praying that all his followers be one in purpose just as he and God were one in purpose.

 

[Peterlag]

No, I say that because you did not deal with it

I write much on here many times and I don't respond to everything mostly because people post stuff often that makes no sense and also I am often responding to 9 different people and many of them post 25 verses and then like you complain that I did not respond to all 25. There is nothing hard to deal with when it comes to the following verse. I have the mind of Christ because I walk in the spirit. But you think it means something different and that somehow you are going to twist it into the trinity and then tell me I did not answer the question because in your mind that verse has to have something to do with the spirit being a person or involved in a trinity.

Philippians 2:5
Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

 

[TomL]

I write much on here many times and I don't respond to everything mostly because people post stuff often that makes no sense and also I am often responding to 9 different people and many of them post 25 verses and then like you complain that I did not respond to all 25. There is nothing hard to deal with when it comes to the following verse. I have the mind of Christ because I walk in the spirit. But you think it means something different and that somehow you are going to twist it into the trinity and then tell me I did not answer the question because in your mind that verse has to have something to do with the spirit being a person or involved in a trinity.

Philippians 2:5
Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

So what excuse can you offer now for not dealing with the passage

Does an impersonal thing have a mind?

Can an impersonal thing think about equality?

Can an impersonal thing humble itself?

Make itself something other?

 

[Peterlag]

So what excuse can you offer now for not dealing with the passage

Does an impersonal thing have a mind?

Can an impersonal thing think about equality?

Can an impersonal thing humble itself?

Make itself something other?

See I did answer your question again and you will not receive my answer so you turn it into I'm not answering. You say the spirit (which is an it) then means it is impersonal. I never said that. You say that and then want me to explain you. When I can't explain you is when you say I'm not answering. The spirit communications with God and with me. Did I say it was impersonal? No you did.

 

[Runningman]

Sure. I do not prefer to follow non-Christ-centered religions such as Buddhism, Muslim, Hinduism, nor to what? Mormonism -- where you are becoming another god?

Me too! I don't believe I will become God or another god despite Scripture saying that those who overcome will receive the same inheritance as Jesus, sit on his throne, rule with him, etc. Wow. If Jesus is God then what stops you from making others God for being promised the exact same things as him?

 

[Runningman]

See I did answer your question again and you will not receive my answer so you turn it into I'm not answering. You say the spirit (which is an it) then means it is impersonal. I never said that. You say that and then want me to explain you. When I can't explain you is when you say I'm not answering. The spirit communications with God and with me. Did I say it was impersonal? No you did.

That's a debate tactic. You'll notice something that this is less about truth for some people and more about strategy. They want to keep you on the receiving end of the questions to keep you in the position of defense. When you think it's your turn to rebuttal, they will often ignore it or say you're dodging. It becomes more like an interrogation than a debate. Most of these debates are not moderated or structured. I would just keep pumping out the truth. You're doing a fabulous job.

 

[mikesw]

Me too! I don't believe I will become God or another god despite Scripture saying that those who overcome will receive the same inheritance as Jesus, sit on his throne, rule with him, etc. Wow. If Jesus is God then what stops you from making others God for being promised the exact same things as him?

That is the idiocy of what you pretend. You pretend that Jesus is a distinct god from the Shema. Jesus is divinity in that Godhead. When you fail to recognize the testimony of scripture as well as the Trinitarian reconciliation of details of scripture, you really have been led far astray.

 

[MTMattie]

No. The argument you put forward is that when Jesus said "I and my father are one", you claim this is Jesus telling you that He "Is God His Father".

What I posted, is all the places where Jesus said His Father sent Him, gave Him His Power, gave him His Words, gave him His Spirit and His Wisdom, not that His Father "Was Him".

I know you and I were both taught by this world's religions that Jesus was God, and the same religions even created an image of God in the likeness of some random, long-haired man. And they created their own high days in worship of this image. What I hope you might consider is that the Jesus "of the Bible" did none of these things, nor did HE advocate for them. In fact, HE warned of this very thing, from this very people who come in His Name.

It's hard to "come out of" this world's religious systems, but Abraham did. Caleb did, Zacharias did, and most importantly, Jesus the man did. I hope you might consider these things.




Only by ignoring some of the Christ's Words, and twisting others, can a man conclude that Jesus wasn't "Sent" by God, rather, that HE "Was God". And there is only ONE True God in all Scriptures, and Jesus worshipped this God. And instructed me to do the same, as HE was Chosen by God to be my savior and High Priest, to mediate between me and His God and my God.

I don't believe that God is the statue overlooking Rio de Janeiro.



God's Word, God's Love, God's Righteousness, God's Wisdom, God's Power, all of which was given to Jesus, and defined Him, existed even before the world was.

And even if the Spirit of Christ, the Will of Christ, the Righteousness of Christ was a separate entity that existed apart from God, before Abraham was, HE still called this same ONE True God, "His Father". And HE instructed me to do the same.

What if it is this world's religions who, as prophesied, have gone astray, and it's the Jesus "of the Bible" who speaks the truth about His God and my God? Surely a man seeking God's Truth, should consider these things, Yes?



He never did say it, although He spoke many Words, and instructed us concerning His Father of many things, including how to worship "Him", how to pray to "Him", whose Righteousness and Kingdom to "Seek First", etc.

Why do you think He never said "I am the One True God", instead HE always saying, "The One True God sent Me".



Being One with God doesn't make a man God, just as a man being one with his wife, doesn't make the man his wife. Just like being one with Christ, doesn't make a man the Christ.

This explains one of the two verses men use to discredit all the Words of Jesus calling His Father, His God and my God. That leaves just one verse in the entire Bible that men use to support their religious philosophy that Jesus was "Fully God" as a man.

And the Word of God, the Messenger of God, the Righteousness of God, the Wisdom of God, the Love of God, all of which embodies perfectly the man Jesus, existed with God even before the world was. If I want to know the Love of God, the Righteousness of God, the Wisdom of God, the Compassion of God, the Grace of God, I need to look no further than the Christ, Who God sent.

Or, I can take this one verse, adopt the philosophies of this world religious sects and businesses who have created an image of God in the likeness of a random, long-haired man, and place my trust in them, over the Words actually spoken by the Jesus "of the Bible".

Jesus didn't lie, God sent Him to be my Savior and High Priest. God gave Him the Power to forgive my sins and cleanse me. I don't believe Jesus lied to me, I believe it is the "Many" "who come in Christ's Name" that this same Jesus warned about, that has lied to us.

We will never agree on this because I see things with a clarity that you dont and you have your talking points against all at the ready.

Blessngs

 

[Peterlag]

That's a debate tactic. You'll notice something that this is less about truth for some people and more about strategy. They want to keep you on the receiving end of the questions to keep you in the position of defense. When you think it's your turn to rebuttal, they will often ignore it or say you're dodging. It becomes more like an interrogation than a debate. Most of these debates are not moderated or structured. I would just keep pumping out the truth. You're doing a fabulous job.

There's a few I will not respond to because they attack me personally and I just found another one. I'm growing tired of the accusing and blaming me personally as they do just what you say... ignore my data and say I'm not answering there Scriptures. They are not posting Scriptures. They are posting what they want the Scriptures to say.

 

[mikesw]

There's a few I will not respond to because they attack me personally and I just found another one. I'm growing tired of the accusing and blaming me personally as they do just what you say... ignore my data and say I'm not answering there Scriptures. They are not posting Scriptures. They are posting what they want the Scriptures to say.

If Peterlag had an argument that dealt with the passages that he knows are used to show the deity of Christ in the Godhead, he might have got some decent attention. It is the same affirmation of the humanity of Christ. Indeed we know a human was born as Jesus. He does not get to the divinity aspect with any basic logic, as in John 1. If someone has arguments against those passages, present those passages and give your alternative interpretation. Get to the heart of the matter.

 

[MTMattie]

There's a few I will not respond to because they attack me personally and I just found another one. I'm growing tired of the accusing and blaming me personally as they do just what you say... ignore my data and say I'm not answering there Scriptures. They are not posting Scriptures. They are posting what they want the Scriptures to say.

Meant for me, I am sure.

I wont comment again.

Be blessed

 

[Runningman]

That is the idiocy of what you pretend. You pretend that Jesus is a distinct god from the Shema. Jesus is divinity in that Godhead. When you fail to recognize the testimony of scripture as well as the Trinitarian reconciliation of details of scripture, you really have been led far astray.

You don't have any testimony from Scripture about Jesus being in a triune godhead. You are legit, 100%, making things up.

 

[Runningman]

There's a few I will not respond to because they attack me personally and I just found another one. I'm growing tired of the accusing and blaming me personally as they do just what you say... ignore my data and say I'm not answering there Scriptures. They are not posting Scriptures. They are posting what they want the Scriptures to say.

Yes, just know that when they have lost all ability to rebuttal with Scripture, the next best thing they can do is just attack your character. It's widely known and accepted the world over that when a debate opponent begins attacking their opponent that they've lost. It's just that most people can't take to ego hit, have any semblance of class, and move on with grace. While ignoring them works, I prefer to not ignore them. Let's see how deep they can dig their hole.

 

[Runningman]

There's a few I will not respond to because they attack me personally and I just found another one. I'm growing tired of the accusing and blaming me personally as they do just what you say... ignore my data and say I'm not answering there Scriptures. They are not posting Scriptures. They are posting what they want the Scriptures to say.

I would also add, you are dealing with your faith from an entirely Scriptural perspective. You like objectivity, facts, concrete statements about what you believe taken directly from the Bible. I agree with that approach which is probably why we tend to agree so much on this particular point. I assume we probably agree about many things as well.

However, Trinitarianism revolves more around tradition, creeds, post-biblical support, extra-biblical material, and feelings rather than actual Scripture. That's why we can't reach them using the Bible 99% of the time. They don't use the Bible for the foundation of the Trinity since the Trinity isn't found in Scripture. So this is a matter of belief meets the authoritative word of God. May as well be trying to convert a Muslim to Christianity using the Bible. If you can't get a Trin to believe the Scripture's regarding who God and Jesus are, it most likely will not work on a Muslim.

Now, I went to a Trinitarian church many a year ago. Actually, I didn't believe it. I wanted to believe it because I was a believer in God, but I wasn't a believer that humans are God. I believe that God can work with humans or work through humans, but not the other way around. Of course, I didn't know any better at the time so I thought Christianity was was a bad religion. It took probably 10 years before I really took another look at the Bible and that's when I realized that what the Trinitarian church was teaching me doesn't actually match Scripture. Hey, turns out Jesus was a man who God worked through after all. I as right all along, I just had a blind group trying to lead me. (Acts 2:22, Acts 2:36)

Perhaps I just needed a long break to detox and reset from the propaganda before taking a look at the Bible with a fresh set of eyes and with God as my guide. Finally understanding who God and Jesus are has been the most spiritually satisfying, rewarding, and fulfilling experience I have had. Yes I get my prayers answered, too, and have been blessed and spiritually gifted for my trust in God and Jesus.

 

[civic]

No, but the argument has been that Jesus never said he was God, in the bible.

I provided 2 examples and asked what they meant.

The reason Jesus was born and given what he was to do while here is all true with what has been said.

But the fact is.... there is proof to me that Jesus and God the Father (ignoreing the Holy Spirit right now) are God.

Jesus said I am the Father are one.

Jesus said “Very truly I tell you, . . . before Abraham was born, I am!” (which The Jews, upon hearing Him, clearly understood that He was claiming preexistence and, more than that, to be Yahweh, the great “I AM” of Exodus 3:14.)

So He claimed it referencing these two parts of the bible... The Old and New testaments.

People do not deny the fact that Jesus was. Or that He came and did.
But they do deny He was/is God... and one argument is that they claim He never said it .

I want those who say he isn't/wasn't to explain these two.... verses.... and then explain if He lied... how could He be our savior.

Bleassings

good luck with that but there is a slight chance they will respond with their view on those passages.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

If you don't mind, could you briefly list out what those arguments are, with supporting Bible verses? Please limit the list to your 3 best arguments and permit us to critique them.

Hi Synergy

Trying to be as succinct as possible, I would say

1. The Bible overwhelmingly presents God as one person (one independent mind). The supporting verse may be more than 1000 and I think I won't quote them, but can choose some as examples if requested.
2. The Father and Jesus are two different persons (two independent minds). Since there is no debate here among us, I won't present the supporting verse, unless requested.
3. When Jesus mentions Himself and "The Father" in the same sentence, or when the authors of the NT present "Jesus Christ" and "The Father" in the same sentence, and the title "God" in used that sentence, they assign it exclusively to the Father. There are no verses in which both are named "God", and no verse in which the title is given exclusively to Jesus. I will present the supporting verses in another post.

 

[Peterlag]

I would also add, you are dealing with your faith from an entirely Scriptural perspective. You like objectivity, facts, concrete statements about what you believe taken directly from the Bible. I agree with that approach which is probably why we tend to agree so much on this particular point. I assume we probably agree about many things as well.

However, Trinitarianism revolves more around tradition, creeds, post-biblical support, extra-biblical material, and feelings rather than actual Scripture. That's why we can't reach them using the Bible 99% of the time. They don't use the Bible for the foundation of the Trinity since the Trinity isn't found in Scripture. So this is a matter of belief meets the authoritative word of God. May as well be trying to convert a Muslim to Christianity using the Bible. If you can't get a Trin to believe the Scripture's regarding who God and Jesus are, it most likely will not work on a Muslim.

Now, I went to a Trinitarian church many a year ago. Actually, I didn't believe it. I wanted to believe it because I was a believer in God, but I wasn't a believer that humans are God. I believe that God can work with humans or work through humans, but not the other way around. Of course, I didn't know any better at the time so I thought Christianity was was a bad religion. It took probably 10 years before I really took another look at the Bible and that's when I realized that what the Trinitarian church was teaching me doesn't actually match Scripture. Hey, turns out Jesus was a man who God worked through after all. I as right all along, I just had a blind group trying to lead me. (Acts 2:22, Acts 2:36)

Perhaps I just needed a long break to detox and reset from the propaganda before taking a look at the Bible with a fresh set of eyes and with God as my guide. Finally understanding who God and Jesus are has been the most spiritually satisfying, rewarding, and fulfilling experience I have had. Yes I get my prayers answered, too, and have been blessed and spiritually gifted for my trust in God and Jesus.

Nobody has been able to help me with a question I have and so I would like to ask you if you might be able to cause me to understand. If you believe there's a trinity and therefore you don't know who God is. And you don't know who Jesus is. And you don't have a clue how to walk and live in the spirit. Then what is the lifestyle that they call Christian?