I'm sorry. I tend to speak of divinity of Christ in the Godhead so that people do not weasel out of the essential meaning.
Jesus denied being God
- Thread starter Runningman
- Start date
MTMattie
Well-known member
Ok We agree. It is obviously three we see here
Runningman
Well-known member
You're most likely using theological definitions to explain something that only works in your religion. In the Bible, the divinity we can have doesn't make us God.
Sure. I do not prefer to follow non-Christ-centered religions such as Buddhism, Muslim, Hinduism, nor to what? Mormonism -- where you are becoming another god?
Peterlag
Well-known member
None of your Bible verses teach that Jesus is God unless you twist them into saying something that they are not saying. This is done by the trinity folks mostly by not understanding what is written or not understanding how the word was used in the culture it was written in or by bad translations. Logos for example has a good 30 different ways it's translated in the New Testament and according to the trinity folks they say it's only translated one way.
Peterlag
Well-known member
Only trinity people use this language... mortal man or a mere man. I do not use or understand any such language referring to Jesus. He is God's son, the Messiah to Israel, and made to be both Lord and Christ by God. That my friend is no mortal man.
That is just bald denial
You have not rebuted that
You denied the deity of the word by claiming he was impersonal, but you never could deal with Phil 2:5ff showing otherwise
You weakly tried to separate lord and God in Thomas' confession to Jesus
You never ever dealt with Granville sharps rule of grammar uniting God and savior as one person in Tit 2:13 2Pe 1:1
You did nothing at all with the Angel of the lord who is shown to be both God and Jehovah
You did nothing with the various titles and characteristics which are properly applied only to God and yet shared by Christ
Nothing at all with the many statements that no man has seen the Father but that he was revealed by Christ
etc
So I repeat your claim is quite deluded
Peterlag
Well-known member
There is not a verse in the New Testament that I can't deal with. What do you want to know about Philippians 2:5.
More deluded claims
Phil 2:5 shows the pre-incarnate Jesus was personal
You could not deal with it
Peterlag
Well-known member
You say I could not deal with it because I don't agree with you. This is how you twist and spin.
Fact: you failed to show how the passage was consistent with an impersonal thing
No, I say that because you did not deal with it
MTMattie
Well-known member
What does this mean???????????????????/
John 10:30, Jesus said, "I and the Father are one.".
What does this mean??????????????????/
Jesus made another statement claiming to be God when He said, “Very truly I tell you, . . . before Abraham was born, I am!” (John 8:58). The Jews, upon hearing Him, clearly understood that He was claiming preexistence and, more than that, to be Yahweh, the great “I AM” of Exodus 3:14.
Always remember: If He were a mere man, His death would have been only sufficient to pay for His own sins, but because He was God in the flesh, His sacrifice was infinite and holy and able to pay for all the sins of the world.
MTMattie
Well-known member
@Peterlag
A little history for you to start off your Sunday morning..... Starting at the beginning of the written word.
I bolded and emphasized some with color, so YOU wont miss them.
en.wikipedia.org
The Old Testament has been interpreted as referring to the Trinity in many places. For example, in the Genesis creation narrative, specifically the first-person plural pronouns in Genesis 1:26–27 and Genesis 3:22 ('Let us make man in our image [...] the man is become as one of us').
( IF you have a translation or more that does not have this worded the same.... post it... OTHERWISE EXPLAIN "like one of us.")
(The drop down list here at Bible hub has them all.... https://biblehub.com/genesis/3-22.htm
add to that the Peshitta, 22And LORD JEHOVAH God said, “Behold, Adam has become as one of us, to know good and evil; now, lest he reach his hand and he will take also from the tree of life and he will eat and will live to eternity.”
Complete Jewish Bible 22ADONAI, God, said, "See, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil. Now, to prevent his putting out his hand and taking also from the tree of life, eating, and living forever -"
Septuagint LVV 22(3:23) And God said, Behold, Adam is become as one of us, to know good and evil, and now lest at any time he stretch forth his hand, and take of the tree of life and eat, and so he shall live forever -
A traditional Christian interpretation of these pronouns is that they refer to a plurality of persons within the Godhead. Biblical commentator Victor P. Hamilton outlines several interpretations, including the most widely held among Biblical scholars, which is that the pronouns do not refer to other persons within the Godhead but to the 'heavenly court' of Isaiah 6. Theologians Meredith Kline[15] and Gerhard von Rad argue for this view, as von Rad says, 'The extraordinary plural ("Let us") is to prevent one from referring God's image too directly to God the Lord. God includes himself among the heavenly beings of his court and thereby conceals himself in this majority.'[16] Hamilton notes that this interpretation assumes that Genesis 1 is at variance with Isaiah 40:13–14, Who has measured the Spirit of the Lord, or what man shows him his counsel? Whom did he consult, and who made him understand? Who taught him the path of justice, and taught him knowledge, and showed him the way of understanding? That is, if the plural pronouns of Genesis 1 teach that God consults and creates with a 'heavenly court', then it contradicts the statement in Isaiah that God seeks the council of nobody. According to Hamilton, the best interpretation 'approaches the trinitarian understanding but employs less direct terminology'.[17]: 133 Following D. J. A. Clines, he states that the plural reveals a 'duality within the Godhead' that recalls the 'Spirit of God' mentioned in verse 2, And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. Hamilton also says that it is unreasonable to assume that the author of Genesis was too theologically primitive to deal with such a concept as 'plurality within unity';[17]: 134 Hamilton thus argues for a framework of progressive revelation, in which the doctrine of the Trinity is revealed at first obscurely then plainly in the New Testament.
Another of these places is the prophecy about the Messiah in Isaiah 9. The Messiah is called "Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." Some Christians see this verse as meaning the Messiah will represent the Trinity on earth. This is because Counselor is a title for the Holy Spirit (John 14:26), the Trinity is God, Father is a title for God the Father, and Prince of Peace is a title for Jesus. This verse is also used to support the Deity of Christ.[18]
Another verse used to support the Deity of Christ is[19]
Some also argue
People also see the Trinity when the Old Testament refers to God's word (Psalm 33:6), His Spirit (Isaiah 61:1), and Wisdom (Proverbs 9:1), as well as narratives such as the appearance of the three men to Abraham.[21] However, it is generally agreed among Trinitarian Christian scholars that it would go beyond the intention and spirit of the Old Testament to correlate these notions directly with later Trinitarian doctrine.[22]
Some Church Fathers believed that a knowledge of the mystery was granted to the prophets and saints of the Old Testament, and that they identified the divine messenger of Genesis 16:7, Genesis 21:17, Genesis 31:11, Exodus 3:2 and Wisdom of the sapiential books with the Son, and "the spirit of the Lord" with the Holy Spirit.[22]
Other Church Fathers, such as Gregory Nazianzen, argued in his Orations that the revelation was gradual, claiming that the Father was proclaimed in the Old Testament openly, but the Son only obscurely, because "it was not safe, when the Godhead of the Father was not yet acknowledged, plainly to proclaim the Son".[23]
Genesis 18–19 has been interpreted by Christians as a Trinitarian text. The narrative has the Lord appearing to Abraham, who was visited by three men.[24] In Genesis 19, "the two angels" visited Lot at Sodom.[25] The interplay between Abraham on the one hand and the Lord/three men/the two angels on the other was an intriguing text for those who believed in a single God in three persons. Justin Martyr, and John Calvin similarly, interpreted it such that Abraham was visited by God, who was accompanied by two angels.[26] Justin supposed that the God who visited Abraham was distinguishable from the God who remains in the heavens, but was nevertheless identified as the (monotheistic) God. Justin interpreted the God who visited Abraham as Jesus, the second person of the Trinity.[citation needed]
Augustine, in contrast, held that the three visitors to Abraham were the three persons of the Trinity.[26] He saw no indication that the visitors were unequal, as would be the case in Justin's reading. Then in Genesis 19, two of the visitors were addressed by Lot in the singular: "Lot said to them, 'Not so, my lord'" (Gen. 19:18).[26] Augustine saw that Lot could address them as one because they had a single substance, despite the plurality of persons.[a]
Christians interpret the theophanies, or appearances of the Angel of the Lord, as revelations of a person distinct from God, who is nonetheless called God. This interpretation is found in Christianity as early as Justin Martyr and Melito of Sardis, and reflects ideas that were already present in Philo.[27] The Old Testament theophanies were thus seen as Christophanies, each a "preincarnate appearance of the Messiah".[28]
A little history for you to start off your Sunday morning..... Starting at the beginning of the written word.
I bolded and emphasized some with color, so YOU wont miss them.
Trinity - Wikipedia
Old Testament
[edit]The Old Testament has been interpreted as referring to the Trinity in many places. For example, in the Genesis creation narrative, specifically the first-person plural pronouns in Genesis 1:26–27 and Genesis 3:22 ('Let us make man in our image [...] the man is become as one of us').
( IF you have a translation or more that does not have this worded the same.... post it... OTHERWISE EXPLAIN "like one of us.")
(The drop down list here at Bible hub has them all.... https://biblehub.com/genesis/3-22.htm
add to that the Peshitta, 22And LORD JEHOVAH God said, “Behold, Adam has become as one of us, to know good and evil; now, lest he reach his hand and he will take also from the tree of life and he will eat and will live to eternity.”
Complete Jewish Bible 22ADONAI, God, said, "See, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil. Now, to prevent his putting out his hand and taking also from the tree of life, eating, and living forever -"
Septuagint LVV 22(3:23) And God said, Behold, Adam is become as one of us, to know good and evil, and now lest at any time he stretch forth his hand, and take of the tree of life and eat, and so he shall live forever -
A traditional Christian interpretation of these pronouns is that they refer to a plurality of persons within the Godhead. Biblical commentator Victor P. Hamilton outlines several interpretations, including the most widely held among Biblical scholars, which is that the pronouns do not refer to other persons within the Godhead but to the 'heavenly court' of Isaiah 6. Theologians Meredith Kline[15] and Gerhard von Rad argue for this view, as von Rad says, 'The extraordinary plural ("Let us") is to prevent one from referring God's image too directly to God the Lord. God includes himself among the heavenly beings of his court and thereby conceals himself in this majority.'[16] Hamilton notes that this interpretation assumes that Genesis 1 is at variance with Isaiah 40:13–14, Who has measured the Spirit of the Lord, or what man shows him his counsel? Whom did he consult, and who made him understand? Who taught him the path of justice, and taught him knowledge, and showed him the way of understanding? That is, if the plural pronouns of Genesis 1 teach that God consults and creates with a 'heavenly court', then it contradicts the statement in Isaiah that God seeks the council of nobody. According to Hamilton, the best interpretation 'approaches the trinitarian understanding but employs less direct terminology'.[17]: 133 Following D. J. A. Clines, he states that the plural reveals a 'duality within the Godhead' that recalls the 'Spirit of God' mentioned in verse 2, And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. Hamilton also says that it is unreasonable to assume that the author of Genesis was too theologically primitive to deal with such a concept as 'plurality within unity';[17]: 134 Hamilton thus argues for a framework of progressive revelation, in which the doctrine of the Trinity is revealed at first obscurely then plainly in the New Testament.
Another of these places is the prophecy about the Messiah in Isaiah 9. The Messiah is called "Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." Some Christians see this verse as meaning the Messiah will represent the Trinity on earth. This is because Counselor is a title for the Holy Spirit (John 14:26), the Trinity is God, Father is a title for God the Father, and Prince of Peace is a title for Jesus. This verse is also used to support the Deity of Christ.[18]
Another verse used to support the Deity of Christ is[19]
This is because both the Ancient of Days (God the Father) and the Son of Man (Jesus, Matt 16:13) have an everlasting dominion, which is ascribed to God in Psalm 145:13.[20]
Some also argue
to be Trinitarian in apparently distinguishing between the Lord in heaven and the Lord on earth.[citation needed]
People also see the Trinity when the Old Testament refers to God's word (Psalm 33:6), His Spirit (Isaiah 61:1), and Wisdom (Proverbs 9:1), as well as narratives such as the appearance of the three men to Abraham.[21] However, it is generally agreed among Trinitarian Christian scholars that it would go beyond the intention and spirit of the Old Testament to correlate these notions directly with later Trinitarian doctrine.[22]
Some Church Fathers believed that a knowledge of the mystery was granted to the prophets and saints of the Old Testament, and that they identified the divine messenger of Genesis 16:7, Genesis 21:17, Genesis 31:11, Exodus 3:2 and Wisdom of the sapiential books with the Son, and "the spirit of the Lord" with the Holy Spirit.[22]
Other Church Fathers, such as Gregory Nazianzen, argued in his Orations that the revelation was gradual, claiming that the Father was proclaimed in the Old Testament openly, but the Son only obscurely, because "it was not safe, when the Godhead of the Father was not yet acknowledged, plainly to proclaim the Son".[23]
Genesis 18–19 has been interpreted by Christians as a Trinitarian text. The narrative has the Lord appearing to Abraham, who was visited by three men.[24] In Genesis 19, "the two angels" visited Lot at Sodom.[25] The interplay between Abraham on the one hand and the Lord/three men/the two angels on the other was an intriguing text for those who believed in a single God in three persons. Justin Martyr, and John Calvin similarly, interpreted it such that Abraham was visited by God, who was accompanied by two angels.[26] Justin supposed that the God who visited Abraham was distinguishable from the God who remains in the heavens, but was nevertheless identified as the (monotheistic) God. Justin interpreted the God who visited Abraham as Jesus, the second person of the Trinity.[citation needed]
Augustine, in contrast, held that the three visitors to Abraham were the three persons of the Trinity.[26] He saw no indication that the visitors were unequal, as would be the case in Justin's reading. Then in Genesis 19, two of the visitors were addressed by Lot in the singular: "Lot said to them, 'Not so, my lord'" (Gen. 19:18).[26] Augustine saw that Lot could address them as one because they had a single substance, despite the plurality of persons.[a]
Christians interpret the theophanies, or appearances of the Angel of the Lord, as revelations of a person distinct from God, who is nonetheless called God. This interpretation is found in Christianity as early as Justin Martyr and Melito of Sardis, and reflects ideas that were already present in Philo.[27] The Old Testament theophanies were thus seen as Christophanies, each a "preincarnate appearance of the Messiah".[28]
I have not sided with Pancho Frijoles, in that I will turn away from God's teaching from the Bible, and HIS Son that HE gave me to for cleansing, to convert to Islam or Bahi's, any more than I would abandon the teaching of this same God through this same Christ to convert to Catholicism or Calvinism, or Arminianism, or any of this world's religious sects and businesses. And more importantly, Pancho is not asking or even expecting me too. But I do have a lot in common with Pancho, in that I have based my understanding of God by my own study of Scriptures, not by adopting popular religious doctrines or interpretations of Scripture promoted by one religious sect and rejected by another, although I know some doctrines still linger within me, and I wait for God to reveal them to me. My goal is to "Press towards the mark" of knowing the One True God "AND" Jesus Christ who this God has sent to save me. To become the man God wants me to be. My goal is not to know Catholicism or Calvinism, or Arminianism, or Islam, or any of the philosophies of any of this world's religious sects and businesses. I am "Seeking the Kingdom of God and HIS Righteousness", as my Lord, that this same God gave me to, instructs.
I will end by posting a warning of the Jesus "of the Bible" concerning the greatest danger HE told His Disciples about for the future.
Matt. 24: 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man "deceive you". 5 For many shall come "in my name", saying, "I" (Jesus) am Christ; and "shall deceive many".
Jesus could have warned about many things here. He could have warned about Islam, Buddhism or Baha'i, or even Atheists, but HE didn't. The Biblical fact is HE warned about one religion in this world, a religion who "Comes in Christ's Name" who teaches that Jesus is the Prophesied Messiah. And Paul warned of the same thing.
Titus 1: 16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
And again;
2 Cor. 11: 12 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we. 13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the "apostles of Christ".
Pancho has shown more respect for the Written Word of God than many on this forum. And has displayed kindness and love to those who disagree with him, seldom seen in the debates on this forum. To my shame.
Perhaps, if men who professed to know God, had submitted to His Son and been "Doers" of His Sayings and not a hearer only, there would already be a united people under God and no reason for Poncho to adopt Baha'is philosophies.
Luke 9: 49 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.
50 "And Jesus said" unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us "is for us".
Jesus also said His Father Sent Him to give me the Words His father gave Him to give to me. Jesus brought the Love of God to show to me how to love others. He was sent to "do the Will of His Father", not his own, as He Himself said. He walked in God's Righteousness, not His own. He promoted the Wisdom of God, and exhibited power HE said was given to Him by His God and my God.
He is said to me the mediator between His God and me. He was perfect, even as His Father in heaven is perfect. Truly He and His Father are one, just as Paul and Jesus were one, just as husband and wife are to be one.
John 17: 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe "that thou hast sent me". 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
This doesn't mean that we all will become the One True God does it?
MTMattie
Well-known member
No, but the argument has been that Jesus never said he was God, in the bible.
I provided 2 examples and asked what they meant.
The reason Jesus was born and given what he was to do while here is all true with what has been said.
But the fact is.... there is proof to me that Jesus and God the Father (ignoreing the Holy Spirit right now) are God.
Jesus said I am the Father are one.
Jesus said “Very truly I tell you, . . . before Abraham was born, I am!” (which The Jews, upon hearing Him, clearly understood that He was claiming preexistence and, more than that, to be Yahweh, the great “I AM” of Exodus 3:14.)
So He claimed it referencing these two parts of the bible... The Old and New testaments.
People do not deny the fact that Jesus was. Or that He came and did.
But they do deny He was/is God... and one argument is that they claim He never said it .
I want those who say he isn't/wasn't to explain these two.... verses.... and then explain if He lied... how could He be our savior.
Bleassings
MTMattie
Well-known member
Not anymore then when you and your wife married you became one flesh... yet when one of you dies the other continue to live.
"For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh."
We will not become the one true God unless your are Shirley MacLaine.
But the Godhead will see you have an eternity you can only dream about.
You can be strengthened against the deceivers if you start learning from the people that are correcting your errors in perception of scripture. That is why you are not on an island being blocked from communicating with others.
You neglect scripture to come to your view. You take the low hanging fruit that is starting to rot instead of going deeper into scripture to comprehend the nuances. You think God is so shallow that you can simply understand everything about the Godhead with a superficial reading of scriptures.
Proverbs 25:2, which states, "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter"
Last edited:
