Jesus denied being God

[Runningman]

When someone like Peterlag or Runningman speak of the Trinitarians as saying that Jesus could not be a second God, they sound like they have not even opened up the Bible for more than a few proof texts.

Orthodox Trinitarians don't believe Jesus is a second God. Are you of the polytheistic variety? I have a couple I believe.

 

[mikesw]

I understand what the Trinity is, but you're speaking of it like you have some sort of claim to authority. It's not in Scripture so I won't enable you by allowing you to speak of it as if it's the Christian norm. Christians believe what Jesus and his apostles believed concerning the church and God. None of them taught anything about a Trinity God.

That is pretty ignorant of history. We only have indications of their observations about the deity of Christ and the Spirit. They did not have to discuss the way these attributes worked together because there likely were not divergent concepts of Christ's deity at that time. It was only later that people did not have the apostles available to give their direct insights.

 

[mikesw]

Orthodox Trinitarians don't believe Jesus is a second God. Are you of the polytheistic variety? I have a couple I believe.

Wow. At least you have a concept of the Trinity that is correct.

 

[mikesw]

Why would I be mad? Are you saying that your words could potentially made someone mad? It's not a good translation. Jesus isn't equal to God in Scripture. He said so himself so you need to take it up with Jesus.

Jesus did not consider equality with God something to be grasped. Not the other way around. This is something obtainable for the church of Philippi which is what Paul's subject it. This entire passage is in reference to what the church of Philippi should be thinking about themselves.

Philippians 2
5Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus:
6Who, existing in the form of God,
did not consider equality with God
something to be grasped,
7but emptied Himself,
taking the form of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
He humbled Himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross.

Sure in your view I must be equal to God so I too must humble myself now.

 

[Runningman]

Did you even read the text?

Philippians 2:5–6 (NASB 2020) — 5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, as He already existed in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,

This translation is better:

Philippians 2 (BSB)
5Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus:
6Who, existing in the form of God,
did not consider equality with God
something to be grasped,
Obviously your version suffers from the weakness that the church of Philippi could not have it in their mind that they are equal to God. So why would Paul say "Have the mind that Jesus had" and then immediately describe the mind of Jesus as something they can't have?

This has got to be the boldest form of bald denial I have ever seen

Same to you.

There goes your confusion again. The person of the son is not the person of the Father

Of course the Son is not the Father.

And it not my version but all versions

Not the one I quoted about.

There you go diverting

The issue is Christs pre-existance

Why are you avoiding the point?

You have a major problem which you have previously failed to address

Philippians 2:4–7 (KJV 1900) — 4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others. 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

You said he pre-existed as God. I am not diverting. You are in the hot seat for making a claim that is not in Scripture. Where do you see anything about pre-existing as God?

before he took upon himself the form of a man he existed in the form of God

"being in the form of God" is in the present tense man.

addition before becoming flesh

Not stated in the text.

He was with God and created all things

John 1:1–3 (KJV 1900) — 1 IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Verse 2 ends with the God the Word was with. Therefore the "without Him was not anything made that was made" refers to the God the Word was with. Therefore the Word didn't create.

And he had glory with god before the world began

John 17:5 (KJV 1900) — 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Try as you may, it is not possible to remove his pre-existance from the words of scripture

Didn't literally pre-exist. Case in point, the Lamb was not slain two times. Just one time after his birth in Israel. His death and crucifixion was his glory.

Revelation 13
8All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.

Again you deny scripture

John 1:1–3 (NASB 2020) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.

The word is he who was in the beginning he who was with God

The pronoun he refers to the Word who became flesh who is identified as Jesus Christ

Verse 2 ends with the God the Word was with. Therefore the "without Him was not anything made that was made" refers to the God the Word was with. Therefore the Word didn't create.

Don't forget about the scripture you deny in 1 John 1:1-2 that refers to the Word as a thing. John 1's bit about the Word is personification.

still more scripture you must deny

Colossians 1:13–16 (KJV 1900) — 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Colossians 1:15 says clearly shows Jesus isn't God since the invisible God is the only God according to 1 Timothy 1:17. Verse 16 proves Jesus isn't the Creator. It says "through" him God created and the context is the church again.

and even more

Ephesians 3:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

all you have offered is a denial of scripture and avoidance of the point

So Jesus isn't the Creator. It says God is the creator. Can you see that?

 

[Runningman]

That is pretty ignorant of history. We only have indications of their observations about the deity of Christ and the Spirit. They did not have to discuss the way these attributes worked together because there likely were not divergent concepts of Christ's deity at that time. It was only later that people did not have the apostles available to give their direct insights.

Um, I have the Bible on my side as far as history goes. Are you ignorant of history? Do you know that after the initial beginning of the church, that many sects arose? The gnostics, the trinitarians, it's been endless ever since. Your sect rose to prominence because they got lucky then started jailing and slaughtering everyone who got in their way. Not very godly is it.

 

[Runningman]

Sure in your view I must be equal to God so I too must humble myself now.

You aren't equal to God and neither was Jesus according to him.

John 14
28You heard Me say, ‘I am going away, and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved Me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father, because the Father is greater than I.

 

[mikesw]

Um, I have the Bible on my side as far as history goes. Are you ignorant of history? Do you know that after the initial beginning of the church, that many sects arose? The gnostics, the trinitarians, it's been endless ever since. Your sect rose to prominence because they got lucky then started jailing and slaughtering everyone who got in their way. Not very godly is it.

Wow. because there was violence as reflective of human nature, you find an argument against the deity of Christ. I shall remember the type of logic you rely on.

 

[mikesw]

You aren't equal to God and neither was Jesus according to him.

John 14
28You heard Me say, ‘I am going away, and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved Me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father, because the Father is greater than I.

oh. you find more words of Jesus in his limited ministry as a prophet among the Jews. You will have to learn the nuances from people equipped to share that with you.

 

[Runningman]

oh. you find more words of Jesus in his limited ministry as a prophet among the Jews. You will have to learn the nuances from people equipped to share that with you.

I don't believe you're prepared to take on the challenge of making Jesus equal to God. There's a lot more scripture than just one verse. It's a major Biblical doctrine through the entire Old and New Testament.

 

[TomL]

This translation is better:

Philippians 2 (BSB)
5Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus:
6Who, existing in the form of God,
did not consider equality with God
something to be grasped,
Obviously your version suffers from the weakness that the church of Philippi could not have it in their mind that they are equal to God. So why would Paul say "Have the mind that Jesus had" and then immediately describe the mind of Jesus as something they can't have?

There you go diverting again

The point you are ignoring

The reference to the lord Jesus

Romans 10:6–13 (LEB) — 6 But the righteousness from faith speaks like this: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or “Who will descend into the abyss?” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near to you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim), 9 that if you confess with your mouth “Jesus is Lord” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord is Lord of all, who is rich to all who call upon him. 13 For “everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.”

This is the lord identified by name in the passage

Why do you ignore it

Same to you.

The passage speaks for itself

Romans 10:6–13 (LEB) — 6 But the righteousness from faith speaks like this: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or “Who will descend into the abyss?” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near to you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim), 9 that if you confess with your mouth “Jesus is Lord” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord is Lord of all, who is rich to all who call upon him. 13 For “everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.”

There you go diverting

The issue is Christs pre-existance

Why are you avoiding the point?

You have a major problem which you have previously failed to address

Philippians 2:4–7 (KJV 1900) — 4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others. 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Of course the Son is not the Father.

And neither the text or myself state any such thing

Not the one I quoted about.


You said he pre-existed as God. I am not diverting. You are in the hot seat for making a claim that is not in Scripture. Where do you see anything about pre-existing as God?

I noted

Philippians 2:4–7 (KJV 1900) — 4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others. 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

he existed in the form of God

"being in the form of God" is in the present tense man.

And it is addressing something previous to his becoming flesh

Hello

so it is something past to it as this translation shows

Philippians 2:6–7 (NASB 2020) — 6 who, as He already existed in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself by taking the form of a bond-servant and being born in the likeness of men.

Not stated in the text.

Becoming a man is not existing in the form of god

hello

think

and it is a noted change

Verse 2 ends with the God the Word was with. Therefore the "without Him was not anything made that was made" refers to the God the Word was with. Therefore the Word didn't create.

Sorry the pronoun him is used to denote the word. The word is the subject (the same)

John 1:2–5 (KJV 1900) — 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

creation confirmed here

Colossians 1:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Ephesians 3:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Read the context The word who became flesh is clearly the subject

Didn't literally pre-exist. Case in point, the Lamb was not slain two times. Just one time after his birth in Israel. His death and crucifixion was his glory.

There you go again denying scripture

And he had glory with god before the world began

John 17:5 (KJV 1900) — 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Try as you may, it is not possible to remove his pre-existance from the words of scripture

Why do you run to a figurative passage to deny plainly stated multiple passages?

your reading and exegetical understanding have been horrible

Rev is speaking of the plan of God and it is not addressing the verses quoted

It has nothing to do with those verses

You have demonstrated really poor handling of scripture

 

[Runningman]

There you go diverting again

The point you are ignoring

The reference to the lord Jesus

Romans 10:6–13 (LEB) — 6 But the righteousness from faith speaks like this: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or “Who will descend into the abyss?” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near to you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim), 9 that if you confess with your mouth “Jesus is Lord” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord is Lord of all, who is rich to all who call upon him. 13 For “everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.”

This is the lord identified by name in the passage

Why do you ignore it


The passage speaks for itself

Romans 10:6–13 (LEB) — 6 But the righteousness from faith speaks like this: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or “Who will descend into the abyss?” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near to you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim), 9 that if you confess with your mouth “Jesus is Lord” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord is Lord of all, who is rich to all who call upon him. 13 For “everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.”

There you go diverting

The issue is Christs pre-existance

Why are you avoiding the point?

Love this passage. It proves that Jesus isn't the one being called God. You lack Biblical context of how Jesus fits into the Bible and seem to view talking about other passages in Scripture as a diversion. Yet, when you generously afforded yourself unlimited grace to utilize the Bible to your advantage. The look is you are being a bit desperate to portray your debate opponents as doing something wrong. I would recommend you avoid that or it'll keep backfiring on you.

So, yes, while Jesus is indeed our Lord, he isn't the Lord God. You're mixing and matching contexts when they don't apply. I believe you are already being shown the truth in a different thread right now so no need to do another thread for you.

You have a major problem which you have previously failed to address

Philippians 2:4–7 (KJV 1900) — 4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others. 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Care to explain why you decided to use a version that ignores the word order of the Greek? The one I provided you follows the word order of the Greek. It says Jesus did not consider equality with God.


Philippians 2 (BSB)
5Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus:
6Who, existing in the form of God,
did not consider equality with God
something to be grasped,

And neither the text or myself state any such thing

I noted

Philippians 2:4–7 (KJV 1900) — 4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others. 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

he existed in the form of God

Deal with the fact that the word form means outward appearance. God doesn't have an outward appearance therefore Jesus isn't God.

And it is addressing something previous to his becoming flesh

Hello

so it is something past to it as this translation shows

Philippians 2:6–7 (NASB 2020) — 6 who, as He already existed in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself by taking the form of a bond-servant and being born in the likeness of men.

You were also born in the likeness of men. You are projecting a bias into the text in which you imagine there was a pre-existence before his birth. It's not stated or implied in the text.

Becoming a man is not existing in the form of god

hello

think

and it is a noted change

What is the form of God in your opinion?

Sorry the pronoun him is used to denote the word. The word is the subject (the same)

John 1:2–5 (KJV 1900) — 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Do you agree that under the rules of conventional english grammar that the pronoun refers to the closest noun? If yes, then the "Him" in verse three refers to the previously mentioned God. That wouldn't be the Word then. Therefore, technically, it says the Word isn't the Creator. You can argue if you like, but you are at a distinct disadvantage on this passage.

creation confirmed here

Colossians 1:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Ephesians 3:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Read the context The word who became flesh is clearly the subject

Then following your logic, the Word is not the creator in John 1:2-3. Therefore you have a contradiction in your theology. Seeing it yet?

There you go again denying scripture

And he had glory with god before the world began

John 17:5 (KJV 1900) — 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Try as you may, it is not possible to remove his pre-existance from the words of scripture

Why do you run to a figurative passage to deny plainly stated multiple passages?

your reading and exegetical understanding have been horrible

Rev is speaking of the plan of God and it is not addressing the verses quoted

It has nothing to do with those verses

You have demonstrated really poor handling of scripture

Jesus glory was his death and crucifixion according to Scripture. So the glory Jesus was referring to before the world existed was with God in a prophetic sense, not a literal sense. Revelation and Hebrews prove such since he wasn't actually crucified before the world was, therefore he received his glory at the cross.

Hebrews 2
9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because He suffered death, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.

Revelation 13
8All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.

 

[TomL]

Love this passage. It proves that Jesus isn't the one being called God. You lack Biblical context of how Jesus fits into the Bible and seem to view talking about other passages in Scripture as a diversion. Yet, when you generously afforded yourself unlimited grace to utilize the Bible to your advantage. The look is you are being a bit desperate to portray your debate opponents as doing something wrong. I would recommend you avoid that or it'll keep backfiring on you.

That is really funny

All you have been able to do is deny and run from what New Testament scripture shows

viz

There you go diverting again

The point you are ignoring

The reference to the lord Jesus

Romans 10:6–13 (LEB) — 6 But the righteousness from faith speaks like this: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or “Who will descend into the abyss?” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near to you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim), 9 that if you confess with your mouth “Jesus is Lord” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord is Lord of all, who is rich to all who call upon him. 13 For “everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.”

This is the lord identified by name in the passage

Why do you ignore it


The passage speaks for itself

Romans 10:6–13 (LEB) — 6 But the righteousness from faith speaks like this: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or “Who will descend into the abyss?” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near to you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim), 9 that if you confess with your mouth “Jesus is Lord” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord is Lord of all, who is rich to all who call upon him. 13 For “everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.”

There you go diverting

The issue is Christs pre-existance

Why are you avoiding the point?

R

So, yes, while Jesus is indeed our Lord, he isn't the Lord God. You're mixing and matching contexts when they don't apply. I believe you are already being shown the truth in a different thread right now so no need to do another thread for you.

The issue you ignored is he is Lord one is to call on for salvation

You are avoiding the point

Care to explain why you decided to use a version that ignores the word order of the Greek? The one I provided you follows the word order of the Greek. It says Jesus did not consider equality with God.

The word order is not the issue

It is the pre-existence of Christ

Before he became flesh he was in the form of God

PS the fact God has no outward appearence only serves to show he was like God in some other manner

You do not get to throw the verse away

But again his existence before becoming flesh is the point

When will you deal with it?

Philippians 2 (BSB)
5Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus:
6Who, existing in the form of God,
did not consider equality with God
something to be grasped,


Deal with the fact that the word form means outward appearance. God doesn't have an outward appearance therefore Jesus isn't God.

Already did

but here is more



μορφή -ῆς, ἡ; (morphē), n. form. Hebrew equivalent: תְּמוּנָה (1).
Noun Usage
1. form (essence)† — the expression of something (such as a visual, spatial, or preternatural expression) that reflects or manifests fully and truly (and permanently) the essence of what something is. Related Topics: Nature; Form.
Php 2:6 ἐν μορφῇ θεοῦ
Php 2:7 ἐκένωσεν μορφὴν δούλου
2. form (manifestation)† — a particular mode in which something is existing. Related Topic: Form.
Rick Brannan, ed., Lexham Research Lexicon of the Greek New Testament (Lexham Research Lexicons; Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2020).

But again let's get back to the issue you have been avoiding

Before becoming flesh and taking the form of a servant

He existed in the form of God

this is existence is previous to his becoming a man

You were also born in the likeness of men. You are projecting a bias into the text in which you imagine there was a pre-existence before his birth. It's not stated or implied in the text.

UM I did not exist in the form of God Jesus did

your argument is absurd

What is the form of God in your opinion?


Do you agree that under the rules of conventional english grammar that the pronoun refers to the closest noun? If yes, then the "Him" in verse three refers to the previously mentioned God. That wouldn't be the Word then. Therefore, technically, it says the Word isn't the Creator. You can argue if you like, but you are at a distinct disadvantage on this passage.

Not necessarily and in Greek even less. If you knew anything about Greek you would know that. And as for English the word not God is the subject

John 1:1–18 (KJV 1900) — 1 IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. 15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. 16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. 18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

He, him, the same all refer to Jesus

He was in the world who came into the world Jesus or God

the world was made by him

He came to his own

His own received him not - this is Jesus

This is basic reading comprehension, of which you are falling short

Then following your logic, the Word is not the creator in John 1:2-3. Therefore you have a contradiction in your theology. Seeing it yet?

That idea exists only in your mind

Jesus glory was his death and crucifixion according to Scripture. So the glory Jesus was referring to before the world existed was with God in a prophetic sense, not a literal sense. Revelation and Hebrews prove such since he wasn't actually crucified before the world was, therefore he received his glory at the cross.

Um he had glory with the father before the world was

John 17:5 (KJV 1900) — 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Hello that is pre-existence

Your denial of it is plainly anti biblical

Hebrews 2
9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because He suffered death, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.

Simply speaks of the glorification of the man

this still stands

John 17:5 (KJV 1900) — 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Along with the fact he existed in the form of God before becoming man

Your denial is unbiblical

Revelation 13
8All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.

Um you have a lamb who existed before creation

that would be pre-existence

hello

that verse combined with your interpretation refutes your own denial of his pre-existence

hello

 

[MTMattie]

The Bible makes all of the persuasions for me. You can know the Father. That's what I believe. No mention of knowing the Trinity... it will always be a self-contradictory enigma.

Why did the voice from heaven speak when the dove came down and landed on Jesus during his baptism?

Whose voice was it, and who heard it and did the bird speak?

And finally. What was this dove meant to show the people?

 

[civic]

Did you even read the text?

Philippians 2:5–6 (NASB 2020) — 5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, as He already existed in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,

This has got to be the boldest form of bald denial I have ever seen



There goes your confusion again. The person of the son is not the person of the Father

And it not my version but all versions




There you go diverting

The issue is Christs pre-existance

Why are you avoiding the point?

You have a major problem which you have previously failed to address

Philippians 2:4–7 (KJV 1900) — 4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others. 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

before he took upon himself the form of a man he existed in the form of God

addition before becoming flesh

He was with God and created all things

John 1:1–3 (KJV 1900) — 1 IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

And he had glory with god before the world began

John 17:5 (KJV 1900) — 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Try as you may, it is not possible to remove his pre-existance from the words of scripture






Again you deny scripture

John 1:1–3 (NASB 2020) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.

The word is he who was in the beginning he who was with God

The pronoun he refers to the Word who became flesh who is identified as Jesus Christ

still more scripture you must deny

Colossians 1:13–16 (KJV 1900) — 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

and even more

Ephesians 3:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

all you have offered is a denial of scripture and avoidance of the point

Amen brother !!!

 

[Runningman]

Why did the voice from heaven speak when the dove came down and landed on Jesus during his baptism?

Whose voice was it, and who heard it and did the bird speak?

And finally. What was this dove meant to show the people?

I believe, based on the evidence, that the voice from heaven speaking was the Father. I don't believe the bird spoke and that the bird wasn't actually God, since any representation of God using animals is considered idolatry in Scripture.

The dove was symbolic of the empowerment and anointing that Jesus received.

 

[MTMattie]

It is almost frightening to see people who will read a Scripture and totally see something else.

These same people will argue something is not there that they see.

These same people will say that whatever translation one has of the Holy Words, the translation is wrong.

That of all of these... There are over 450 known versions of the Bible in English alone. Additionally, the Bible has been translated into over 7,106 living languages worldwide, with the full Bible translated into 704 languages, the New Testament into 1,551 languages, and parts of the Bible into 1,160 additional languages.... that they are all wrong.

Yet pops up a single re-translation of one that the JW prefer... The NWT... or one of 354 Unitarian Bible Translations 1 (Jerry Wierwille).

So amazing that there are all these people who have disagreed with the Protestant versions, and also each other as who is correct.... but the 354 translations , even with disagreements such as the Protestants do , convince their readers all of them are correct.

JW is especially interesting as John 1 reads
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. 2 This one was in the beginning with God.d 3 All things came into existence through him,e and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.

So the Word to them was A god. who must have hobnobbed with YHWH (vs2) before his coming to earth assignment?

Maybe one of then can confirm that this god who was labeled the only begotten son of the Father was the only one... because when I read "a" god.... that tells me there could have been others ... just not begotten.

On me, oh my.... Wonder if Harry Potter started like this?

 

[TomL]

Amen brother !!!

All he has is denial

 

[Runningman]

It is almost frightening to see people who will read a Scripture and totally see something else.

These same people will argue something is not there that they see.

These same people will say that whatever translation one has of the Holy Words, the translation is wrong.

That of all of these... There are over 450 known versions of the Bible in English alone. Additionally, the Bible has been translated into over 7,106 living languages worldwide, with the full Bible translated into 704 languages, the New Testament into 1,551 languages, and parts of the Bible into 1,160 additional languages.... that they are all wrong.

Yet pops up a single re-translation of one that the JW prefer... The NWT... or one of 354 Unitarian Bible Translations 1 (Jerry Wierwille).

So amazing that there are all these people who have disagreed with the Protestant versions, and also each other as who is correct.... but the 354 translations , even with disagreements such as the Protestants do , convince their readers all of them are correct.

JW is especially interesting as John 1 reads
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. 2 This one was in the beginning with God.d 3 All things came into existence through him,e and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.

So the Word to them was A god. who must have hobnobbed with YHWH (vs2) before his coming to earth assignment?

Maybe one of then can confirm that this god who was labeled the only begotten son of the Father was the only one... because when I read "a" god.... that tells me there could have been others ... just not begotten.

On me, oh my.... Wonder if Harry Potter started like this?

Done with your rant? Now back to the issues. You believe God can be represented by a bird? Please explain how that isn't idolatry if literally meant to be God.

 

[TomL]

Done with your rant? Now back to the issues. You believe God can be represented by a bird? Please explain how that isn't idolatry if literally meant to be God.

Matthew 3:16–17 (KJV 1900) — 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.