Jesus denied being God

[Runningman]

When someone like Peterlag or Runningman speak of the Trinitarians as saying that Jesus could not be a second God, they sound like they have not even opened up the Bible for more than a few proof texts.

Orthodox Trinitarians don't believe Jesus is a second God. Are you of the polytheistic variety? I have a couple I believe.

 

[mikesw]

I understand what the Trinity is, but you're speaking of it like you have some sort of claim to authority. It's not in Scripture so I won't enable you by allowing you to speak of it as if it's the Christian norm. Christians believe what Jesus and his apostles believed concerning the church and God. None of them taught anything about a Trinity God.

That is pretty ignorant of history. We only have indications of their observations about the deity of Christ and the Spirit. They did not have to discuss the way these attributes worked together because there likely were not divergent concepts of Christ's deity at that time. It was only later that people did not have the apostles available to give their direct insights.

 

[mikesw]

Orthodox Trinitarians don't believe Jesus is a second God. Are you of the polytheistic variety? I have a couple I believe.

Wow. At least you have a concept of the Trinity that is correct.

 

[mikesw]

Why would I be mad? Are you saying that your words could potentially made someone mad? It's not a good translation. Jesus isn't equal to God in Scripture. He said so himself so you need to take it up with Jesus.

Jesus did not consider equality with God something to be grasped. Not the other way around. This is something obtainable for the church of Philippi which is what Paul's subject it. This entire passage is in reference to what the church of Philippi should be thinking about themselves.

Philippians 2
5Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus:
6Who, existing in the form of God,
did not consider equality with God
something to be grasped,
7but emptied Himself,
taking the form of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
He humbled Himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross.

Sure in your view I must be equal to God so I too must humble myself now.

 

[Runningman]

Did you even read the text?

Philippians 2:5–6 (NASB 2020) — 5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, as He already existed in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,

This translation is better:

Philippians 2 (BSB)
5Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus:
6Who, existing in the form of God,
did not consider equality with God
something to be grasped,
Obviously your version suffers from the weakness that the church of Philippi could not have it in their mind that they are equal to God. So why would Paul say "Have the mind that Jesus had" and then immediately describe the mind of Jesus as something they can't have?

This has got to be the boldest form of bald denial I have ever seen

Same to you.

There goes your confusion again. The person of the son is not the person of the Father

Of course the Son is not the Father.

And it not my version but all versions

Not the one I quoted about.

There you go diverting

The issue is Christs pre-existance

Why are you avoiding the point?

You have a major problem which you have previously failed to address

Philippians 2:4–7 (KJV 1900) — 4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others. 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

You said he pre-existed as God. I am not diverting. You are in the hot seat for making a claim that is not in Scripture. Where do you see anything about pre-existing as God?

before he took upon himself the form of a man he existed in the form of God

"being in the form of God" is in the present tense man.

addition before becoming flesh

Not stated in the text.

He was with God and created all things

John 1:1–3 (KJV 1900) — 1 IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Verse 2 ends with the God the Word was with. Therefore the "without Him was not anything made that was made" refers to the God the Word was with. Therefore the Word didn't create.

And he had glory with god before the world began

John 17:5 (KJV 1900) — 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Try as you may, it is not possible to remove his pre-existance from the words of scripture

Didn't literally pre-exist. Case in point, the Lamb was not slain two times. Just one time after his birth in Israel. His death and crucifixion was his glory.

Revelation 13
8All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.

Again you deny scripture

John 1:1–3 (NASB 2020) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.

The word is he who was in the beginning he who was with God

The pronoun he refers to the Word who became flesh who is identified as Jesus Christ

Verse 2 ends with the God the Word was with. Therefore the "without Him was not anything made that was made" refers to the God the Word was with. Therefore the Word didn't create.

Don't forget about the scripture you deny in 1 John 1:1-2 that refers to the Word as a thing. John 1's bit about the Word is personification.

still more scripture you must deny

Colossians 1:13–16 (KJV 1900) — 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Colossians 1:15 says clearly shows Jesus isn't God since the invisible God is the only God according to 1 Timothy 1:17. Verse 16 proves Jesus isn't the Creator. It says "through" him God created and the context is the church again.

and even more

Ephesians 3:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

all you have offered is a denial of scripture and avoidance of the point

So Jesus isn't the Creator. It says God is the creator. Can you see that?

 

[Runningman]

That is pretty ignorant of history. We only have indications of their observations about the deity of Christ and the Spirit. They did not have to discuss the way these attributes worked together because there likely were not divergent concepts of Christ's deity at that time. It was only later that people did not have the apostles available to give their direct insights.

Um, I have the Bible on my side as far as history goes. Are you ignorant of history? Do you know that after the initial beginning of the church, that many sects arose? The gnostics, the trinitarians, it's been endless ever since. Your sect rose to prominence because they got lucky then started jailing and slaughtering everyone who got in their way. Not very godly is it.

 

[Runningman]

Sure in your view I must be equal to God so I too must humble myself now.

You aren't equal to God and neither was Jesus according to him.

John 14
28You heard Me say, ‘I am going away, and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved Me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father, because the Father is greater than I.

 

[mikesw]

Um, I have the Bible on my side as far as history goes. Are you ignorant of history? Do you know that after the initial beginning of the church, that many sects arose? The gnostics, the trinitarians, it's been endless ever since. Your sect rose to prominence because they got lucky then started jailing and slaughtering everyone who got in their way. Not very godly is it.

Wow. because there was violence as reflective of human nature, you find an argument against the deity of Christ. I shall remember the type of logic you rely on.

 

[mikesw]

You aren't equal to God and neither was Jesus according to him.

John 14
28You heard Me say, ‘I am going away, and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved Me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father, because the Father is greater than I.

oh. you find more words of Jesus in his limited ministry as a prophet among the Jews. You will have to learn the nuances from people equipped to share that with you.

 

[Runningman]

oh. you find more words of Jesus in his limited ministry as a prophet among the Jews. You will have to learn the nuances from people equipped to share that with you.

I don't believe you're prepared to take on the challenge of making Jesus equal to God. There's a lot more scripture than just one verse. It's a major Biblical doctrine through the entire Old and New Testament.