Jesus denied being God

[Theophilus]

The Word Became Flesh
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
John 1:1–5.

These opening verses here in John declare that Jesus is God, stressing his unique relationship with God the Father. Jesus is God the Son.

 

[Runningman]

Oops. I'm comparing God to the Divine. Weird.
You are talking about an unproven believism that you favor. Like I mentioned, someone needs to come out with some well-developed explanation of an alternative to the Trinitarian conception of God. It is weak to just restate the humanity aspects of Christ. That is not the issue on the table. The issue is about your denial of the deity of Christ. You neglect that aspect or come out with half-points against it. I have not heard a sufficient argument against the many verses about his deity. If some of your alternative explanations made sense, people might catch on. Instead you have become sort of this evangelist of divinity-denialism.

Speaking of unproven believisms, many of the greatest Trinitarian philosophers have ultimately concluded that the Trinity is an incomprehensible mystery. It's nonsense to attempt frame an entire belief system around something that not only is a mystery, but is more akin to a religion distinct from the Bible which adherents attach it to. It is a philosophy decorated with Bible verses, none of which directly state, describe, or explain what the philosophy is. In my experience, Trinitarianism is very short-sighted and ignores a plethora of other Biblical points to survive.

Woodbridge, A Handbook of Christian Truth (Westwood, NJ: F. H. Revell), 1953, pp. 51-52:
"The mind of man cannot fully understand the mystery of the Trinity. He who has tried to understand the mystery fully will lose his mind..."

God the Father by John MacArthur and Richard Mayhue taken from Biblical Doctrine by John MacArthur and Richard Mayhue, copyright 2017, Crossway Books:
"The Trinity is a mystery in two senses. It is a mystery in the biblical sense in that it is a truth that was hidden until revealed. But it is also a mystery in that, in its essence, it is suprarational, ultimately beyond human comprehension."

Darrell Johnson, Experiencing the Trinity (Regent College Publishing, 2002), p. 51:
"In the deepest mystery of his being, God is an intimate relationship, a fellowship, a community of love."

Catechism of the Catholic Church:
The Trinity is the central mystery of the Christian faith and life. It is the source of all other mysteries of Christian faith, the light that enlightens them.

Stephen Seamands, Ministry in the Image of God (IVP, 2005), p. 100:
More than any other Christian doctrine, the Trinity sets before us the mystery of God and points to the element of mystery in every aspect of our faith.

Leonardo Boff:
Seeing mystery…enables us to understand how it provokes reverence, the only possible attitude to what is supreme and final in our lives. It is not a mystery that leaves us dumb and terrified, but one that leaves us happy, singing, and giving thanks. Mystery is like a cliff; we may not be able to scale it, but we can stand at the foot of it, touch it, praise its beauty. So it is with the mystery of the Trinity.

 

[synergy]

Speaking of unproven believisms, many of the greatest Trinitarian philosophers have ultimately concluded that the Trinity is an incomprehensible mystery. It's nonsense to attempt frame an entire belief system around something that not only is a mystery, but is more akin to a religion distinct from the Bible which adherents attach it to. It is a philosophy decorated with Bible verses, none of which directly state, describe, or explain what the philosophy is. In my experience, Trinitarianism is very short-sighted and ignores a plethora of other Biblical points to survive.

Woodbridge, A Handbook of Christian Truth (Westwood, NJ: F. H. Revell), 1953, pp. 51-52:
"The mind of man cannot fully understand the mystery of the Trinity. He who has tried to understand the mystery fully will lose his mind..."

God the Father by John MacArthur and Richard Mayhue taken from Biblical Doctrine by John MacArthur and Richard Mayhue, copyright 2017, Crossway Books:
"The Trinity is a mystery in two senses. It is a mystery in the biblical sense in that it is a truth that was hidden until revealed. But it is also a mystery in that, in its essence, it is suprarational, ultimately beyond human comprehension."

Darrell Johnson, Experiencing the Trinity (Regent College Publishing, 2002), p. 51:
"In the deepest mystery of his being, God is an intimate relationship, a fellowship, a community of love."

Catechism of the Catholic Church:
The Trinity is the central mystery of the Christian faith and life. It is the source of all other mysteries of Christian faith, the light that enlightens them.

Stephen Seamands, Ministry in the Image of God (IVP, 2005), p. 100:
More than any other Christian doctrine, the Trinity sets before us the mystery of God and points to the element of mystery in every aspect of our faith.

Leonardo Boff:
Seeing mystery…enables us to understand how it provokes reverence, the only possible attitude to what is supreme and final in our lives. It is not a mystery that leaves us dumb and terrified, but one that leaves us happy, singing, and giving thanks. Mystery is like a cliff; we may not be able to scale it, but we can stand at the foot of it, touch it, praise its beauty. So it is with the mystery of the Trinity.

Since God is beyond our comprehension then of course so is the Trinitarianism. A God that you can be fully comprehended is not God, he is a man made idea.

 

[7xLightray]

The Word Became Flesh
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
John 1:1–5.

These opening verses here in John declare that Jesus is God, stressing his unique relationship with God the Father. Jesus is God the Son.

Jesus is God, but not in the way a trinitarian, or oneness state.
Nor is He the only true God Jn 17:3; Jesus cannot be the only true God that sent, for Jesus did not come of His own Jn 7:28; 8:42.

Jn 6:51 I am the living bread which came down out of heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: yea and the bread which I will give is my flesh, for the life of the world.
Jn 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father), full of grace and truth.
Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The word (which was with God, and was God) became flesh, The bread (which was with God, and was God) became flesh, referring to the body of Jesus Christ! The only begotten literal Son of God, therefore equal to God!

 

[mikesw]

Speaking of unproven believisms, many of the greatest Trinitarian philosophers have ultimately concluded that the Trinity is an incomprehensible mystery. It's nonsense to attempt frame an entire belief system around something that not only is a mystery, but is more akin to a religion distinct from the Bible which adherents attach it to. It is a philosophy decorated with Bible verses, none of which directly state, describe, or explain what the philosophy is. In my experience, Trinitarianism is very short-sighted and ignores a plethora of other Biblical points to survive.

Woodbridge, A Handbook of Christian Truth (Westwood, NJ: F. H. Revell), 1953, pp. 51-52:
"The mind of man cannot fully understand the mystery of the Trinity. He who has tried to understand the mystery fully will lose his mind..."

God the Father by John MacArthur and Richard Mayhue taken from Biblical Doctrine by John MacArthur and Richard Mayhue, copyright 2017, Crossway Books:
"The Trinity is a mystery in two senses. It is a mystery in the biblical sense in that it is a truth that was hidden until revealed. But it is also a mystery in that, in its essence, it is suprarational, ultimately beyond human comprehension."

Darrell Johnson, Experiencing the Trinity (Regent College Publishing, 2002), p. 51:
"In the deepest mystery of his being, God is an intimate relationship, a fellowship, a community of love."

Catechism of the Catholic Church:
The Trinity is the central mystery of the Christian faith and life. It is the source of all other mysteries of Christian faith, the light that enlightens them.

Stephen Seamands, Ministry in the Image of God (IVP, 2005), p. 100:
More than any other Christian doctrine, the Trinity sets before us the mystery of God and points to the element of mystery in every aspect of our faith.

Leonardo Boff:
Seeing mystery…enables us to understand how it provokes reverence, the only possible attitude to what is supreme and final in our lives. It is not a mystery that leaves us dumb and terrified, but one that leaves us happy, singing, and giving thanks. Mystery is like a cliff; we may not be able to scale it, but we can stand at the foot of it, touch it, praise its beauty. So it is with the mystery of the Trinity.

Thanks for sharing the witnesses of faith here.
It was just pointed out how foolish it is to think one understands the full essence of God. On some general biblical issues, some people fall back on the mystery too quickly. For the mystery of God's nature, some people dismiss that unreasonably.

 

[Runningman]

Since God is beyond our comprehension then of course so is the Trinitarianism. A God that you can be fully comprehended is not God, he is a man made idea.

Not according to Jesus. He revealed what the plain truths are already. The revelation is complete. They didn't include the Trinity. Sorry.

Matthew 13
11He replied, “The knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them.

 

[Runningman]

Thanks for sharing the witnesses of faith here.
It was just pointed out how foolish it is to think one understands the full essence of God. On some general biblical issues, some people fall back on the mystery too quickly. For the mystery of God's nature, some people dismiss that unreasonably.

Remaining in darkness, blissfully ignorant, seems to be the way you prefer. Jesus said you can know the Father.

John 14
7If you had known Me, you would know My Father as well. From now on you do know Him and have seen Him.”

 

[synergy]

Not according to Jesus. He revealed what the plain truths are already. The revelation is complete. They didn't include the Trinity. Sorry.

Matthew 13
11He replied, “The knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them.

So since you know all about the full workings of God's omniscience and omnipresence then do tell us how that works. I'll be expecting a full report by this Friday close of business.

 

[mikesw]

Remaining in darkness, blissfully ignorant, seems to be the way you prefer. Jesus said you can know the Father.

John 14
7If you had known Me, you would know My Father as well. From now on you do know Him and have seen Him.”

That is very persuasive. where did you learn that way to persuade people to your doctrines? Try that as the main argument of your book pushing for people to accept your doctrine and philosophy.

 

[Runningman]

That is very persuasive. where did you learn that way to persuade people to your doctrines? Try that as the main argument of your book pushing for people to accept your doctrine and philosophy.

The Bible makes all of the persuasions for me. You can know the Father. That's what I believe. No mention of knowing the Trinity... it will always be a self-contradictory enigma.

 

[mikesw]

The Bible makes all of the persuasions for me. You can know the Father. That's what I believe. No mention of knowing the Trinity... it will always be a self-contradictory enigma.

well. when you explain how to resolves that which appears contradictory of Christ's part in the Godhead, you will have a remarkable place in theological history. Maybe you will figure out something to change the Christians' view of the Godhead. You may need to be a bit more prepared to handle the challenges of that task though. But I doubt I would go with the quaternity that one of your posts would lead to.

 

[TomL]

From the beginning of Jesus' ministry in which the True Light was coming into the world, in John 1:9, when Jesus was already 30 years old. Jesus isn't the true Light who was coming into the world if he was already 30 years old when the true Light was coming. The context don't support the "beginning of creation" theory, in according with Jesus didn't literally pre-exist as someone. Yes, for sure he was in God's foreknowledge, in the bosom/heart of the Father as John 1:18 says, but not yet revealed. See why there are no words or actions by Jesus in the beginning of creation in Genesis 1 or anywhere else in the OT?

You have a major problem which you have previously failed to address

Philippians 2:4–7 (KJV 1900) — 4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others. 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

before he took upon himself the form of a man he existed in the form of God

addition before becoming flesh

He was with God and created all things

John 1:1–3 (KJV 1900) — 1 IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

And he had glory with god before the world began

John 17:5 (KJV 1900) — 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Try as you may, it is not possible to remove his pre-existance from the words of scripture

 

[Runningman]

well. when you explain how to resolves that which appears contradictory of Christ's part in the Godhead, you will have a remarkable place in theological history. Maybe you will figure out something to change the Christians' view of the Godhead. You may need to be a bit more prepared to handle the challenges of that task though. But I doubt I would go with the quaternity that one of your posts would lead to.

More fallaciously begging the question. What Godhead are you referring to? What Christian view of the Godhead? The Christians in the Bible didn't believe what you do nor explained it how you are. When you say things like that, it sounds like you're saying Christians believe something that isn't Scripture. Do you know what a Christian is?

 

[Runningman]

You have a major problem which you have previously failed to address

Philippians 2:4–7 (KJV 1900) — 4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others. 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

before he took upon himself the form of a man he existed in the form of God

addition before becoming flesh

He was with God and created all things

John 1:1–3 (KJV 1900) — 1 IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

And he had glory with god before the world began

John 17:5 (KJV 1900) — 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Try as you may, it is not possible to remove his pre-existance from the words of scripture

Not according to Scripture. You have failed to address how in Philippians 2:5 Paul was telling the church of Philippi to have the same mind as Jesus and then, when Paul explained the mind of Jesus, he didn't mention anything about Jesus previously existing as God. What Paul was describing must be something obtaining for the church of Philippi to have in their mind.

The version you provided doesn't make any sense either. God doesn't need to consider equality with himself because He is already God. However, Jesus did not consider equality with God according to Scripture. So your version also contains a contradiction.

John 14
28You heard Me say, ‘I am going away, and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved Me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father, because the Father is greater than I.

Work out the contradictions in your belief system and come back to that point when you have a workaround.

Next, John 1:1-3, in verse 2 ends with God. Verse 3 refers to the previously mentioned God. That would not be Jesus who created.

In the context of John 17:5, Jesus isn't God. John 17:3 says the Father is the only true God.

Any other misunderstandings?

 

[mikesw]

More fallaciously begging the question. What Godhead are you referring to? What Christian view of the Godhead? The Christians in the Bible didn't believe what you do nor explained it how you are. When you say things like that, it sounds like you're saying Christians believe something that isn't Scripture. Do you know what a Christian is?

I guess you are not aware of the later need to clarify the understanding of the Godhead against the heretical ideas. I do not use the lack of clarity of the Godhead as a proposal to say they did not reasonably know God. It is not a requirement that someone understand the Trinity to be justified in Christ, but it is a concern when a group denies the deity of Christ. It questions whether the organization has a balanced understanding of what we can know now.

 

[mikesw]

Not according to Scripture. You have failed to address how in Philippians 2:5 Paul was telling the church of Philippi to have the same mind as Jesus and then, when Paul explained the mind of Jesus, he didn't mention anything about Jesus previously existing as God. What Paul was describing must be something obtaining for the church of Philippi to have in their mind.

The version you provided doesn't make any sense either. God doesn't need to consider equality with himself because He is already God. However, Jesus did not consider equality with God according to Scripture. So your version also contains a contradiction.

John 14
28You heard Me say, ‘I am going away, and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved Me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father, because the Father is greater than I.

Work out the contradictions in your belief system and come back to that point when you have a workaround.

Next, John 1:1-3, in verse 2 ends with God. Verse 3 refers to the previously mentioned God. That would not be Jesus who created.

In the context of John 17:5, Jesus isn't God. John 17:3 says the Father is the only true God.

Any other misunderstandings?

No need to point out your failure to make a logical argument here. We have already pointed out enough problems in your logic. You may find yourself eventually improving your logic and recognizing when you have defended an idea sufficiently. Do not get mad at us for showing the flaws.

 

[TomL]

Not according to Scripture. You have failed to address how in Philippians 2:5 Paul was telling the church of Philippi to have the same mind as Jesus and then, when Paul explained the mind of Jesus, he didn't mention anything about Jesus previously existing as God. What Paul was describing must be something obtaining for the church of Philippi to have in their mind.

Did you even read the text?

Philippians 2:5–6 (NASB 2020) — 5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, as He already existed in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,

This has got to be the boldest form of bald denial I have ever seen

The version you provided doesn't make any sense either. God doesn't need to consider equality with himself because He is already God. However, Jesus did not consider equality with God according to Scripture. So your version also contains a contradiction.

There goes your confusion again. The person of the son is not the person of the Father

And it not my version but all versions

John 14
28You heard Me say, ‘I am going away, and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved Me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father, because the Father is greater than I.

Work out the contradictions in your belief system and come back to that point when you have a workaround.

There you go diverting

The issue is Christs pre-existance

Why are you avoiding the point?

You have a major problem which you have previously failed to address

Philippians 2:4–7 (KJV 1900) — 4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others. 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

before he took upon himself the form of a man he existed in the form of God

addition before becoming flesh

He was with God and created all things

John 1:1–3 (KJV 1900) — 1 IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

And he had glory with god before the world began

John 17:5 (KJV 1900) — 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Try as you may, it is not possible to remove his pre-existance from the words of scripture

Next, John 1:1-3, in verse 2 ends with God. Verse 3 refers to the previously mentioned God. That would not be Jesus who created.

In the context of John 17:5, Jesus isn't God. John 17:3 says the Father is the only true God.

Any other misunderstandings?

Again you deny scripture

John 1:1–3 (NASB 2020) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.

The word is he who was in the beginning he who was with God

The pronoun he refers to the Word who became flesh who is identified as Jesus Christ

still more scripture you must deny

Colossians 1:13–16 (KJV 1900) — 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

and even more

Ephesians 3:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

all you have offered is a denial of scripture and avoidance of the point

 

[mikesw]

Not according to Scripture. You have failed to address how in Philippians 2:5 Paul was telling the church of Philippi to have the same mind as Jesus and then, when Paul explained the mind of Jesus, he didn't mention anything about Jesus previously existing as God. What Paul was describing must be something obtaining for the church of Philippi to have in their mind.

The version you provided doesn't make any sense either. God doesn't need to consider equality with himself because He is already God. However, Jesus did not consider equality with God according to Scripture. So your version also contains a contradiction.

There goes your confusion again. The person of the son is not the person of the Father

When someone like Peterlag or Runningman speak of the Trinitarians as saying that Jesus could not be a second God, they sound like they have not even opened up the Bible for more than a few proof texts.

 

[Runningman]

I guess you are not aware of the later need to clarify the understanding of the Godhead against the heretical ideas. I do not use the lack of clarity of the Godhead as a proposal to say they did not reasonably know God. It is not a requirement that someone understand the Trinity to be justified in Christ, but it is a concern when a group denies the deity of Christ. It questions whether the organization has a balanced understanding of what we can know now.

I understand what the Trinity is, but you're speaking of it like you have some sort of claim to authority. It's not in Scripture so I won't enable you by allowing you to speak of it as if it's the Christian norm. Christians believe what Jesus and his apostles believed concerning the church and God. None of them taught anything about a Trinity God.

 

[Runningman]

No need to point out your failure to make a logical argument here. We have already pointed out enough problems in your logic. You may find yourself eventually improving your logic and recognizing when you have defended an idea sufficiently. Do not get mad at us for showing the flaws.

Why would I be mad? Are you saying that your words could potentially made someone mad? It's not a good translation. Jesus isn't equal to God in Scripture. He said so himself so you need to take it up with Jesus.

Jesus did not consider equality with God something to be grasped. Not the other way around. This is something obtainable for the church of Philippi which is what Paul's subject it. This entire passage is in reference to what the church of Philippi should be thinking about themselves.

Philippians 2
5Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus:
6Who, existing in the form of God,
did not consider equality with God
something to be grasped,
7but emptied Himself,
taking the form of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
He humbled Himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross.