Runningman
Active member
It doesn't help. Please stop saying "hope this helps !!!" as if that closes the matter.
So you deny that God can know and love someone before they literally exist? The Bible says otherwise.
Jesus denied being God
- Thread starter Runningman
- Start date
So you deny that God can know and love someone before they literally exist? The Bible says otherwise.
The Word was also "With God", who God sent into the world. This world's religious system often omits this part of John's teaching in order to preserve and protect the image of God in the likeness of man they have created.
The Jesus of the Bible teaches over and over that His God and my God "Sent Him" into the world.
John 17: 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. 4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had "with thee" before the world was.
John 11: 41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.
42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe "that thou hast sent me".
You preach that God came to earth as "Fully God" and overcame temptation and death, "because" HE was Fully God.
John teaches that the Word of God that was "With God" became a man.
Not if you omitted that the Word was "With God", or that God the Father sent the Word that was "With Him" into the world.
John says, and the Jesus "of the Bible" says that He was in the beginning "With God". This truth cannot be used to support and promote the image of God this world's religious system has created, and therefore it is omitted by many "who come in Christ's Name". Nevertheless, clearly the Jesus "of the Bible" knew the difference between the Father, and the Son that was with the Father, who the Father sent into the world.
Gen. 3: 22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as "one of us", to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
John 17: 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory "which I had with thee" before the world was.
Is. 9: 6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and "his name" shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Psalms 110: The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. 2 The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.
Phil. 2: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore (Because of these Works) God also hath highly exalted him, and given him "a name" which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that "Jesus Christ is Lord", to the glory of God the Father. (Who was with Him before the world was.)
John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
John 8: 12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
Gen. 1: 3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Yes, God sent His Word to create all things that are in heaven and in the earth.
"For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. "
He is my High Priest, my Lord and Saviour, Sent by God the Father, advocating between me and His Father who HE says is Greater than He, standing at the Right Hand of His God, His Father and my Father to this very day.
And why is this?
Because as HE says, and I believe Him, "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee "the only true God", "and" Jesus Christ, whom "thou" hast sent.
The Word that was "With God" laid down His immortal life and became a mortal man.
civic
Well-known member
God is love demands God is more than a solitary person
Runningman
Active member
I have nothing to take up with John and I agree with what he has said. I believe the whole Bible.
Great you quoted Scripture showing that what God has is Jesus' and vice versa, but please don't stop there! We can have that, too, according to Scripture.
Romans 8
17And if we are children, then we are heirs: heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ—if indeed we suffer with Him, so that we may also be glorified with Him.
Cool! You also quoted a verse about Jesus' oneness with God! Please don't stop there because there is more! Jesus prayed the disciples would have that oneness as well!
John 17
21that all of them may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I am in You. May they also be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.
22I have given them the glory You gave Me, so that they may be one as We are one—
Wow. Everyone else is getting the same things Jesus had. Jesus is the example of what is potentially attainable for you, not God. There's a lot of evidence in Scripture for this. I quoted some above. There is a lot more.
Godhead just translates to the deity. There isn't a "Godhead" of three persons in Scripture. While I understand the Trinitarian concept refers to God being in three persons, that would result in the God who is in them being God and the persons not being God. Trinitarian contains that contradiction because it's impossible to convert God into a substance and equally divide Him up among persons and then say they are all God together when they are not. This is not a Biblical concept. God is spoke of as a singular person aggressively in Scripture. Never plainly described as a Trinity.
I think I see what you're saying here. You don't believe God is one person, but rather "one" refers to unity? How do you delineate where God ends and where God begins when Jesus isn't the only one who is one with God according to Scripture? That idea you seem to be presenting falls apart with John 17:21,22. The alternative is God is just one, singular, person.
Thank you for explaining what you believe. I have to respectfully disagree with your presentation of Scripture. I believe the idea of being one with God and the other ideas you presented aren't exclusively to Jesus. If the things that you believe make Jesus God also apply to others then they aren't things that make Jesus God if we are not God for having the same things he does. He's your example and he denied being God on more than one occasion.
Here's another example:
The sons of the Most High are the ones to whom the word of God came and there are many. Not just one. Jesus said he is one of the sons of the Most High in John 10. That means Jesus isn't the Most High because the other sons aren't the Most High. Jesus called this an accusation against him and seemed to be baffled they would accuse him for what Scripture says regarding many.
John 10
34Jesus replied, “Is it not written in your Law: ‘I have said you are gods’? 35If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— 36then what about the One whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world? How then can you accuse Me of blasphemy for stating that I am the Son of God?
Runningman
Active member
Um... there is no mention of a Trinity in 1 John 3 concerning the Father's love for us. That's talking about my God with no mention of requiring a Trinity for the Father to loves us. Where is your God mentioned?
1 John 3
1Behold what manner of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God. And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know Him.
civic
Well-known member
For the readers who are open minded. 
A unitarian god cannot know or experience love as a solitary person. That god is incapable of love for the scriptures declare that God is love. It is impossible for that god to love for there was nothing to love before creation. This god would need created beings to love him out of something lacking within his very nature. For someone to love there must be another to share in that love.
God is love because He loves within His own nature. God could not love if He was only one person. God would be contradicting Himself if He was not self sufficient. God is Love means that He has this ability to love within Himself. This is only possible if He is a tri-personal God whom the scriptures declare to be The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. That is impossible. It is an oxymoron.
The only viable answer to Gods love and that He is love is for God to be Triune in nature which would explain why and how God is love. A false god who is only a solitary person cannot know what love is as there is no one to love. That god is void of love by nature. The only viable answer to Gods love and that He is love is for God to be Triune in nature which would explain why and how God is love.
God is a personal, relational being by His very essence or nature. There are roles within the Godhead that have to do with the tri-personal nature of His being. The Father sends the Son, The Son submits to the Father. The Holy Spirit speaks of and honors the Father and the Son. Jesus said I and the Father are one. We clearly see the relationship of the Triune Godhead in the 14th-16th chapters of John.
Now it is very interesting that when we begin with God(Trinity) we see that He has designed not only man, but the family and the Church to represent and reflect His very own nature. God has designed this order and is clearly seen back in Genesis 1-2.
When God created the first 6 days He declared everything "was good". We read the only time in creation where God said otherwise was when He created man (who was made in His very own image). He used the plural form by saying LET US make man in OUR image after OUR likeness.
But God did not stop there. He said it was NOT GOOD for man to be alone. Why did God say this ? Man was created to be a relational being just like God (trinity). God created woman so that man would not be alone as God is not alone. The two would become ONE just as the Father and the Son are ONE.
Man was to procreate and have a family. Within the family unit Man is the head of the woman. The woman submits to the man. The Son submits to the Father. The Holy Spirit honors both the Father and the Son. The children are to honor their Mother and their Father. This reflects the very nature of God.
Now the same is true of the Church. Christ is the Head of the body. The body consists of Leaders(elder, pastors, teachers etc...)and the flock. The leaders submit to Christ and the flock is to submit to the leaders.
In the above we see the family(husband, wife and children) and the Church(Christ,leaders and the flock) are all designed to reflect the triune nature of God by the relationships and order of these institutions.
Conclusion:God is love because He loves within His own nature. God could not love if He was only one person. God would be contradicting Himself if He was not self sufficient. God is Love means that He has this ability to love within Himself. This is only possible if He is a tri-personal God.
hope this helps !!!
A unitarian god cannot know or experience love as a solitary person. That god is incapable of love for the scriptures declare that God is love. It is impossible for that god to love for there was nothing to love before creation. This god would need created beings to love him out of something lacking within his very nature. For someone to love there must be another to share in that love.
God is love because He loves within His own nature. God could not love if He was only one person. God would be contradicting Himself if He was not self sufficient. God is Love means that He has this ability to love within Himself. This is only possible if He is a tri-personal God whom the scriptures declare to be The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. That is impossible. It is an oxymoron.
The only viable answer to Gods love and that He is love is for God to be Triune in nature which would explain why and how God is love. A false god who is only a solitary person cannot know what love is as there is no one to love. That god is void of love by nature. The only viable answer to Gods love and that He is love is for God to be Triune in nature which would explain why and how God is love.
God is a personal, relational being by His very essence or nature. There are roles within the Godhead that have to do with the tri-personal nature of His being. The Father sends the Son, The Son submits to the Father. The Holy Spirit speaks of and honors the Father and the Son. Jesus said I and the Father are one. We clearly see the relationship of the Triune Godhead in the 14th-16th chapters of John.
Now it is very interesting that when we begin with God(Trinity) we see that He has designed not only man, but the family and the Church to represent and reflect His very own nature. God has designed this order and is clearly seen back in Genesis 1-2.
When God created the first 6 days He declared everything "was good". We read the only time in creation where God said otherwise was when He created man (who was made in His very own image). He used the plural form by saying LET US make man in OUR image after OUR likeness.
But God did not stop there. He said it was NOT GOOD for man to be alone. Why did God say this ? Man was created to be a relational being just like God (trinity). God created woman so that man would not be alone as God is not alone. The two would become ONE just as the Father and the Son are ONE.
Man was to procreate and have a family. Within the family unit Man is the head of the woman. The woman submits to the man. The Son submits to the Father. The Holy Spirit honors both the Father and the Son. The children are to honor their Mother and their Father. This reflects the very nature of God.
Now the same is true of the Church. Christ is the Head of the body. The body consists of Leaders(elder, pastors, teachers etc...)and the flock. The leaders submit to Christ and the flock is to submit to the leaders.
In the above we see the family(husband, wife and children) and the Church(Christ,leaders and the flock) are all designed to reflect the triune nature of God by the relationships and order of these institutions.
Conclusion:God is love because He loves within His own nature. God could not love if He was only one person. God would be contradicting Himself if He was not self sufficient. God is Love means that He has this ability to love within Himself. This is only possible if He is a tri-personal God.
hope this helps !!!
The word who became flesh was seen and handled
John 1:1–18 (NASB 2020) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of mankind. 5 And the Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not grasp it. 6 A man came, one sent from God, and his name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light. 9 This was the true Light that, coming into the world, enlightens every person. 10 He was in the world, and the world came into being through Him, and yet the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own people did not accept Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of a man, but of God. 14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us; and we saw His glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John testified about Him and called out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who is coming after me has proved to be my superior, because He existed before me.’ ” 16 For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. 17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time; God the only Son, who is in the arms of the Father, He has explained Him.
compare
1 John 1:1–3 (NASB 2020) — 1 What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life—2 and the life was revealed, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was revealed to us—3 what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ.
civic
Well-known member
Yep
I mean it seems to me you must be unwilling to not see the comparisonYep
So which type of Glory did God give in OT times and before to Jesus, as recorded in John 17:5, when He said the following:
(Isaiah 42:8) I am the Lord, that is My name;
And My glory I will not give to another,
Nor My praise to carved images.
(John 17:5) And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You
That's talking about the Messiah, God as confirmed by the Father.
Where is Jesus ever referred to as "a god", besides the JW Bible?
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Runningman
Active member
Not according to Scripture. According to Scripture, the reason you disrespectfully refer to God as just "god" is because you do not know Him. Apostle John testified that the Father has given us love that we should be called children of God.For the readers who are open minded.
A unitarian god cannot know or experience love as a solitary person. That god is incapable of love for the scriptures declare that God is love. It is impossible for that god to love for there was nothing to love before creation. This god would need created beings to love him out of something lacking within his very nature. For someone to love there must be another to share in that love.
God is love because He loves within His own nature. God could not love if He was only one person. God would be contradicting Himself if He was not self sufficient. God is Love means that He has this ability to love within Himself. This is only possible if He is a tri-personal God whom the scriptures declare to be The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. That is impossible. It is an oxymoron.
The only viable answer to Gods love and that He is love is for God to be Triune in nature which would explain why and how God is love. A false god who is only a solitary person cannot know what love is as there is no one to love. That god is void of love by nature. The only viable answer to Gods love and that He is love is for God to be Triune in nature which would explain why and how God is love.
God is a personal, relational being by His very essence or nature. There are roles within the Godhead that have to do with the tri-personal nature of His being. The Father sends the Son, The Son submits to the Father. The Holy Spirit speaks of and honors the Father and the Son. Jesus said I and the Father are one. We clearly see the relationship of the Triune Godhead in the 14th-16th chapters of John.
Now it is very interesting that when we begin with God(Trinity) we see that He has designed not only man, but the family and the Church to represent and reflect His very own nature. God has designed this order and is clearly seen back in Genesis 1-2.
When God created the first 6 days He declared everything "was good". We read the only time in creation where God said otherwise was when He created man (who was made in His very own image). He used the plural form by saying LET US make man in OUR image after OUR likeness.
But God did not stop there. He said it was NOT GOOD for man to be alone. Why did God say this ? Man was created to be a relational being just like God (trinity). God created woman so that man would not be alone as God is not alone. The two would become ONE just as the Father and the Son are ONE.
Man was to procreate and have a family. Within the family unit Man is the head of the woman. The woman submits to the man. The Son submits to the Father. The Holy Spirit honors both the Father and the Son. The children are to honor their Mother and their Father. This reflects the very nature of God.
Now the same is true of the Church. Christ is the Head of the body. The body consists of Leaders(elder, pastors, teachers etc...)and the flock. The leaders submit to Christ and the flock is to submit to the leaders.
In the above we see the family(husband, wife and children) and the Church(Christ,leaders and the flock) are all designed to reflect the triune nature of God by the relationships and order of these institutions.
Conclusion:God is love because He loves within His own nature. God could not love if He was only one person. God would be contradicting Himself if He was not self sufficient. God is Love means that He has this ability to love within Himself. This is only possible if He is a tri-personal God.
hope this helps !!!
1 John 3
1Behold what manner of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God. And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know Him.
There is no such mention of the Father requiring the literal presence or existence of someone else for Him to love them. When will you believe?
Ephesians 1
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms. 4For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence. In love 5He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6to the praise of His glorious grace, which He has freely given us in the Beloved One.
Runningman
Active member
Yes! Let's compare as I had already done for many pages now. "What was from the beginning" is what they say they can see, hear, and touch. The Word in the beginning was not something they could see, hear, and touch. The Word did not "become" flesh until Jesus was created. Therefore Jesus was not the person they could see, hear, and touch from the beginning of creation. This refers to the context of Jesus already being alive and performing in his ministry. Therefore, Jesus is a person and the Word is a thing as 1 John 1:1-2 says. The Word of life is eternal life, not a third, fourth, or sixth person.
It does not say they had to touch or hear him in the beginning
Only that they did in fact touch and hear him - Christ
the Facts are He was from the beginning with God and they heard and saw him
That is clearly what we see in John chapter 1 which applies to Jesus
Same author and the same facts
You are failing to allow scripture to interpret itself
Runningman
Active member
From the beginning of Jesus' ministry in which the True Light was coming into the world, in John 1:9, when Jesus was already 30 years old. Jesus isn't the true Light who was coming into the world if he was already 30 years old when the true Light was coming. The context don't support the "beginning of creation" theory, in according with Jesus didn't literally pre-exist as someone. Yes, for sure he was in God's foreknowledge, in the bosom/heart of the Father as John 1:18 says, but not yet revealed. See why there are no words or actions by Jesus in the beginning of creation in Genesis 1 or anywhere else in the OT?
MTMattie
Member
Rinse and repeat:
You don't want to and I am done showing you the way that is right in front of your very own eyeballs.
Back to ignore time......
Runningman
Active member
I am not done showing you the way that is right. When your heart softens I am here.
I keep noting that you are not recognizing the nuances of scripture. But it is not only the nuances, you miss John 1 and Isa 9:6. If it was so simple to deny the deity of Christ, there would be more people following you.
Runningman
Active member
I don't need followers, just need people to follow Jesus who himself denied being God. Based on my research, more people agree with me than they do with you, not that numbers are an indicator of truth. In fact, the broad way to destruction is said to be more popular and the weeds are said to outnumber the wheat. So if you're looking for numbers, you might be looking in the wrong place. You're comparing Trinitarianism to Christianity. They are not the same things.
Oops. I'm comparing God to the Divine. Weird.
You are talking about an unproven believism that you favor. Like I mentioned, someone needs to come out with some well-developed explanation of an alternative to the Trinitarian conception of God. It is weak to just restate the humanity aspects of Christ. That is not the issue on the table. The issue is about your denial of the deity of Christ. You neglect that aspect or come out with half-points against it. I have not heard a sufficient argument against the many verses about his deity. If some of your alternative explanations made sense, people might catch on. Instead you have become sort of this evangelist of divinity-denialism.
7xLightray
Member
You are not saying, Peter, who went about doing good, and would go on to died for his Lord (no greater love), if locked up in Solitary confinement, with hands and feet tied, and a gaged mouth, would no longer be a loving person, because there was no one around to love, and because he could not talk, and act? Or, when we sleep, does the spirit of God leave us, or is the spirit quenched, because we stopped being loving while we slept?For the readers who are open minded.
Love is also a sacrifice, what bad could one of the God persons be doing to have to be shown longsuffering. Which of the three would God have to be patient with, if each is perfect? But wait, is not God the substance (to a, or some, trinitarians), why would substance need to show patients? How can God show longsuffering, if there was no one to force longsuffering? How could God be a merceyful God, if there was no one to show mercey to? Is not mercy a loving act, who was God showing this love/mercy to, the Father, Son, or Holy Spirit?
Love starts by being loving inside, first (It would seem to me we agree here)! Love starts, or is, from the heart, not the mind. One may choose in their mind to perform an loving act, but what was the motive of the heart (Judas Jn 12:4-6)?
1Co 13:2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
1Co 13:3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.
Love is of the heart (inside), Love is put on display when the time is right. There is a time to love, and a time to hate.
