Jacob and Esau

[praise_yeshua]

LOL, your the same people who scream all means all.

Quote me. I've never said it is "all without exception". Quote me. Context establishes the scope.

Easy
God created all things including time. God is not subject to the rules of time.

What rules of time? Please share from the Scriptures?

Do you know what the words yesterday, today and forever mean?

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Isaiah 46:10 Declaring from the beginning the latter end, And from of old that which hath not been done, Saying, `My counsel doth stand, And all My delight I do.'

The operative word is "Declaring".

 

[Presby02]

This might be helpful--

Throughout history, many theologians and philosophers have explored the concept of God as the creator of time. While ancient scholarly works may not use the language of modern physics or cosmology, they often grapple with the idea of God's relationship to time and His role as its creator. Here are a few examples:

Augustine of Hippo (354-430 AD): In his seminal work "Confessions" and other writings, Augustine discusses God's relationship to time extensively. He posited that God exists outside of time and that time itself is a creation of God. Augustine's reflections on the nature of time profoundly influenced later Christian thought.

Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274 AD): Aquinas, in his "Summa Theologica" and other writings, explored the nature of God's eternity and His relationship to time. He argued that God is eternal and exists beyond time, being the creator of time and space.

Maimonides (1135-1204 AD): In his "Guide for the Perplexed," Maimonides, a Jewish philosopher, discussed the concept of God's eternity and His relationship to time. He argued that God's eternity is beyond human comprehension and that time is a creation of God.

Plotinus (204-270 AD): Plotinus, a Neoplatonic philosopher, wrote extensively on metaphysics, including the nature of the divine. He proposed that the One (the ultimate reality) is beyond time and is the source of all existence, including time itself.

Plato (428/427-348/347 BC): While not explicitly addressing the concept of God creating time, Plato's dialogues, particularly the "Timaeus," discuss the creation of the cosmos by a divine craftsman (the Demiurge). This creation includes the imposition of order, which could be seen as the establishment of temporal sequence.

These ancient scholars and philosophers grappled with profound questions about the nature of God, existence, and the universe, including the idea of God as the creator of time. While their perspectives may vary based on cultural and religious backgrounds, they collectively contributed to the development of theological and philosophical thought on this topic.

Shalom.

I have a question. The Bible says God does not change. Would, in your opinion time involve change necessarily ?

 

[praise_yeshua]

This might be helpful--

Throughout history, many theologians and philosophers have explored the concept of God as the creator of time. While ancient scholarly works may not use the language of modern physics or cosmology, they often grapple with the idea of God's relationship to time and His role as its creator. Here are a few examples:

Augustine of Hippo (354-430 AD): In his seminal work "Confessions" and other writings, Augustine discusses God's relationship to time extensively. He posited that God exists outside of time and that time itself is a creation of God. Augustine's reflections on the nature of time profoundly influenced later Christian thought.

Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274 AD): Aquinas, in his "Summa Theologica" and other writings, explored the nature of God's eternity and His relationship to time. He argued that God is eternal and exists beyond time, being the creator of time and space.

Maimonides (1135-1204 AD): In his "Guide for the Perplexed," Maimonides, a Jewish philosopher, discussed the concept of God's eternity and His relationship to time. He argued that God's eternity is beyond human comprehension and that time is a creation of God.

Plotinus (204-270 AD): Plotinus, a Neoplatonic philosopher, wrote extensively on metaphysics, including the nature of the divine. He proposed that the One (the ultimate reality) is beyond time and is the source of all existence, including time itself.

Plato (428/427-348/347 BC): While not explicitly addressing the concept of God creating time, Plato's dialogues, particularly the "Timaeus," discuss the creation of the cosmos by a divine craftsman (the Demiurge). This creation includes the imposition of order, which could be seen as the establishment of temporal sequence.

These ancient scholars and philosophers grappled with profound questions about the nature of God, existence, and the universe, including the idea of God as the creator of time. While their perspectives may vary based on cultural and religious backgrounds, they collectively contributed to the development of theological and philosophical thought on this topic.

Shalom.

How about quoting Augustine. You are basing what you believe in the writings of men that have never studied Augustine. One person starts a lie and you believe it because it was simply stated that he said something.

 

[Presby02]

Quote me. I've never said it is "all without exception". Quote me. Context establishes the scope.



What rules of time? Please share from the Scriptures?

Do you know what the words yesterday, today and forever mean?

We agree on something. I should not have assumed you denied all does not necessarily have to mean all without exception.

Time does not have rules? Can you travel back or forward in time?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Isaiah 46:10 Declaring from the beginning the latter end, And from of old that which hath not been done, Saying, `My counsel doth stand, And all My delight I do.'

The operative word is "Declaring".

Can you read Hebrew? Or did you check the Greek on this?

Have you abandoned your recent affinity to create your own English translations?

Why such instability from you?

The earth had a beginning.

 

[praise_yeshua]

We agree on something. I should not have assumed you denied all does not necessarily have to mean all without exception.

Time does not have rules? Can you travel back or forward in time?

No. I can't. God doesn't travel back and forth through time. Prove it. You're the one that mentions rules. Shouldn't you define them?

 

[Presby02]

No. I can't. God doesn't travel back and forth through time. Prove it. You're the one that mentions rules. Shouldn't you define them?

I just gave you two. You agreed. You cannot travel through time. Never claimed God traveled through time. Why would that be necessary if He exists outside of time?

 

[Johann]

The Bible says God does not change. Would, in your opinion time involve change necessarily ?

Just my opinion brother-I don't really want to get involved in this thread-

The statement "God does not change" is rooted in various biblical passages that emphasize the immutability or unchanging nature of God. For example, Malachi 3:6 declares, "I the Lord do not change. So you, the descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed." Similarly, James 1:17 states, "Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows."

Now, regarding whether time necessarily involves change, it's a complex philosophical and scientific question. In philosophical discussions, time is often associated with change because events unfold sequentially, and objects undergo transformations. The passage of time is marked by the succession of moments, each different from the previous one.

However, some philosophical perspectives posit that time itself doesn't change; rather, it provides the framework within which change occurs. In this view, time is a constant backdrop against which events unfold, but it remains unchanged by those events.

In terms of scientific understanding, the relationship between time and change is also intricate. In classical physics, time is considered a fundamental dimension along which events occur, and change is described in terms of how quantities (such as position, velocity, etc.) evolve with respect to time.

However, in modern physics, particularly in the theory of relativity and quantum mechanics, our understanding of time becomes more nuanced. For instance, in Einstein's theory of relativity, time is treated as a dimension intertwined with space in what is called spacetime. This theory suggests that time is not experienced uniformly by all observers and can be affected by factors such as gravity and velocity.

In conclusion, while time and change are often conceptually linked, there are philosophical and scientific perspectives that challenge a simplistic understanding of this relationship. Whether time necessarily involves change depends on the specific framework and context within which one examines the concept.

SO--the idea that "God does not change" finds its basis in various biblical passages, particularly those emphasizing God's immutability or unchanging nature. Here are some key verses:

Malachi 3:6: "I the Lord do not change. So you, the descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed."

James 1:17: "Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows."

Psalm 102:25-27: "In the beginning you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment. Like clothing you will change them and they will be discarded. But you remain the same, and your years will never end."

These passages, among others, affirm the unchanging nature of God. The concept of God's immutability is foundational in Judeo-Christian theology and has been expounded upon by theologians throughout history.

As for the discussion about time and change, it draws from various philosophical and scientific perspectives. Philosophically, the idea of time and change has been explored by thinkers across different traditions, while scientifically, concepts of time have been developed through fields like physics and cosmology, particularly in theories like relativity and quantum mechanics.

I really hope this will be beneficial to you.
Johann

 

[Presby02]

Just my opinion brother-I don't really want to get involved in this thread-

The statement "God does not change" is rooted in various biblical passages that emphasize the immutability or unchanging nature of God. For example, Malachi 3:6 declares, "I the Lord do not change. So you, the descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed." Similarly, James 1:17 states, "Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows."

Now, regarding whether time necessarily involves change, it's a complex philosophical and scientific question. In philosophical discussions, time is often associated with change because events unfold sequentially, and objects undergo transformations. The passage of time is marked by the succession of moments, each different from the previous one.

However, some philosophical perspectives posit that time itself doesn't change; rather, it provides the framework within which change occurs. In this view, time is a constant backdrop against which events unfold, but it remains unchanged by those events.

In terms of scientific understanding, the relationship between time and change is also intricate. In classical physics, time is considered a fundamental dimension along which events occur, and change is described in terms of how quantities (such as position, velocity, etc.) evolve with respect to time.

However, in modern physics, particularly in the theory of relativity and quantum mechanics, our understanding of time becomes more nuanced. For instance, in Einstein's theory of relativity, time is treated as a dimension intertwined with space in what is called spacetime. This theory suggests that time is not experienced uniformly by all observers and can be affected by factors such as gravity and velocity.

In conclusion, while time and change are often conceptually linked, there are philosophical and scientific perspectives that challenge a simplistic understanding of this relationship. Whether time necessarily involves change depends on the specific framework and context within which one examines the concept.

SO--the idea that "God does not change" finds its basis in various biblical passages, particularly those emphasizing God's immutability or unchanging nature. Here are some key verses:

Malachi 3:6: "I the Lord do not change. So you, the descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed."

James 1:17: "Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows."

Psalm 102:25-27: "In the beginning you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment. Like clothing you will change them and they will be discarded. But you remain the same, and your years will never end."

These passages, among others, affirm the unchanging nature of God. The concept of God's immutability is foundational in Judeo-Christian theology and has been expounded upon by theologians throughout history.

As for the discussion about time and change, it draws from various philosophical and scientific perspectives. Philosophically, the idea of time and change has been explored by thinkers across different traditions, while scientifically, concepts of time have been developed through fields like physics and cosmology, particularly in theories like relativity and quantum mechanics.

I really hope this will be beneficial to you.
Johann

Thanks! Very informative

 

[civic]

Does all mean all without exception yes or no?

Time had a beginning so according to your logic God also had a beginning.

Who says time has a beginning ?

 

[praise_yeshua]

I just gave you two. You agreed.

Show where I said I agreed? Quote me.

You cannot travel through time.

I don't have such power. What exactly are you claiming this means? Be specific. Assuming your claims are the basis of this conversation is unethical. Prove things from the Scriptures.

Never claimed God traveled through time. Why would that be necessary if He exists outside of time?

Never said it was. I simply stated my position that God doesn't travel back and forth through time.

Do you think God forgets? Be specific. He does. You know how I know. Because He said He does.

Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

I could end this argument in about 5 mins if we were gathered together.

 

[Johann]

Who says time has a beginning ?

Was there time BEFORE the beginning?

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Can you read Hebrew? Or did you check the Greek on this?

Have you abandoned your recent affinity to create your own English translations?

Why such instability from you?

The earth had a beginning.

I have switched to using YLT most of the time, since it is a literal translation.

Please stop responding to our posts by making it about the person to whom you are responding.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Thanks! Very informative

Glad you're actually learning something. If you're still learning this, then why are you debating me as if you already know?

@Johann

You're more than welcome to join. Please do. You should recognize that what you just posted didn't come from you. Again. You're fast a copy and paste.

 

[Johann]

I have switched to using YLT most of the time, since it is a literal translation.

Please stop responding to our posts by making it about the person to whom you are responding.

Nothing wrong in using the YLT brother-just remember, always respond-never react.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I have switched to using YLT most of the time, since it is a literal translation.

Young was an amateur. He was a "compiler" of information.

Please stop responding to our posts by making it about the person to whom you are responding.

Your tactics changed. It wasn't personal. You just informed me and then claimed it was personal. That makes your comments personal. Not mine.

Please don't be upset because I point out the fact that you're randomly "changing".

 

[Johann]

Glad you're actually learning something. If you're still learning this, then why are you debating me as if you already know?

@Johann

You're more than welcome to join. Please do. You should recognize that what you just posted didn't come from you. Again. You're fast a copy and paste.

Prove the post wrong.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Was there time BEFORE the beginning?

The beginning of the earth?

Why yes....

Why are you responding in this thread when you said you didn't want to be part of the topic?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Prove the post wrong.

I asked you to quote Augustine actual words. Then you should translates them.

The onus is not upon me to do this work for you. Prove you copy and paste is accurate. Also, you will not provide the source when you should.