civic
Well-known member
Amen see spot run and avoid addressing the passages of how one becomes in Christ/Him. The texts are never directly addressed but avoided like the plague. Just like on the other forum.
Jacob and Esau
- Thread starter The Rogue Tomato
- Start date
God had from the beginning had chosen them for salvation.
civic
Well-known member
This seems so typical. Ii cannot tell you how many times I have seen calvinists avoid difficult passages
You did nothing to address this
Sorry but there was no running off
verses 1, 3, 4 in context, and verse 13 were all addressed and shown to refute your claim
and you just dismissed it
That is nothing more than denial
I noted two possibilities how men can be chosen before the foundation of the earth without unconditional election and you just ignore them
the "you" are believers - those in Christ
Context matters
Ephesians 1:1 (ESV) — 1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus:
Nothing there states they were men unconditionally chosen. Your theology just assumes that
You do not address this
all their blessing are in Christ
Ephesians 1:3 (ESV) — 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,
You did not address this
it is in Christ they are chosen to be holy and blameless
Ephesians 1:4 (ESV) — 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
so they have to be in Christ before being chosen
You did not address this either
Now this could either be based on God's foreknowledge
or his corporate election where he determined all in Christ would be chosen to be holy and blameless
but it cannot be unconditional because all those blessing are in Christ
You did not address this either
and one is not in Christ until he believes trusts in Christ
Ephesians 1:13 (ESV) — 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
and that transpires in time
Romans 16:7 (ESV) — 7 Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners. They are well known to the apostles, and they were in Christ before me.
Were in 2 Thessalonians. LOL
civic
Well-known member
Yes just like in Romans 8 where Paul declares who God foreknows He then predestines, Peter says the same with election. 1 Pet 1:2 its according to the foreknowledge of God. Foreknowledge is the grounds/foundation for election/predestination.
Nope. God has from the beginning chosen you for salvation. Who does the choosing again? GOD
No mention of a plan
You forgot a third option. God had chosen them for salvation. LOL
Foreoved? Those whom He foreloved? The word is a verb.
um you truncated the verse
2 Thessalonians 2:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
God chose to save gentiles by the sanctification of the Spirit and belief in the truth
the same way he saves jews
LOL indeed
he saves those in christ
Men who do not exist are not in Christ
and
2 Thessalonians 2:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
God chose to save gentiles by the sanctification of the Spirit and belief in the truth
the same way he saves Jews
Sounds like a plan to me
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civic
Well-known member
Try again reading with comprehension and the order in which the Apostles place election/predestination- Its after God foreknows.
Romans 8 where Paul declares who God foreknows He then predestines, Peter says the same with election. 1 Pet 1:2 its according to the foreknowledge of God.
Roms 8- First is Those whom God foreknows, Second is those He predestines
1 Peter- First is Those who God foreknows, Second is those are the ones who are elect.
1- God foreknows
2- God elects/predestines
conclusion: election/predestination comes from Gods foreknowledge. Not vice versa.
hope this helps !!!
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Yep. God foreknows them in Christ.
civic
Well-known member
Yes that is the central doctrine in Pauline Theology the calvinists ignore. The devalue Christ and exalt themselves as the chosen ones, the special group.
Through being the means. Absolutely. AMEN
No mention of a plan. It does say God from the beginning chose them for salvation. How you ask? By being set apart by the Spirit and belief in the truth.
Good post
Foreknow/known carries with it a special meaning
Romans 8:28–29 (ESV) — 28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
1 Corinthians 8:3 (KJV 1900) — 3 But if any man love God, the same is known of him.
Galatians 4:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
it refers to those who are in a relationship with God
civic
Well-known member
Um no one was saved in eternity past
And in your theology election is a plan to save in the future
all one gets from that verse is God determined to save gentiles by sanctification of the spirit and belief in the truth
There is nothing there about unconditional election and belief in the truth would be a condition
It is just as assumption he unconditionally selects men to believe as the verse does not say that
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civic
Well-known member
correct eternal life, salvation, regeneration happens in time- after one believes and receives Christ through the gospel message.
unbelievable the false teachings some will buy into hook, line and sinker.
So then obviously any move to save before the foundation of the earth can only be a plan
Presby02 seems to forget that election in his view is a plan to save in the future
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