Jacob and Esau

[The Rogue Tomato]

I've seen people claim that this section is not talking about the persons of Jacob and Esau, but the nations.

10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

("the children") is added to the text, but you can't avoid not yet being born nor having done any good or evil. He's talking about Jacob and Esau, not the nations. It can be further applied to the nations, but the context is clearly about the unborn Jacob and Esau. And again, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated” is clearly about the two individuals.

Why is this important? Because the point is "that the purpose of God according to election might stand", which says that God made the choice before they were even born.

 

[Diserner]

Notice the prophesy is "the older shall server the younger," not "the older shall be damned unconditionally."

None of us are saved based on our works, our "good or evil," that is a foundation of justification by faith.

Too much is being extrapolated from this passage that it does not say.

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/an-arminian-dares-to-walk-through-the-text-of-romans-9.174/

 

[praise_yeshua]

I've seen people claim that this section is not talking about the persons of Jacob and Esau, but the nations.

10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

("the children") is added to the text, but you can't avoid not yet being born nor having done any good or evil. He's talking about Jacob and Esau, not the nations. It can be further applied to the nations, but the context is clearly about the unborn Jacob and Esau. And again, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated” is clearly about the two individuals.

Why is this important? Because the point is "that the purpose of God according to election might stand", which says that God made the choice before they were even born.

It is talking about Christ and Adam. The elder shall serve the younger.... The Eternal serving the finite.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

It is talking about Christ and Adam. The elder shall serve the younger.... The Eternal serving the finite.

You must be a big fan of Origen.

 

[TibiasDad]

It is talking about Christ and Adam. The elder shall serve the younger.... The Eternal serving the finite.

Not quite…and by that I mean not at all!

Doug

 

[praise_yeshua]

You must be a big fan of Origen.

I didn't get it from Origen. I've never read a single source that has said this. I believe it because I studied the Scriptures. I said it publically the first time when I was in my early 20s.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Not quite…and by that I mean not at all!

Doug

I bow to your extensive explanation as to why.

 

[PeanutGallery]

I've seen people claim that this section is not talking about the persons of Jacob and Esau, but the nations.

10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

("the children") is added to the text, but you can't avoid not yet being born nor having done any good or evil. He's talking about Jacob and Esau, not the nations. It can be further applied to the nations, but the context is clearly about the unborn Jacob and Esau. And again, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated” is clearly about the two individuals.

Why is this important? Because the point is "that the purpose of God according to election might stand", which says that God made the choice before they were even born.

One cannot ignore the context in regards to two nations, being applied to Rom 9.
Gen 25:22 And the children struggled together within her; and she said, If it be so, why am I thus? And she went to enquire of the LORD.
Gen 25:23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

One cannot ignore the context in regards to two nations, being applied to Rom 9.
Gen 25:22 And the children struggled together within her; and she said, If it be so, why am I thus? And she went to enquire of the LORD.
Gen 25:23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.

I'm not ignoring it. Re-read my post. It can be extended to the nations, and should be since it was the nation that served the other, but the immediate text in Romans refers to the individuals. The immediate point in the text is to establish God's choice in election.

 

[TibiasDad]

I've seen people claim that this section is not talking about the persons of Jacob and Esau, but the nations.

10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

("the children") is added to the text, but you can't avoid not yet being born nor having done any good or evil. He's talking about Jacob and Esau, not the nations. It can be further applied to the nations, but the context is clearly about the unborn Jacob and Esau. And again, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated” is clearly about the two individuals.

Why is this important? Because the point is "that the purpose of God according to election might stand", which says that God made the choice before they were even born.

The reason we say that is that vs 13 is taken from Mal 1:2-3 which is referring to the nations of Esau and Jacob, the Gentiles and Israel as a whole. This, is not referring directly to Jacob and Esau.

Moreover, the first reference is an example of election, God choosing the second born instead of the first against the primogeniture of the culture. The second reference is the continuation of the result in the larger scope of history, ie, “that his purpose in election might stand”.

The ultimate goal of this election is found in Rom 11 where the forsaking of Israel for a time ad bringing the gospel to the Gentiles is explained. This is clearly corporate in nature, not individual election.


Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

I bow to your extensive explanation as to why.

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/jacob-and-esau.860/post-24481

 

[PeanutGallery]

I'm not ignoring it. Re-read my post. It can be extended to the nations, ...

Would it not be the other way around, the context of two nations is taken from Gen 25, then can be extended to persons; however, if one continues to read the context remains nations.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Would it not be the other way around, the context of two nations is taken from Gen 25, then can be extended to persons; however, if one continues to read the context remains nations.

I'm pretty sure Jacob and Esau were born before they founded nations. And God chose Jacob over Esau even before they were born.

 

[PeanutGallery]

I'm pretty sure Jacob and Esau were born before they founded nations. And God chose Jacob over Esau even before they were born.

To what end, since the context is about the nation of Jacob/Israel to be witnesses to the world?

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

To what end, since the context is about the nation of Jacob/Israel to be witnesses to the world?

Which context? In Romans, the context is "in order that God’s purpose in election might stand". It has other consequences, but the statement in Romans couldn't be more clear in the greater context of Romans 9.

 

[DavP]

I'm pretty sure Jacob and Esau were born before they founded nations. And God chose Jacob over Esau even before they were born.

Yes. And that is exactly what Apostle Paul was saying, i.e., that God chose Jacob over Esau even before they were born. Paul is most likely pulling from Malachi 1...

Mal 1:1-3
1 The burden of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi.

2 I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, 'Wherein hast thou loved us?' Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob,

3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.
KJV


Same thing basically happened with Cain and Abel, God did not accept Cain's sacrifice.
Same thing happened with Ephraim and Manasseh. God chose Ephraim the younger over the elder Manasseh (Gen.48).

And folks, the name 'Israel' is the Salvation name in Christ Jesus, and I don't mean the unbelieving Jews either. God gave Jacob the new name Israel to represent Jacob having prevailed, having power with God. What many do not grasp is that The Gospel of Jesus Christ is attached to that name Israel. This is why Apostle Paul used the title "commonwealth of Israel" as a New Covenant label about The Gospel accepted by the Gentiles also. Understanding this expands a greater understanding of why God said He loved Jacob, and chose Jacob even before he was born, pointing to His election and predestination of Jacob and his seed in The Gospel of Jesus Christ. Many try to bring in the JEWS into this to try and strike it down, but the majority of the Jews rejected Jesus Christ, so those Jews who do not believe The Gospel do not represent the chosen seed of Jacob, and shall be 'cut off'.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Yes. And that is exactly what Apostle Paul was saying, i.e., that God chose Jacob over Esau even before they were born. Paul is most likely pulling from Malachi 1...

And Paul is pulling from the OT when he quotes "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy". So, what? The point is God's sovereignty over election.

 

[PeanutGallery]

Which context? In Romans, the context is "in order that God’s purpose in election might stand". ...

Election to what, exactly; election to salvation which is not stated in the context, or election to service as in the elder shall serve the younger?

 

[praise_yeshua]

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/jacob-and-esau.860/post-24481

I don't see anything there about the elder serving the younger. Which is an essential aspect of the prophecy.

 

[praise_yeshua]

And Paul is pulling from the OT when he quotes "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy". So, what? The point is God's sovereignty over election.

I agree. However, you still have the issue of what is election. God does as He pleases. That is Providence. It doesn't not establish the substance of what God choses.