praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Young was printer. He was a compiler.
Jacob and Esau
- Thread starter The Rogue Tomato
- Start date
Young was printer. He was a compiler.
Johann
Well-known member
Show me Scriptures that "time" existed BEFORE the beginning.
Thanks.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Claiming grace for yourself while denying it to others shows exactly were your heart is.
Do you have a problem with English?
Not that you'll ever understand this. You prefer things that feed your ego.
You are incapable of having this discussion. I didn't quote you to have a conversation with you. I responded to show how ignorant you are.
Here you are insisting that God leads all men. You didn't give much thought to this at all.
He is incapable of having the discussion. He isn't a student of the Scriptures.
The fact you make statements that can equally be applied to both of us........... shows just how lost you are in any sense of debate ethics.
You use it to exclude "things" all the time. You have to love how a Calvinist ignores their own doctrines.
Why such instability from you?
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
We've already started. Like I said, as long as you respond to everything I say just like I'm doing to you, then I'm good.
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praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Is Satan older than man? Jesus said that He saw Satan fall. Do you remember where that is? Or do you still believe the Incarnation made Jesus mutable?
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Start with ἀναγγέλλω and make the case for "declaring". Young was a printer.
Johann
Well-known member
This shows me we are ALL students of Scriptures here-no one is above the other.
Johann.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
You posted several of my comments without highlighting what instability you see. I'm not going to try to get in your mind.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
I don't claim authority of any sort. I don't need to. As long you recognize evidence, I'm fine.
As far as knowledge is concerned, I have vastly more knowledge about the Scriptures than any of you. I show it every time I post. I'm not copying and pasting responses from others. I write my own.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
You don't understand.
ἀναγγέλλω is broad. There are plenty of verses throughout the Scriptures that establish "Declaring" as an exaggeration/overstatement.
Johann
Well-known member
You did not answer the question-
The Bible indicates that while the concept of 'time' as we experience it began with creation, God, who is eternal, and the heavenly beings existed outside our temporal framework. Therefore, time in the context of our universe started with creation, but God’s existence transcends this temporal beginning."
Again-show me Scriptures time existed BEFORE the beginning.
Did you miss the logic
No one is saved in eternity
The "election" is to save them later
That is a plan
And your view of election is a plan to save later in time
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
I did answer you but I will try to elaborate.
You're assuming what you just stated is true. I reject this. I'm asking for you to provide the Scriptures that actually establish this.
Let me give an example.
I tell you that I was at the basketball game at the beginning.
This establishes the beginning of the basketball game.
The word "beginning" is relative to man. This is clearly not the beginning for all things relative to God. Nor is the word "beginning" an indication EVERYTHING THAT GOD CREATED throughout HIS existence.
God is HUGE. God has been creating things for a very long time. He is a CREATOR.
There is also a very BIG issue with the claim that God knows everything because He sits "outside of time". No matter how large of knowledge this consists, you have just fully quantified God. While you pretend you believe this is paradoxical, it is not. It is BIG... but it quantifies God's knowledge. The only paradox that CAN exist is to say Time has no measure. Time is limitless.
Your "theological bucket" relative to the qualities of Deity/Divinity in God is too small.
More Scripture......
Eph 3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
Endless ages................................................/time
Does all mean all without exception?
Your logic? Absolutely. LOL
Later from whose perspective?
NO MENTION OF A PLAN
God has, from the beginning. Chosen you for salvation.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
It does within the context of the statement. However, "all of a sort" can be less than "all of a larger sort".
I wish you would at least admit facts like this. This battles that exists among men often causes us to "talk past one another".
Johann
Well-known member
This from ancient rabbinical writings-
The ancient rabbis, particularly those whose teachings are recorded in classical Jewish texts like the Talmud and Midrash, had a nuanced understanding of time. Their discussions often reflected a blend of biblical exegesis, philosophical reflection, and theological insight. Here are some key aspects of their understanding of time:
Creation and Time
The rabbis generally agreed that time began with the creation of the world. This is based on the opening verse of the Torah, "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth" (Genesis 1:1), which they understood to mean that time itself was created when God created the universe.
In Bereshit Rabbah, a midrashic commentary on Genesis, the rabbis discuss the idea that "time" as we know it did not exist before creation. The Midrash often uses the term "before the creation" to denote a state of existence that transcends time as we understand it.
Eternity of God
God’s Eternity:
The rabbis emphasized that God exists outside of time. This is reflected in statements like "God is the Creator of time and exists beyond time."
Psalms 90:2, which states, "From everlasting to everlasting, you are God," was interpreted to mean that God’s existence is eternal and not confined by the temporal framework that binds creation.
Philosophical Reflections on Time
Temporal vs. Eternal:
The rabbis often reflected on the difference between the temporal (this-worldly) and the eternal (other-worldly). Ecclesiastes 3:11, which says, "He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the human heart," was sometimes discussed in terms of humanity's awareness of both the passage of time and the existence of eternity.
In Pirkei Avot (Ethics of the Fathers), time is discussed in ethical terms. Rabbi Tarfon says, "The day is short, the labor vast, the workers lazy, the reward great, and the Master of the house is insistent." This aphorism captures a sense of urgency and the preciousness of time in the context of ethical and spiritual work.
Eschatology and Time
Messianic Time:
The concept of time in relation to messianic expectations was significant. The rabbis believed in a future time of redemption, often referred to as the "End of Days" or "Olam Ha-Ba" (the World to Come). This future period was seen as a transformative era that transcends the current historical timeline.
The Talmud discusses the idea that there is a fixed time for the coming of the Messiah, but it can be hastened or delayed by human actions (Sanhedrin 98a).
Cyclical and Linear Time
Cyclical and Linear Views of Time:
The Jewish calendar reflects a cyclical view of time, with its recurring holidays, Sabbaths, and rituals that commemorate and re-enact sacred history.
Simultaneously, there is a linear progression in Jewish thought from creation through history towards an eschatological goal, culminating in the Messianic era and ultimate redemption.
Practical Observations of Time
Sanctification of Time:
The concept of "sanctifying time" is central to Jewish practice. The observance of the Sabbath (Shabbat) and festivals (Yamim Tovim) reflects the belief that time itself can be made holy.
The daily, weekly, and annual rhythms of Jewish life are infused with rituals and commandments that mark and sanctify time, such as the lighting of Shabbat candles, the blowing of the shofar on Rosh Hashanah, and the recitation of the Shema prayer.
Notable Rabbinic Quotes and Interpretations
Rabbi Akiva: "All is foreseen, but the choice is given" (Pirkei Avot 3:15). This statement addresses the paradox of divine foreknowledge and human free will, which has implications for the understanding of time and destiny.
Bereshit Rabbah 1:4: "God looked into the Torah and created the world." This implies a pre-temporal wisdom and plan that guides the unfolding of time and history.
Conclusion
The ancient rabbis viewed time as a created entity that began with the universe. They believed God exists beyond time, emphasizing His eternal nature. Their reflections on time included ethical considerations, the sanctification of time through religious observance, and eschatological expectations. These perspectives reveal a deep and multifaceted understanding of time, blending biblical exegesis, philosophical inquiry, and theological reflection.
Shalom.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
You forget that I'm well "versed" in Rabbinical "statements". Quote all the Rabbis of choice here. You also know that there is no real evidence of such in Judaism. Judaism does not foster the idea that mankind is the "center" of all of God's creative acts. After all, we know God created angels before mankind.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
I don't know if that's true. One thing that suggests otherwise is
7 Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back, 8 but he was defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.
If Satan is thrown down to earth when he rebelled, that suggests earth existed at the time of his rebellion. That's not a definitive "he was created after the universe", but it may suggest that.
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