Excellent Discussion on OSAS

[Red Baker]

@synery

That possibility is so remote that for all intents and purposes it can be said that our salvation is assured.

synery, what makes our salvation from sin and condemnation secured is not what we have done, nor will do, or will not do, ~ is that Christ alone secured the redemption of our sins by his obedience and righteousness alone, acting as our surety before God's holy, spiritual and good law.

I posted Psalms 89 more than once, with no one attempting to respond concerning those wonderful scriptures.

 

[Red Baker]

@GodsGrace

My bad. Just wanted to point out that we're not Calvinists and...

Forget about being Calvinist, or even an Arminian, what does the word of God teach is all we should be concerned about. There's error in both schools of thoughts.

First, we never had a free will since the fall of our first parents in the Garden of Eden. God's image was lost in Adam's disobedience, and he took on the image of his new master, the devil himself.

retain our free will after salvation

Retain? Scriptures please...oh, I see, you do not have not one! Once a man is born again, that person has a new man created within him that has been created after the image of Jesus Christ, the old Adam, our nature we are born with, God does nothing with, for that man is at enmity against Him and will be so, until the death of this body of sin and death ...... where there is NO good dwelling in our old nature. I know you believe there's some good there, but you are so wrong. Romans 3:10-18.

Fran, you may believe, that I will never question, but your understanding of the truth is seriously lacking. I'm just pointing out a few of your errors.

 

[Red Baker]

@Dizerner

I've already posted it and you left it off the reply... how dishonest of you.

When I say to the wicked,`O wicked man, you shall surely die!'
and you do not speak to warn the wicked from his way,
that wicked man shall die in his iniquity;
but his blood I will require at your hand. (Ezek. 33:8 NKJ)

Sir, the main reason I did not comment on Ezekiel 33:8 was because of what you said:

5. There will be spiritual blood on the hands of every Christian that preaches this lie.

You said there will be spiritual blood on the hands of those who preach eternal security. That's not what Ezekiel is saying. You are adding to what he said, which God's word warns against.

Revelation 22:18​

“For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

The Bible is one book teaching one cohesive truth, and we must be careful not to add or take away from what the holy scriptures teach, and by you use of Ezekiel 33:8 you were guilty of adding to the scriptures your own private thoughts.

Ezekiel 3:18​

“When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.”

I take such scriptures as this one, which said the same as 33:8, and understand them in this sense: There are many wicked ways of wicked me, and we as God children MUST NOT approve of their ways but must speak out and warn them that God's judgment will fall upon their sins if they continue in them.

Example: Sodomy is a wicked sin and we cannot approve of it in any way whatsoever and MUST SPEAK OUT against it. If we keep silent and hold our tongue, then God will hold us accountable. Our righteous life and not accepting their lifestyle may very well be a means that God will use to help them to seek proper help from that sin (s) they are living in in the hour they they desire to be helped.

 

[GodsGrace]

I am sure it is. The pharisees thought the same. Most earthly religions believe this

They're the ones that are growing while Christianity is dying.
BTW,,,,the young who join a church want a church that teaches old-fashioned morality...
that includes good works.

The marraige has not happened yet.

YOUR marriage has not yet happened?
So you're working TOWARD it?
All the more reason to make your spouse happy.

I am a child of God. his son.

He treats me as a father

Did YOUR father expect nothing from you?
Was that helpful in your becoming an adult?

he does not kick me out because I do not do everything he asks. But he will correct me.

Who said God will kick you out if you don't do EVERYTHING He asks you?
Are you Jesus?

But Jesus did give a lesson on this:

The Two Son......which one did THE WILL OF THE FATHER?

Matthew 21:28-32
28 "But what do you think? A man had two sons, and he came to the first and said, 'Son, go work today in the vineyard.'
29 "And he answered, 'I will not'; but afterward he regretted it and went.
30 "The man came to the second and said the same thing; and he answered, 'I will, sir '; but he did not go.
31 "Which of the two did the will of his father?" They said, "The first." Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you that the tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the kingdom of God before you.
32 "For John came to you in the way of righteousness and you did not believe him; but the tax collectors and prostitutes did believe him; and you, seeing this, did not even feel remorse afterward so as to believe him.

lol. Your too focused on works.

As we all should be if God's Kingdom is to be expanded.
And for the good of all humanity.

you sort of remind me of the Pharisee, pumping his chest. saying thank God I am not like the free grace person.

There WERE NO FREE GRACE persons in Jesus' time.

This concept did not enter the church until the 1800's.
It's a belief that NEVER existed in the church.

 

[GodsGrace]

@GodsGrace

Forget about being Calvinist, or even an Arminian, what does the word of God teach is all we should be concerned about. There's error in both schools of thoughts.

First, we never had a free will since the fall of our first parents in the Garden of Eden. God's image was lost in Adam's disobedience, and he took on the image of his new master, the devil himself.

Retain? Scriptures please...oh, I see, you do not have not one! Once a man is born again, that person has a new man created within him that has been created after the image of Jesus Christ, the old Adam, our nature we are born with, God does nothing with, for that man is at enmity against Him and will be so, until the death of this body of sin and death ...... where there is NO good dwelling in our old nature. I know you believe there's some good there, but you are so wrong. Romans 3:10-18.

Fran, you may believe, that I will never question, but your understanding of the truth is seriously lacking. I'm just pointing out a few of your errors.

Thanks for pointing out my errors RB.
So nice of you.

I guess you have everything just perfectly correct.

Unfortunately,,,what YOU believe is nowhere to be found in scripture.

As to Romans 3:10,,,I've posted many verses to you...
ad nauseum...

I won't be repeating them today.
Sorry.

But YOU do not understand Romans 3:10...or many other verses.

You follow a heretical religion that blasphemes God.

No further comment.

 

[Dizerner]

You said there will be spiritual blood on the hands of those who preach eternal security.

If eternal security were a false doctrine—if it were—that would necessarily logically follow.

And it is.

 

[Red Baker]

@civic

Nope I believe in eternal security and free will. Strawman alert

My hope is built upon two immutable acts of God...period! His holy oath and his promises of grace to the seed of Jesus Christ, the same hope Abraham had.

Hebrews 6:13-19~"For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself, Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee. And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise. For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife. Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath: That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us: Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;"

The children of God's promises backed up with this own oath, assures me that eternal life is mine, the evidence is my faith, not as the means thereof, but as the evidence of all of heirs of God's promises, through the redemption work of God's son, Jesus Christ.

 

[Dizerner]

Two faulty ways of arguing OSAS:

1. God is exactly compared with human family:

God has some similarities to human family, but he is not perfectly identical to them. Spiritual relationships do not exactly correspond to human relationships. I cannot count the number of false doctrines that try to utilize this faulty comparison, and say "Well, a human parent wouldn't do this, and a human parent wouldn't do that."

A human parent is not the Infinite Holy Judge and Creator of all the Universe... period. They are not identical. They don't work the same. Humans are fallen and sinful, and they are limited and created. Humans do NOT take the place of God.

2. You have to live thinking you lose your salvation every second:

This is just a misrepresentation. There is grace under NOSAS, and lots of it. You do not need to be able to murder one thousand children and still be saved to be able to claim to have God's grace and God's security. God does not rip away our salvation every mistake we make, and almost no person arguing against OSAS even believes that.

If God promises not to ask of us what we cannot do, and it takes deliberate and pervasive wilful striving after sin to forfeit our salvation, it is not walking on the eggshells of a demand for perfection that offers no security.

So let's make more attempts to steel man the opposition here.

 

[GodsGrace]

No,

Calvinism teaches that we will persevere till the end

By whose power?
By YOUR FAITH....
or because God forces you to?

No it is not.

I have eternal life. My security is in Christ. not myself

You want to have conditional life. feel free.. But you can not take away my security.

So personal.
I'm talking about scripture, which I've posted.
You want to believe in cheap grace and easy believism...
Your prerogative.

Jesus said I have eternal life
He said I will never perish
He said I will never hunger or thrist spiritually)
He said I will (not might) be raised by him
He said I am a child of God
He said I have an Abba Father and not a spirit of fear.
He says I have overcome the world (my faith)
He said I will never be lost
He said he will never leave nor forsake me (and since he is omnipresent. there is no place I can go where he is not there. so he is everywhere I am)

I can go on and on and on.

Sure. Problem is that there are too many verses showing the opposite.
But I don't have enough time today.
How many more times do they need to be posted anyway?

You pick and choose the ones you like and do not harmonize all of scripture.

but eternal security was taught in the early church.

WHERE was eternal security taught in the early church?
Post something please.
Eternal security was NEVER a part of the early church teaching and did not come about till Calvinism.

The Didache​

“Watch for your life’s sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ready, for you know not the hour in which our Lord comes. But you shall assemble together often, seeking the things which are befitting to your souls: for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if you be not made complete in the last time” (Didache 16 [A.D. 70]).

Hermas​

“And as many of them . . . as have repented, shall have their dwelling in the tower [i.e., the Church]. And those of them who have been slower in repenting shall dwell within the walls. And as many as do not repent at all, but abide in their deeds, shall utterly perish. . . . But if any one relapse into strife, he will be cast out of the tower, and will lose his life. Life is the possession of all who keep the commandments of the Lord” (The Shepherd 3:8:7 [A.D. 80]).
My favorite...He was taught by John.

Ignatius of Antioch​

“And pray without ceasing in behalf of other men; for there is hope of the repentance, that they may attain to God. For cannot he that falls arise again, and he may attain to God?” (Letter to the Ephesians 10 [A.D. 110]).

Justin Martyr​

“[E]ternal fire was prepared for him who voluntarily departed from God and for all who, without repentance, persevere in apostasy” (fragment in Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:26 [A.D. 156]).

Irenaeus​

“[T]he ungodly and unrighteous and wicked and profane among men [shall go] into everlasting fire; but [God] may, in the exercise of his grace, confer immortality on the righteous, and holy, and those who have kept his commandments, and have persevered in his love, some from the beginning [of their Christian course], and others from [the date of] their penance, and may surround them with everlasting glory” (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).

Catholicism took it away with their pagan works based Gospel..

but not even that matters legalism was faught by paul in his epistles

licentiousness or easy believism (gnostic belief) was faught by Peter and James and Jude. even John got in on the act.

Obeying Jesus is legalism?
Right. THIS is where your theology brings us.

Happily, more than 53% of Christians believe good works are necessary.
(pew poll).

 

[GodsGrace]

anyone who says salvation can be lost if we do not do something is depending on self

So there are alot of people here who not even do it. but they deny it

I believe those verses

But he is talking to people who are already saved. Not to people still trying to be saved..

RIGHT!
Are you starting to understand??

But scripture does not harmonize with your belief system

your right, Gods grace is sufficient, he will never run out of grace.

so how can we ever run out of forgiveness?

Not to keep our sonship

Teaches legalism is more dangerous

Who is teaching legalism?

I'm saying that we NEED TO OBEY GOD.

Do you not understand the difference?

We are not under THE LAW.
There is no legalism.

Jesus said we must SURPASS the pharisees in

Matthew 5:20
20 "For I say to you that unless * your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.


JESUS said that unless OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS SURPASSES that of the pharisees we will not enter into the Kingdom of heaven.

How do YOU understand this verse?

OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Is Jesus expecting LESS from us or MORE from us?

it points to self Not God

That's not what Jesus taught.
See just above re Matthew 5:20

while one can misrepresent OSAS and try to be licentiousness. it does not negate what it means, We are securie in christ not self

Post some verses that state that we cannot lose our security.

it CANT

because we can not save ourselves. if we can not save ourselves, we can not unsave ourselves

STRAWMAN.
So tired of hearing this.

stop looking at yourself and look and grab onto God.

Eternal life is eternal. forever. it can not be lost. otherwise it is not eternal.

God does not tell us things that are not true..

Right. So start listening to what JESUS taught.

but it does.

It does not teach a works based gospel. it rejects this gospel.. Pauls writting are full of calling out people trying to get to heaven by works, even calling them fools. for having begin in the spirit (faith) and trying to stay or perfect this salvation in the flesh (works)

 

[GodsGrace]

Two faulty ways of arguing OSAS:

1. God is exactly compared with human family:

God has some similarities to human family, but he is not perfectly identical to them. Spiritual relationships do not exactly correspond to human relationships. I cannot count the number of false doctrines that try to utilize this faulty comparison, and say "Well, a human parent wouldn't do this, and a human parent wouldn't do that."

A human parent is not the Infinite Holy Judge and Creator of all the Universe... period. They are not identical. They don't work the same. Humans are fallen and sinful, and they are limited and created. Humans do NOT take the place of God.

2. You have to live thinking you lose your salvation every second:

This is just a misrepresentation. There is grace under NOSAS, and lots of it. You do not need to be able to murder one thousand children and still be saved to be able to claim to have God's grace and God's security. God does not rip away our salvation every mistake we make, and almost no person arguing against OSAS even believes that.

If God promises not to ask of us what we cannot do, and it takes deliberate and pervasive wilful striving after sin to forfeit our salvation, it is not walking on the eggshells of a demand for perfection that offers no security.

So let's make more attempts to steel man the opposition here.

I hate analogies for the very reasons you're stating.
I also agree with your no. 2....that type of thinking is nonsense.

But sometimes it's so tiring to go over the same stuff for years and pretty frustrating how some
do not even believe JESUS HIMSELF !

 

[GodsGrace]

if this is how we are to enter the heavenly gate, and spend eternity with heaven.

By doing the best we can.

ouch..

You're free to go beyond doing the best you can....

IF YOU CAN.

 

[GodsGrace]

you did not read a thing I said did you.

Again, You want to try to keep yourself saved by works. feel free. do not let me stop you.. I will wish you luck, Because in my heart I know no matter how hard you work. you will fail to do what you want.

But if you want to continue to falsely accuse me of things.. then like your brother. there is really not much more we can say.

study the jews. Study why they rejected christ

Study why Christ rejected them and told them all their great deeds will not save them..

then look to self. and ask yourself the same questions. Is jesus talking to you also?

because when I see the jew. and I see you. I see different forms of religious teaching. But I see the same gospel

its all about me and what I do. not about god and what he did

Apparently you also do not listen or hear what I post.
And my brother....he won't join a forum.
He thinks it's not too good for Christians to argue among themselves...
and he knows the bible really well too...

God did for you EG.....
now YOU do for HIM.

 

[GodsGrace]

Reread what you yourself wrote. You said that I made a statement about scripture, and you made a statement. It is there. You said you stated something. I just said, thank God that doesn't matter. Scripture speaks for itself. What did Jesus tell these lawless people, clearly, succinctly, without stuttering. I... have... NEVER... known... you. Jesus is VERY clear. He never had a relationship with them,

Where in Matthew 7:23 does it state what you've posted above?
Please post it.

This is what Matthew 7:23 states:

23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
And you're right....JESUS IS VERY CLEAR in all He tuaght.
So in Matthew 7:23 Jesus states EXACTLY WHY He never knew them.

It's because THEY WERE LAWLESS.

That's ALL Jesus states.
You are adding to scripture.

He never fellowshiped with them, etc. They were never saved to begin with. It is VERY clear.

If it's very clear, you're going to have to show it...
because NOWHERE in Matthew 7 does it state what you think it states.

That is why I said, it isn't who you claim to know, it is who knows you. It's like the clingy guy who hangs around with some celebrity, and when they get to the night club door, that celebrity tells the bouncer that he doesn't know the guy. They were never friends. He is just clingy and won't go away.

Yes. That's how reasoning works, and God did say, "Come, let us reason together". I can't prove a negative assertion, which would be to prove they weren't saved. I can, however, undermine the premise of your argument, which makes your argument unsound.

Then please undermine it with scripture and not with your opinions.

I'm waiting for what Jesus stated about they. I will give you a hint and tell you that everything you posted past here had nothing to do with they.
"21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’"

What did Jesus state about they? "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you..." He never knew them. That is what Jesus states of "they". When reading the passage above, there is no mention of prodigal sons, or soils, so your argument is flawed.

Wow. So you pick the verses you like and forget about soil and prodigal sons and everything else Jesus taught.

Let's look again:

Matthew 7:21
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Notice who will enter into heaven:
Those who do the will of the Father.
What will?
What must they do?
Is it sufficient to cast out demons?
Is it sufficient to prophecy?
Is it sufficient to do miracles?
Is the above the will of the Father?
Or is Jesus speaking of something else?
A clue is in Matthew 5:20
20 "For I say to you that unless * your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Unless OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS SURPASSES that of the pharisees, we will not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.
What does that mean?
And notice Jesus is speaking of OUR righteousness....not His.

(the answer is found in the same chapter of Matthew).

When you are going to tell us what Jesus states about "they", you have to tell us what Jesus states about "they". Did the prodigal son prophesy in Jesus name? Cast out demons in Jesus name? Do many wonders in Jesus name? How about the rocky soil? No? Neither of them did? Then it is not Jesus stating about "they". Completely unrelated.

Never heard this before army.
Are you saying Jesus taught stuff He didn't mean??
I don't know what you're talking about.

Does a person have to prophesy to be saved?
Do I need to cast out demons to be saved?
Do I need to do wonder to be saved?

Have YOU done all of the above??

Didn't Jesus state in Matthew 7:22 that it is not these that are going to heaven???

As for lawlessness, that is sin, which is not keeping God's standard/law, which is lawlessness. Depart for Him, you sinners/you who practice lawlessness/you workers of iniquity. Those whose lives are devoted to sin, who practice sin. That is the sign of a non-believer. Not everyone who says 'Lord, Lord' will be able to sneak by Christ, as not all who say 'Lord, Lord' actually recognize Him as Lord. If you are one who practices lawlessness, you do not recognize Jesus as Lord.

Agreed.
So you accept Jesus not only as your Savior but also as your Lord?
Then we agree.

First of all, by stating that Jesus is saying the Prodigal Son was saved, became unsaved, and was saved again, is to say that Jesus claims the Father to be a liar.

Wow. army.
Is it not what Jesus said?
How do YOU interpret what Jesus said?

Here it is again:
Luke 15:24
24 for this son of mine was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.' And they began to celebrate.
Was Jesus not able to explain Himself?
He is saying the Father is a liar in Luke?

What does Hebrews clearly state about this situation? If someone is "saved" (as you seem to define the passage in Hebrews) and "falls away", there is no place of repentance for them.

army....
you need to go and learn Theology 101 before making such statements.
You are misunderstanding Hebrews.....
You are worse than the pharisees by this misunderstanding.
Read some commentaries....do something to understand scripture better.
You cannot take ONE VERSE and make a doctrine out of it.

Read 1 John chapters 1 and 2 that will help you to understand better.

1 John 1:7-10
7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

There is no more sacrifice. God will not sacrifice His Son again, and put His Son to open shame. Your statement has God putting His Son to open shame. GOD WILL NOT DO THAT. If you become apostate, you are damned without hope. The only hope is that you were never saved in the first place, and you have not outright, with finality, rejected the gospel. (Hebrews again.)

See above.
Report back when you understand Hebrews....

As for the soil, notice how there is no root. These people hang around the church, they "believe" what they here, but when it comes down to it, the gospel has never taken root, they have never come to salvation. Simply stated. The only soil that speaks to one who is saved is the good soil. God can change the other soils into good soil, but it doesn't mean He will.

Good try.

But again,,,you are not heeding the words of Jesus.

JESUS said that they believed for a while.
Is a believer born again?
Or is a believer NOT born again?

 

[GodsGrace]

Oh the irony. You filter scripture through the lens of works-righteousness which explains your eisegesis. I properly harmonize scripture with scripture (hermeneutics) before reaching my conclusion on doctrine (2 Timothy 2:15) and I squirm around nothing. You just don't understand.

Yes, I hear this from those that like to understand verses their very own way.....
which IS eisegesis.

You twist scripture to suit what YOU believe.
And, as usual, you're insulting and assume only YOU have the truth...
when, actually, you are far from it.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I understand what you're saying....
you believe James is referring to a CLAIMED faith
and THAT CLAIMED faith cannot save.
It's not that I don't understand your point.

But there are too many other verses in James that contradict what you believe.

whatever.

I have come to understand you will see what you want to see.

I just take the word., and see what it says.

the whole point of James conversation in that conversation is people who say they have faith, but have no works, and asks the question. can that faith save them

no need to go anyplace else. No need to search all over to find something that will help support your view or mine. just read the rest of the text. and see what James said.

In James 1:22 James tells us not to be only hearers of the word but doers of the word.

why would James say this? Maybe just maybe there were people there who CLAIMED they had faith, but were hearers only not doers?
fits right into my interpretation.

1:25 says to be an effectual doer.

1:27 we're instructed to visit orphans and widows and to keep oneself unstained from the world.
(repeating Matthew 25, Jesus' instructions).


Verse 2:15-16 He teaches that we're to clothe and feed and not just say GO IN PEACE. IOW,,,put our faith to work.

Exactly. these people were not doing this.

Not only this, they were giving praise and favoritism to the wealthy, while sticking the poor in the back of the room.

Thats the whole pople James is making. You want to show your faith is real. do these things. if your not doing them. why not?

2:17: Faith without works is dead,,,,being by itself. Faith by itself is dead if not accompanied by works.

2:20 Faith without works is useless.

2:21 Abraham was justified by works when offering Isaac.

2:22 Faith functions with works. As a result of Abraham's work...faith was perfected.

Abraham was justified in Gen 15. He offered his son decades later.

so the justification James spoke of here can not be eternal life.

His FAITH was perfected. His faith. which saved him, was shown in his life to grow strong, and in the end, it was perfected as he offered up his son.

Abraham had living faith. pr0oved by his works..

But he was saved before he did any works

we all are.

In view of all the other statements of his...we can understand that FAITH without works is a dead faith.
NOT THAT faith (just the claim of faith).

And THAT FAITH can not save.

because it did not repent, it did not trust God. It did not have any assurance or confidence. it trusted in self. hence why they did what they wanted in the flesh. and were hearers only not doers.

Faith,,,real faith,,,without works is a dead faith being by itself.
IOW...faith, by itself,,,,is useless,,,,is must be accompanied by good deeds/works.

when you add the word MUST, your adding self righteousness.

Faith, true living faith, is never by itself

Are you telling me you trust your husband, or parents and just hear what they say to you and NEVER do anything they say or support them, or try to honor them with your deeds?

I only ask you because from your words you are telling me that is possible

I am telling you it is not

If you told me you had faith in your parents and NEVER did anything they asked. rebelled against them on a continually bases. did nothing to honor them.,

I would call you admitting that you trusted them a lie. Because if you really trusted them, you would not do these things you would at least honor them in some ways, at least do some of the things they say.. Show some semblance that you really do trust them, it is not just words.

thats in effect what James is saying

 

[GodsGrace]

James White? He's gone on record that he refuses to debate Greek Orthodox Scholars. I'm sure it has to do with their knowledge of Greek and his relative lack of it.

Agreed.
Some really know Greek...
some make believe they do.
This is exactly what I was referring to.

Some use Strong's which is sorely lacking.
Some use some scholar's book...which will be prejudiced to their own belief system.
This is why it takes TWO SCHOLARS to debate any verse.....

That was my only point.
Knowing Greek would be great.

I'm not against knowing Greek or using it.
I know a Greek scholar and have spoken to him about this many times
and I know it's not as easy as some might believe it is.
He tried to explain the aorist tense to me one time,,,and I just gave up.
It has nothing to do with time or tense.

Anyway, I'm rambling.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

How does God know we will obey Him? Was not really a question.
My bad. Just wanted to point out that we're not Calvinists and retain our free will after salvation.

I am not a calvinist either. and yes I have free will

But God knows what you will chose of your free will. all of it.

He does not for ordain or cause it. He allows it to happen.

he just is not surprised by it.

He knew David would commit adultery with another mans wife (basically with his position forced rape) get her pregnant and kill her husband when he called him a man after his heart.

He knew Abraham would laugh at him, commit adultery with his wife's maiden, and all the other sins he committed when he declared him righteous in Gen 15 because Abraham trusted God in what he said. just because God knows what you will do 20 years from now at 5: 00 in the morning does not mean you do not have free will.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

You didn't answer if you believe Paul when he said that the Nations as doers of the Law will be justified. If you can't answer that then of course you will not seek guidance from me.

please go away, I am sick of your false accusations

If you do not like what I am saying, fine

But stop pushing..

Bullys do this, are you a bully. having to push you view and attack everyone who does not agree?

this is truly your last warning, if you even mention this one more time, I will report you for harassing

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Paul was giving a hypothetical to which he ended "by the works of the Law NO FLESH shall be justified, and EVERY MOUTH be stopped." It was a hypothetical perfection no human ever reaches.

thank you