The Soteriology of Ignorance: Why to Preach?

[Doug Brents]

Will you go around telling thousands of Mormon ladies: Hey listen, You are unable to love genuinely, or to show genuine care, kindness, perseverance, temperance, because that is reserved to Baptist ladies?

Not at all. I would tell these mormon ladies (and men, not sure why you are so fixated on the ladies) that they must be born again. If they have believed the mormon false doctrine of a "second gospel" then they are accursed (Gal 1:9). So they must covert to follow Christ or remain accursed. The same goes for the muslem, bahai, catholic, buddhist, atheist, and all other religions.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Not at all. I would tell these mormon ladies (and men, not sure why you are so fixated on the ladies) that they must be born again. If they have believed the mormon false doctrine of a "second gospel" then they are accursed (Gal 1:9). So they must covert to follow Christ or remain accursed. The same goes for the muslem, bahai, catholic, buddhist, atheist, and all other religions.

But then, if you recognize that a Mormon lady is expressing genuine love, joy, peace, kindness, self-control, and all the fruits of the spirit, why would you tell her that she must be born again? Isn't she already proving she is born again?

Suppose that she abandons the Mormon church and converts into Methodism today, March 4 2025.
Would that mean that TODAY all her love, joy, peace, kindness, self-control, have become overnight fruits of the spirit, but that YESTERDAY, March 3 2025, all of those fruits were not a fruit of the spirit?

Please reflect on that.
I invite @civic to the discussion of this case.

 

[Doug Brents]

But then, if you recognize that a Mormon lady is expressing genuine love, joy, peace, kindness, self-control, and all the fruits of the spirit, why would you tell her that she must be born again? Isn't she already proving she is born again?

Suppose that she abandons the Mormon church and converts into Methodism today, March 4 2025.
Would that mean that TODAY all her love, joy, peace, kindness, self-control, have become overnight fruits of the spirit, but that YESTERDAY, March 3 2025, all of those fruits were not a fruit of the spirit?

Please reflect on that.
I invite @civic to the discussion of this case.

All of it boils down to one truth. Jesus said that she (and everyone else) MUST be born again of water and the Spirit (John 3:5). If she has not been reborn of water and the Spirit then she is not reborn, she is not a new creation, and all of her love, joy, peace, self-control etc. are false and come from a source other than the Spirit.

It is not in "methodism" that we place our trust. It is not Mohammad who died for us. It is not Buddha that is God in the flesh. etc. It is Jesus who is all these things. And if we are not His, if we have not obeyed Him, then we are just fooling ourselves and our "love" is not real, our "joy" is not lasting, our peace is temporary, our self-control is merely "magic". Remember, there are powers in the world that can mimic God's power. The sorcerers in Pharaohs court could do many of the miracles that God gave Moses to do, but they did not do them through God's power. Satan, or one of his minions, was giving them their power, just as he does to people in false religions.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

All of it boils down to one truth. Jesus said that she (and everyone else) MUST be born again of water and the Spirit (John 3:5). If she has not been reborn of water and the Spirit then she is not reborn, she is not a new creation, and all of her love, joy, peace, self-control etc. are false and come from a source other than the Spirit.

But how do you know that?
On which basis can you tell her that she has not been born again of water and the Spirit?
She was baptized, and she received the Holy Spirit by laying of hands.
You can persuade her to abandon beliefs A, B and C. That's what you can do... But you can't tell her that she has not been born again, when it is more than obvious that she has!

It is not in "methodism" that we place our trust. It is not Mohammad who died for us. It is not Buddha that is God in the flesh. etc. It is Jesus who is all these things. And if we are not His, if we have not obeyed Him, then we are just fooling ourselves and our "love" is not real, our "joy" is not lasting, our peace is temporary, our self-control is merely "magic". Remember, there are powers in the world that can mimic God's power. The sorcerers in Pharaohs court could do many of the miracles that God gave Moses to do, but they did not do them through God's power. Satan, or one of his minions, was giving them their power, just as he does to people in false religions.

Then let me change the wording.

The Mormon lady abandons the Mormon church today, March 4 2025, and does not get affiliated to any church. She just believes that Jesus, the Son of God, has died for her sins. That's it.

Would that mean that all the love, peace, joy, kindness, self-control she used to express have become overnight the fruits of the spirit, but that such love, peace, joy, kindness and self-control were not the fruits of the spirit yesterday, March 3 2025?

 

[Doug Brents]

But how do you know that?

Because there is all kinds of evidence (that I won't get into here) that the Word of God (the Bible) is fully trustworthy (and I have staked my eternal soul on that fact.) And the Word of God tells us the truths that I laid out in my former post.

On which basis can you tell her that she has not been born again of water and the Spirit?
She was baptized, and she received the Holy Spirit by laying of hands.
You can persuade her to abandon beliefs A, B and C. That's what you can do... But you can't tell her that she has not been born again, when it is more than obvious that she has!

No, it is not obvious, because she believed in false teachings when she "converted". You cannot be born again in Christ and still believe that Jesus is not God, or that there are other gospels than the one that Paul, Peter, and the other Apostles taught in the first century, etc.

The mormons may be great people, but they believe in things that are expressly condemned in the Word of God, and you cannot be united to God and also hold to those false doctrines at the same time.

Then let me change the wording.

The Mormon lady abandons the Mormon church today, March 4 2025, and does not get affiliated to any church. She just believes that Jesus, the Son of God, has died for her sins. That's it.

Would that mean that all the love, peace, joy, kindness, self-control she used to express have become overnight the fruits of the spirit, but that such love, peace, joy, kindness and self-control were not the fruits of the spirit yesterday, March 3 2025?

You are automatically affiliated with the Church (through God's power, not your own) when you are born again. When this happens, the whole life of the person changes, and the fruit they were producing changes too. It has a different source, a different motivation, and thus a different flavor and result. It is no longer fake, no longer deceitful, no longer a smokescreen. It may look similar, but it is very different fruit.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Because there is all kinds of evidence (that I won't get into here) that the Word of God (the Bible) is fully trustworthy (and I have staked my eternal soul on that fact.) And the Word of God tells us the truths that I laid out in my former post.

No, it is not obvious, because she believed in false teachings when she "converted". You cannot be born again in Christ and still believe that Jesus is not God, or that there are other gospels than the one that Paul, Peter, and the other Apostles taught in the first century, etc.

You can be born again and still be mistaken about thousands of things, Doug.
Being born again means to repent from your past life, and start a new life, loving God through the love you express to your neighbors, producing the fruits of the spirit.
It does not mean being right in 100% of your beliefs.

People born again can believe in Calvinism or in Arminism.
Can believe that the earth was created in six literal days, or in two billion years.
Can believe that women can be leaders of the church, of that they can't.
Can believe that the seventh day is a day to rest, or that the first day is a day to rest.

Do you consider yourself born again? Well, I have news for you: Not all your beliefs are correct. Furthermore, it is impossible that all your beliefs are correct. Your brain is limited. You are biased by what you have been told and you have read, and by thousands of other factors.
And yet, you are born again and a beloved child of God.

So, the Mormon lady of our story could have been born again, EVEN IF SHE WAS MISTAKEN in several doctrines.
The proof of true discipleship is not to be right in all doctrines, but to love. This is what Jesus taught, do you agree?
The proof of the goodness of the tree is in the fruits, not in the orthodoxy of the creed. This is what Jesus taught, do you agree?

You are automatically affiliated with the Church (through God's power, not your own) when you are born again. When this happens, the whole life of the person changes, and the fruit they were producing changes too. It has a different source, a different motivation, and thus a different flavor and result. It is no longer fake, no longer deceitful, no longer a smokescreen. It may look similar, but it is very different fruit.

Are you implying that the love of that Mormon lady was FAKE yesterday, but now that she has abandoned the Mormon Church is REAL, just because she abandoned certain beliefs and got another new beliefs?
Please think again.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

The mormons may be great people,

How can Mormons be "great people" if such "greatness" does not come from God?
Can their own efforts make them "great people"? Can Beelzebul make them "great people"?

Certainly, our own efforts cannot make us holy.
Beelzebul cannot make us holy.
Only the Holy Spirit can make us holy.

So, if you witness a holy life in a lady, please accept that it is the action of the Holy Spirit, and glorify God, without asking for her religious affiliation. Don't go to that person and hand her a quiz with 10 questions on Theology to figure out whether her holiness is true or fake.

I'm not saying that you should not try to challenge her wrong beliefs. No. Please go ahead and preach to her.
What I mean is that you won't address her as if she was lost, damned, or not born again. She is just mistaken. We all are mistaken in something.

 

[Doug Brents]

You can be born again and still be mistaken about thousands of things, Doug.
Being born again means to repent from your past life, and start a new life,

Stop right there. We do not start a new life. We are made, by God, into new people.

loving God through the love you express to your neighbors, producing the fruits of the spirit.
It does not mean being right in 100% of your beliefs.

People born again can believe in Calvinism or in Arminism.

Nope.

Can believe that the earth was created in six literal days, or in two billion years.

Nope.

Can believe that women can be leaders of the church, of that they can't.

Nope.

Can believe that the seventh day is a day to rest, or that the first day is a day to rest.

Yep.

Do you consider yourself born again? Well, I have news for you: Not all your beliefs are correct. Furthermore, it is impossible that all your beliefs are correct. Your brain is limited. You are biased by what you have been told and you have read, and by thousands of other factors.
And yet, you are born again and a beloved child of God.

It is not impossible that all my beliefs are correct. There are many things that we don't have to agree on, and both of us can still be right (the example of eating meat sacrificed to idols in 1 Cor 8 is made). But there are many things that we cannot disagree on. The most important is the fact that Jesus is God who came in the flesh, died, and was resurrected. If we disbelieve that then our faith is completely in vain (1 Cor 15).

Are you implying that the love of that Mormon lady was FAKE yesterday, but now that she has abandoned the Mormon Church is REAL, just because she abandoned certain beliefs and got another new beliefs?
Please think again.

Thinking... Thinking... Yep, no change.

 

[Doug Brents]

How can Mormons be "great people" if such "greatness" does not come from God?
Can their own efforts make them "great people"? Can Beelzebul make them "great people"?

By "great people" I mean, friendly, kind, generous, happy, etc. It does not mean that they are saved. The vast majority of people think they are saved, but Jesus says that the vast majority of people will be lost. Even many who did great works in Jesus' name, and thought they were completely "IN" with Him, but He will say, "I NEVER knew you. Depart from Me you workers of iniquity."

Certainly, our own efforts cannot make us holy.
Beelzebul cannot make us holy.
Only the Holy Spirit can make us holy.

So, if you witness a holy life in a lady, please accept that it is the action of the Holy Spirit, and glorify God, without asking for her religious affiliation. Don't go to that person and hand her a quiz with 10 questions on Theology to figure out whether her holiness is true or fake.

I'm not saying that you should not try to challenge her wrong beliefs. No. Please go ahead and preach to her.
What I mean is that you won't address her as if she was lost, damned, or not born again. She is just mistaken. We all are mistaken in something.

I would certainly address a mormon as if they were lost (I have many times when they come to my door). I have even brought some of them to the truth.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Stop right there. We do not start a new life. We are made, by God, into new people.

I agree.
So, what makes you think that God needs a person to become Calvinist or Arminian in order to make from him a new person?
Or accept or reject that women can be leaders of the church?
Or that earth was created in millions of years and not in six days?

I don't understand what one thing has to do with the other.

It seems that you believe that being born again is about accepting a list of 437 truths and rejecting a list of 821 heresies. (I'm just kidding with the numbers, but you get the idea).
This is not what the Bible and reason teaches.
Did Jesus demand from people to confess certain truths and reject other doctrines in order to heal them, forgive them, bring them peace?
Did Jesus tell Nicodemus that, in order to be born again, man had to accept 437 truths and reject 821 heresies?

It is not impossible that all my beliefs are correct. There are many things that we don't have to agree on, and both of us can still be right (the example of eating meat sacrificed to idols in 1 Cor 8 is made). But there are many things that we cannot disagree on. The most important is the fact that Jesus is God who came in the flesh, died, and was resurrected. If we disbelieve that then our faith is completely in vain (1 Cor 15).

OK, you have set three doctrines: that Jesus is God who came in the flesh, died and resurrected.
So, why did you answer "Nope" to other theological dilemmas, like Calvinism vs Arminism, or the leadership role of women in the church, or the number of days of the creation?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

By "great people" I mean, friendly, kind, generous, happy, etc. It does not mean that they are saved. The vast majority of people think they are saved, but Jesus says that the vast majority of people will be lost. Even many who did great works in Jesus' name, and thought they were completely "IN" with Him, but He will say, "I NEVER knew you. Depart from Me you workers of iniquity."

The verse you quoted says "workers of iniquity".
Those people will not be condemned because they were mistaken in some doctrines. They will be condemned because they did evil things, which proved they were not saved.

A Mormon will not be condemned because she believed that Moroni showed Joseph Smith where the golden plates were buried.
A Mormon will be condemned because she didn't feed the hungry, or dressed the naked, or helped those in need.

Matthew 25 offers a good panorama of what is the basis upon which Jesus declares some people saved and other people damned.
Has it to do with the doctrines they uphold? Or with the way they treated people in need?

 

[Doug Brents]

I agree.
So, what makes you think that God needs a person to become Calvinist or Arminian in order to make from him a new person?
Or accept or reject that women can be leaders of the church?
Or that earth was created in millions of years and not in six days?

Because there are explicit instruction on these topics in Scripture. And the trust of God means the trust of His Scripture.

I don't understand what one thing has to do with the other.

It seems that you believe that being born again is about accepting a list of 437 truths and rejecting a list of 821 heresies. (I'm just kidding with the numbers, but you get the idea).
This is not what the Bible and reason teaches.
Did Jesus demand from people to confess certain truths and reject other doctrines in order to heal them, forgive them, bring them peace?
Did Jesus tell Nicodemus that, in order to be born again, man had to accept 437 truths and reject 821 heresies?

OK, you have set three doctrines: that Jesus is God who came in the flesh, died and resurrected.
So, why did you answer "Nope" to other theological dilemmas, like Calvinism vs Arminism, or the leadership role of women in the church, or the number of days of the creation?

No, He told people to follow Him. You cannot follow Him if you are going off on your own path. If you believe things that are expressly taught against, like having another gospel, or that Jesus only died for "the elect" instead of all people, or that women can be Elders in the Church, then you are not following Him.

The verse you quoted says "workers of iniquity".
Those people will not be condemned because they were mistaken in some doctrines. They will be condemned because they did evil things, which proved they were not saved.

EVERYONE is a worker of iniquity until they are born again. These people THOUGHT they were born again, but they had deceived themselves. They THOUGHT they were doing good works. They THOUGHT they had the fruit of the Spirit. They even did miracles and great works in His name. BUT, He NEVER knew them. They had not been born again. And because they had not been born again, they were STILL workers of iniquity, and that had never changed in them.

A Mormon will not be condemned because she believed that Moroni showed Joseph Smith where the golden plates were buried.
A Mormon will be condemned because she didn't feed the hungry, or dressed the naked, or helped those in need.

No. She (and they all) will be condemned because they have not trusted in Jesus (the real Jesus, not just the one Joseph Smith made up).

Matthew 25 offers a good panorama of what is the basis upon which Jesus declares some people saved and other people damned.
Has it to do with the doctrines they uphold? Or with the way they treated people in need?

The works they did have value because they were in Christ, and if they were not in Christ then they had no value. Matt 25 cannot be taken as if in a vacuum, away from the rest of Scripture.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Because there are explicit instruction on these topics in Scripture. And the trust of God means the trust of His Scripture.

No, He told people to follow Him. You cannot follow Him if you are going off on your own path. If you believe things that are expressly taught against, like having another gospel, or that Jesus only died for "the elect" instead of all people, or that women can be Elders in the Church, then you are not following Him.

In that case, my friend, you would have to create a list of 834 doctrines that the lady should believe, and a list of 2557 doctrines that a person should reject, for you to consider her "born again".
Interestingly, the list of other of your Christian fellows would be different than your list. Every one would have a different list.
So, how many items are in your list: three or 834?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

EVERYONE is a worker of iniquity until they are born again. These people THOUGHT they were born again, but they had deceived themselves. They THOUGHT they were doing good works. They THOUGHT they had the fruit of the Spirit. They even did miracles and great works in His name. BUT, He NEVER knew them. They had not been born again. And because they had not been born again, they were STILL workers of iniquity, and that had never changed in them.

We know they were not born again because they were still evildoers.
If the Mormon lady is no longer an evildoer we can know she is born again.

No. She (and they all) will be condemned because they have not trusted in Jesus (the real Jesus, not just the one Joseph Smith made up).

The proof that the Mormon lady follows the TRUE JESUS is that she obeys his command and loves each other as Jesus told her.
Any person who does not follow this command, follows a FALSE JESUS.

So, the truth or falsehood of your discipleship is not based on your dogma about Jesus, but on whether you treat other people as if they were Jesus. This is sound doctrine, attested by Jesus Himself.

The works they did have value because they were in Christ, and if they were not in Christ then they had no value.

If they had not been in Christ, they would not have fed the hungry. We know they were in Christ because they fed the hungry.

• Mathew 25:31-46 is the longest passage in all the Bible that presents the criteria upon men are judged.
• Mathew 25:31-46 was uttered by Jesus Himself, who knew of salvation better than anyone else
• Mathew 25:31-46 presents a UNIVERSAL judgement as it says that "all nations" were gathered
• Mathew 25:31-46 is not taken in isolation. It is consistent with the passages I have already quoted: Jesus said that He would reward men according to their works. He said that the sign of true discipleship was loving each other. He said that such was his new comandment. And the passages in 1 John teach that we know we have passed from death to life in which we love our brothers.

In conclusion: you have absolutely no biblical, rational or ethical reasons to say that a Mormon lady who is expressing the fruits of the Spirit is not born again, or not saved, or not follower of the true Jesus. That would be denying the work of the Holy Spirit. It would be absurd and evil. Being mistaken about certain doctrines does not prevent God from forgiving and transforming a person into a new person. That includes you and me.

 

[Doug Brents]

We know they were not born again because they were still evildoers.
If the Mormon lady is no longer an evildoer we can know she is born again.

Again, you have it backwards. If she is born again, then she is no longer an evildoer.

The proof that the Mormon lady follows the TRUE JESUS is that she obeys his command and loves each other as Jesus told her.
Any person who does not follow this command, follows a FALSE JESUS.

There are many, mormons for example, who follow a false Jesus but still act in good ways. It is not the actions that make them good. It is the goodness of Jesus that makes the people good.

If they had not been in Christ, they would not have fed the hungry. We know they were in Christ because they fed the hungry.

• Mathew 25:31-46 is the longest passage in all the Bible that presents the criteria upon men are judged.

irrelevant

• Mathew 25:31-46 was uttered by Jesus Himself, who knew of salvation better than anyone else
• Mathew 25:31-46 presents a UNIVERSAL judgement as it says that "all nations" were gathered

ok.

• Mathew 25:31-46 is not taken in isolation. It is consistent with the passages I have already quoted: Jesus said that He would reward men according to their works. He said that the sign of true discipleship was loving each other. He said that such was his new comandment. And the passages in 1 John teach that we know we have passed from death to life in which we love our brothers.

While this is may be the "longest" teaching on the Judgement, it is by no means the only one, nor does it present all the criteria upon which one will be judged. As pointed out before, John 3:18 and following also bear on how, and against what, we will be judged.
Although those who have believed in Jesus have already been justified by faith (Rom. 5:1) and will not face condemnation on the final day (John 5:24; Rom. 8:1, 33), God will still judge their works (Rom. 14:10–12; 2 Cor. 5:10) and reward them accordingly (Matt. 6:1–6, 16, 18; 10:41–42).

In conclusion: you have absolutely no biblical, rational or ethical reasons to say that a Mormon lady who is expressing the fruits of the Spirit is not born again, or not saved, or not follower of the true Jesus. That would be denying the work of the Holy Spirit. It would be absurd and evil. Being mistaken about certain doctrines does not prevent God from forgiving and transforming a person into a new person. That includes you and me.

Being mistaken about certain doctrines does indeed prevent God from forgiving a person. Read the parable of the unforgiving servant (Matt 18). Jesus says that if we do not forgive then we will not be forgiven, and He applies that to the Apostles themselves in addition to everyone else. So being mistaken about the necessity of forgiveness does indeed prevent God from forgiving us. And there are other examples as well.

PF, you are trying to make it seem like every religion out there, and every belief, and every "path to salvation" is equal. But they are NOT. There is ONLY one way to be saved, and only one savior in whom to trust. The mormon faith won't do it; the muslum faith won't do it; the bahai faith won't do it; ONLY full surrender to Christ Jesus will do it.

 

[ProDeo]

If they had not been in Christ, they would not have fed the hungry. We know they were in Christ because they fed the hungry.

• Mathew 25:31-46 is the longest passage in all the Bible that presents the criteria upon men are judged.
• Mathew 25:31-46 was uttered by Jesus Himself, who knew of salvation better than anyone else
• Mathew 25:31-46 presents a UNIVERSAL judgement as it says that "all nations" were gathered
• Mathew 25:31-46 is not taken in isolation. It is consistent with the passages I have already quoted: Jesus said that He would reward men according to their works. He said that the sign of true discipleship was loving each other. He said that such was his new comandment. And the passages in 1 John teach that we know we have passed from death to life in which we love our brothers.

By your logic Muslims doing good works are in Christ, I think not, self-explanatory.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

By your logic Muslims doing good works are in Christ, I think not, self-explanatory.

I'm not referring just to "doing good works", but manifesting the genuine love that leads them to do such good works.
Paul taught that we could give all our money to the poor, but if we don't have love, it is worthless.

To your question, Yes, if a Muslim bears the fruits of the Spirit, she is in Christ and has passed from death to life. No doubt about it.

Now I have a question for you, my friend: Do you believe in the existence of Muslim ladies who express genuine love, as Paul describes in 1 Corinthians 13, and genuine joy, peace, kindness, etc.?

If you say that a Muslim lady is doomed to express only fake love, fake self-control, fake patience, fake kindness, fake peace, fake joy, until she confesses the creed of Evangelicals or Lutherans, then I will ask you how you came to believe that, since when you were a kid, you didn't think that way.

 

[ProDeo]

To your question, Yes, if a Muslim bears the fruits of the Spirit, she is in Christ and has passed from death to life. No doubt about it.

Thank you for your willingness to answer my question.

I am sorry, but I don't subscribe to your Baha'i faith, Scriptures teaches -

Ex 20:3 - You shall have no other gods before me.

That excludes Islam.

Simple.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Thank you for your willingness to answer my question.

I am sorry, but I don't subscribe to your Baha'i faith, Scriptures teaches -

Ex 20:3 - You shall have no other gods before me.

That excludes Islam.

Simple.

Thanks for your candid post.
It may surprise you that Muslims worship the same God that you and I worship.
The Only Creator and Sustainer of the Universe. The one you and I pray every day. The one in which we live, move and have our existence.
The Only and True God, that Jesus said to be The Father. The One Jesus called "My God" five times in the Bible. The one he prostrated towards, with his face on the ground, more or less like Muslims do.

So, a good Muslim has no God other than God. That's the first and most important tenet of their faith.

But going back to the topic, if that Muslim lady were having as god other god, say, popularity, money, pleasures, fashion, etc. she wouldn't be bearing the fruits of the spirit.
So, by showing the fruits of the Spirit, this Muslim lady proves that she has no god other than God.

Remember: According to Jesus, whose words you treasure, you should judge the tree by its fruits, not by its creed. Satan can confess a perfect creed, and that doesn't save him.

 

[Studyman]

On the contrary, I believe that the vast majority of people on earth are ignorant in 90% of the doctrines discussed in this Forum that are considered to be clear in the Bible. One thing is to have heard of something, and another different thing to know it.

Let me take you as an example. my brother. You are a person very interested in religion. So interested, that you visit this Forum regularly and read the Bible and think about these things regularly.

I am not interested in "Religion", I'm interested in God's Judgments, and instruction in righteousness. A "Religion" is an organized group of folks who have created their own judgments and instruction in righteousness. Caleb and Joshua belonged to the Church of God. The Israelites who wanted to stone them for trusting God, was "a religion".

Well, let me ask you:

What do you really know about Bahá'u'lláh and His Message?

So, even a person like you, who interacts regularly with a Baha'i like me, perhaps has no real knowledge about Bahá'u'lláh... and frankly, perhaps not a lot of interest in knowing. It is not that you are lazy or indifferent to truth. I am sure you are diligent and not indifferent to truth. It is just that you have already found truth and joy and love in God and Jesus Christ within the framework you believe in, and that's enough for you.

People in this Forum who have digged into websites or Internet information about the Baha'i Faith have mostly done it with the purpose of
refuting my propositions and/or under the basic premise that the Baha'i Faith must be wrong. In other words, with a bias.

It is a widespread practice of the many different religious sects and businesses that make up this world's religious system, to compete against one another for contributing members, "With Bias".

You have shown Bias against the Bible on this forum and have promoted that the "Way of the Lord" as described in the Bible, as simply just another "religion", no different than the "religions" of Egypt or Rome or China.

You are free to adopt this religious philosophy if you want my friend. And perhaps it doesn't matter at all.

But I have chosen to "Yield myself" to the God of Abraham, as instructed and described in the Holy Bible. Not "join myself" to the popular and seductive religious philosophies of this world's many different religious sects and businesses which exist in the garden God placed me in.

I'm giving this just as an example.

Now go to the streets and plazas or Internet forums of say, cars or sports, or science, and find out how much the people know about God and Christ and the Bible.

Anyone one who wants to know about God or the Bible or the Prophesied Advocate between God and man can find Him, in my view. That the masses are not interested in truly knowing Him is shown from the very beginning of the bible. Why would I be surprised that there are men professing to know God in the world God placed me in, that doesn't really know about the Bible, or the God described therein, or the witness of the Christ as recorded? Isn't this the very reason for the Bible, "That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works"?

And isn't it true that EVERY religious sect and business of this world's religious system, tells those who adopt their philosophies, and contributes to them financially that they will receive God's Blessings abundantly, and in the end, eternal life?

Why then, would a person who has been convinced of these things, be concerned with "Knowing the Bible" or the God or the Christ described therein? Haven't they all been told by their adopted religions that, as Jeremiah prophesied, "and they say unto everyone that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you". Isn't that the same thing the serpent convinced Eve of?

The prevalent notion about the Bible, for example, would be something like this:

"The Bible is a book that speaks about God in dense, obscure terms that make it boring and difficult. I don't think I need to read it or understand it in order to be a good person. I have heard portions of it in some popular sayings, I guess, or at church, when I have attended a wedding. Some things it says are cool, but I'm not so sure about the rest. I suppose it is at odds with science or modern thought"​

Sure Pancho. There are "many" such thoughts and human reasoning exposed in the Bible.

"And when the woman saw that the tree was "good for food", and that it was "pleasant to the eyes", and a tree to be "desired to make one wise", she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

2 Kings 5: 10 And Elisha sent a messenger unto him, saying, Go and wash in Jordan seven times, and thy flesh shall come again to thee, and thou shalt be clean. 11 But Naaman was wroth, and went away, and said, Behold, I thought, He will surely come out to me, and stand, and call on the name of the LORD his God, and strike his hand over the place, and recover the leper. 12 Are not Abana and Pharpar, rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? may I not wash in them, and be clean? So he turned and went away in a rage.

So my friend, there is no reasoning of men, no temptation, no circumstance that I will encounter in my life, that the Holy Scriptures do not address. But if a person is only using select scriptures to justify themselves, or their religious sect, they will miss the Spiritual lessons God's Inspired Word was written to give us. This is why, in my view, Jesus said to live by "Every Word" of God.

With such thinking in mind, why would you think that the average person actually KNOWS and UNDERSTAND (leat alone accept to be true) what God demands in the Bible?

I know why the Bible teaches men reject what is written in the Bible.

Jer. 23: 16 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD. 17 They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you.

Jer. 50: 6 My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace.

Matt. 7: 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Matt. 24: 4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man "deceive you". 5 For many shall come "in my name", saying, I (Jesus) am Christ; and shall deceive many.

This is why I trust what is written, more than the promoters of the various religious philosophies and traditions of the religious sects and businesses that make up the religious system of this world.

Now let's take as an example a group of people who ARE religious, but profess a different religion, say, the Sikhs.

The prevalent notion about the Bible for a Sikh would be something like this:

"The Bible is a book of Jews and Christians that I respect. Jesus was a kind of guru, so I guess the Bible must contain very beautiful statements about God, that must be very useful for Christians to guide their life. I have read just to little, to be sincere.... just some portions from the gospels. This is because, as a Sikh, I spend most of my time meditating in the words of the gurus, starting with the Guru Granth Sahib. What I have found in the gospels is consistent with the messages of the gurus.... you know... detachment from the things of the flesh, love, justice, mercy, remembering the name of God... things like that."​

With such thinking in mind, why would you think that the average Sikh actually KNOWS and UNDERSTAND (let alone accept to be true) what God demands in the Bible?

Like the Catholics and the Baha'i and Buddhist, Sikhism is another religious sect of this world. They have their own manmade shrines of worship, they compete with other religions for contributing members, they have their own high days. They have their own websites to promote their religious business.

I don't believe that God is behind the chaos, competition, confusion that defines this world's religious system. There is a spirit behind the "course of this world", but I don't believe it is the God of Abraham. You see God as just another promoter of another religion, and His Son Jesus, just another "guru".

You are free to choose whatever you want in this world. I simply choose to separate myself from this world's religious system and follow the instruction of the Lord's Christ and His Father, the God of Abraham as defined in the oldest written record concerning this God.

What would I say to Him in that day? I rejected your judgments God because the Pope didn't believe in them. Or the Guru Nanak didn't believe in them. Or that Baháʼu'lláh, didn't believe in them. Or John Wesley didn't believe in them.

And now that I know of this God, or believe I am known of Him, why would I turn again to the weak and beggarly elements of this world's religious system?

After 30 years now, I can't claim ignorance. To turn away from the Way of the Lord, now would be rebellion and/or proof of unbelief.